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Old September 5, 2012, 09:40 AM   #26
Magnum Wheel Man
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17 & I only have 4 of them... man... now I have to buy more guns
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Old September 5, 2012, 04:05 PM   #27
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Since the trend seems to be downsizing calibers, perhaps some of the .14 calibers will start to appear. Trends do drive the market.
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Old September 5, 2012, 04:08 PM   #28
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No offense meant... but I doubt if the 17's are selling like the manufacturers would have liked... 14's would probably be less...
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Old September 5, 2012, 05:00 PM   #29
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any smaller than a .17 caliber and we can just clip the end off a nail for bullets
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Old September 7, 2012, 04:23 PM   #30
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Anytime you get involved in high precision and/or long range cartridges, you'll find a plethora of slightly different designs doing basically the same thing. In some cases, designer A's case won't quite fit into shooter B's favorite action so shooter B tweeks the case a little and calls it a different name. The rifle maker sees something he can change and sell under his name so that happens. Soon, there's 1/2 dozen cartridges within a very narrow niche each with it's own following and not a dime's worth of difference unless you're also a shooter in that specific demographic.
If you look at all these 6.5mm choices, you'll find this in spades.
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Old September 7, 2012, 11:27 PM   #31
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I don't like it. I tend to go with old rounds that have been around for a long time, hence the 45/70s Its been around for a long time and will likely still be around long after many of the new wizzbang rounds have gone extinct.
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Old September 8, 2012, 08:31 AM   #32
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I think the 6.5x47 is more of a match case and if you want one your going to have build it. The others like 6.5x284 Norma/6.5 Creedmoore have very limited offering in rifles/ammo.

I don't think the 6.5 are competing for the same buyer like the hunter who would walk into gun shop look at a 308/30-06/300mag/300Wby.

If your looking at match rifles or build that's different.
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Old September 8, 2012, 08:18 PM   #33
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Well, actually, the cartridges aren't really competing unless you can only buy them from a single manufacturer
.

Yes. I would say it is more of a supply and demand issue. I also am not convinced there have been any real improvements for the last 60 yrs. Some of the most popular cartridges today are over 100 years old.
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Old September 9, 2012, 07:31 AM   #34
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That's true, and some are more than 150 years old, though some improvements have been made.

In a sense, there are competing cartridges. Remington wants you to buy their .308 cartridges and Winchester would rather you bought their .308 cartridges. Their is, of course, the supply and demand element. For instance, these days there isn't much of a demand for, oh, .35 Remington, or at least I doubt there is. Yet it's certainly available and not hard to find. The demand is there and it's steady and the quantity sold should be picking up in a month or two but it's not the latest thing on the block. It doesn't rate many posts here. There is a demand, however, and a fairly high demand, I gather, for stuff like 8mm Mauser, .303 British, 7.62x54R and a few others because there are a lot of military surplus rifle enthusiasts out there who like shooting those old bolt actions. But the demand is only for cheap surplus stulff itself. When that dries up, and some of it has already or is beginning to, the shooting will either slow down or the shooters will rearrange their priorities. What happens to be available as surplus changes all the time but supplies are not infinite. Not that many years ago, just about the only source for 7.62x54r ammunition was Norma and it was dear, as in expensive, but rifles in that caliber weren't all that common either.

Chances are, if the demand for .35 Remingon soared for some unforseeable and mysterious reason, Wolf would start selling it. And chances are, some obscure Italian company will offer .41 rimfire one of these days.
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Old September 9, 2012, 01:49 PM   #35
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"That's true, and some are more than 150 years old..."

Name one still popular cartridge that is "over" 150 years old other than the .22 rimfires...

T.
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Old September 9, 2012, 02:36 PM   #36
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Quote:
Name one still popular cartridge that is "over" 150 years old other than the .22 rimfires...
Beyond that, it was muzzle loaders.
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Old September 10, 2012, 07:36 AM   #37
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"Name one still popular cartridge that is "over" 150 years old other than the .22 rimfires..."

150 years ago was 1862.

The self-contained metallic cartridge was literally still in its infancy, having really been introduced by Smith & Wesson in 1857 in the .22 Short. As an aside, the .22 Short is virtually obsolete, while the .22 Long Rifle, introduced in the 1880s, is the most popular cartridge out there.

Boxer and Berdan didn't invent their centerfire priming systems until the late 1860s.

After that, though, things get really interesting, as 1873 brought us the .45 Long Colt and the .45-70, both still quite popular and, as far as I can determine, the oldest cartridges that still maintain a solid degree of popularity.
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Old September 10, 2012, 08:03 AM   #38
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Why eliminate the .22 short? Obviously, that's the oldest metallic cartridge still available, though maybe not so wide available as the .22 long rifle. But it's the one to use if you want to shoot rats in your back yard and get away with it. The introduction of both the .45 Colt and the .45-70 Government in 1873 makes them both 139 years old.

WIthout looking them up, there were a couple of rimfire cartridges that are approaching that 150 year mark, though I suspect it has been a long time since they were commercially available. There was at least .44 Henry. Anyone want to name another ('cause I can't think of one).
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Old September 10, 2012, 08:07 AM   #39
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32 S&W rimfire is likely within a year or two, as old... 32 S&W centerfire is likely about the same age ( or older ) as 45 Colt / 45-70

cartridges like 30 rimfire have been gone for a long time, as are 44 Bulldogs, & other similar early revolver cartridges
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Old September 10, 2012, 08:31 AM   #40
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theres a difference between competition and innovation, these companies arent competing to make something better, theyre taking a side-step
One man's "Better" is another man's "sidestep" ...... the Market will sort that out.

If an offering is truly usefull to enough people, then they will buy it, and the company making it will make money and that is the reason they are doing it in the first place, is it not?

The makers of these cartridges are convinced that their offering is better (or can be marketed so as to be percieved to be better) than their competitors' .... you and your dollars get to vote.
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Old September 10, 2012, 08:49 AM   #41
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This is interesting. The .41 rimfire, which is illustrated on Wikipedia in a box marked ".41 Short Rimfire," was introduced in 1863. The Remington double derringer was manufactured as late as 1935, so the ammunition was probably made up until the war. One might note that the starte of WWII brought about the end of a lot older cartridges. It also said the .44 Henry was manufactured into the 1930s. While not reloadable, it didn't sound like such a bad cartridge. The Cartrwrights used to use it.
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Old September 10, 2012, 09:22 AM   #42
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That's right! If Ben, Haus, and little Joe used the Henry it can't be all bad The Civil War was pivotal. The war started with muzzle loaders, and ended with the Henry, and in only 4 years. "Necessity is the father of invention".
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Old September 10, 2012, 10:18 AM   #43
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Why eliminate the .22 Short?

Because the original challenge was "name one POPULAR..."

The .22 Short hasn't been popular since the Coolidge administration. Or earlier.

Anymore, .22 Short is available largely only through speciality stores or online.

I've not seen .22 Short in a gunshop in over 20 years; I've not seen .22 Short in a store other than a gunshop (local hardware store used to sell ammo when I was a kid) since I was a kid.


"WIthout looking them up, there were a couple of rimfire cartridges that are approaching that 150 year mark, though I suspect it has been a long time since they were commercially available. There was at least .44 Henry. Anyone want to name another ('cause I can't think of one)."

Yes, there are any number of .25., .30, .32, .38, .41, .44, .46, .50, and .56 caliber rimfires that are, or are very close to, 150 years old.

And, other than one of the .32s (.32 Long Rimfire, I think), none have been in production since before World War II, and many dropped out of production before World War I.
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Old September 10, 2012, 10:20 AM   #44
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The .41 rimfire may have been the second to last of the old rimfires in production.

I THINK that Remington, for a short time, loaded it after World War II.
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Old September 10, 2012, 11:33 AM   #45
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Well, obviously the .22 short is seriously underrated.
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Old September 10, 2012, 11:35 AM   #46
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For what, cockroach disposal?
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Old September 10, 2012, 11:41 AM   #47
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Old September 10, 2012, 01:18 PM   #48
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"150 years ago was 1862."

EXACTLY, there are NO still popular cartridges over 150 years old...


"Boxer and Berdan didn't invent their centerfire priming systems until the late 1860s."

Yet the .50-70 came out in the MID 1860's...

Think it was 1866, might have been 1867.


"...as 1873 brought us the .45 Long Colt and the .45-70, both still quite popular and, as far as I can determine, the oldest cartridges that still maintain a solid degree of popularity."

These and the somewhat less popular .44-40 were developed slightly earlier but adopted by US military or introduced to civilians in 1873.

As pointed out this is 139 years and NOT over 150 years ago.

T.

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Old September 10, 2012, 01:38 PM   #49
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WOW... did this thread take a left turn or what
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Old September 10, 2012, 02:15 PM   #50
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I guess I'd better turn my Gallagher in. It's still popular with me, though. It's the only one I can reload without a press. The competition isn't that much better.
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