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Old September 4, 2012, 12:32 PM   #26
hooligan1
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"no responsible hunter would try to take game beyond that range even with bolt actions" hell the key word is what planet are you from? If I get a decent chance at a shot like that I sure am going to take it. I'm pretty responsible... Can't understand why you think that past 300 yds is irresponsible to take a shot if it presents itself,,,, I hope the Varmit hunting groups here don't hear talk like that..... There are alot of Responsible hunters that Cleanly take game out to 500 yds!!! let alone past 300 yds.....???

Yer ,misinformation knows no bounds.
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Old September 4, 2012, 12:51 PM   #27
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It is a compromise, yes, and by design: Anything "cabable of doing a great many things well" must be a compromise.
Back at ya brother

In your quote ya had to go on and add the word "well" at the end didn't ya. It doesn't do a great many things "well". As a matter of fact is doesn't do much more if anything better or even as good as a basic bolt action rifle. Yes, the short barrel is a plus, I love carbines, but it's far from a new concept for shortish barreled bolt action rifles have been around since long before the over priced scouts came out. The Gunsite Scout rifle makes no more sense than the tactical leverguns mossberg is putting out today. Maybe even less sense. Yes, those are the same leverguns getting trashed by about everyone who has ever shot a gun. Yet, Cooper comes out with the scout concept and is declared a genius. Bunch of hogwash. Heck even the Scout rifle is not much more than a modern knock off of the Enfield Jungle Carbine. Far from original buy 30 or 40 years. Fact is that if you want/need a rifle even the slightest bit tactical or defence oriented than a semi is the only way to go. On a compromise gun semi autos make much more serviceable field guns than any bolt action in a defence situation.
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Old September 4, 2012, 01:16 PM   #28
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Coopers Scout concept will do for anything that someone without a Government sponsored supply chain needs done.

Show me a semi-auto in a major caliber that is at once fast handling and less than 9 pounds loaded.

While the Ruger version is overly heavy- the synthetic stock certainly could be made lighter- it pretty well fits Cooper's requirements.
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Old September 4, 2012, 01:36 PM   #29
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Coopers Scout concept will do for anything that someone without a Government sponsored supply chain needs done.
In theory so will a .410 single shot but you won't catch me dead with that as my primary. Getting things done and getting them done well are 2 different things.

Quote:
Show me a semi-auto in a major caliber that is at once fast handling and less than 9 pounds loaded.

While the Ruger version is overly heavy- the synthetic stock certainly could be made lighter-
Mini-30, SKS, to name a couple. Hey, you did say caliber. But tell you what I'll do, I'll show a whole bunch of carbine length bolt action rifles for less money and even less weight since you're willin to sacrifice weight for quick follow up shots.

Quote:
it pretty well fits Cooper's requirements.
Cooper requirements were lame and outdated from the word go. He might of been the greatest rifle guru ever to set foot on this earth but the Scouts a ****. Don't worry, I'll forgive him. Betting even John Moses himself had a **** or 2 in his life. Just the internet wasn't around to claim those turds were the greatest thing since sliced bread.

But to sum things up if you really think you need anything even remotely defence oriented you need something better than a bolt action (personally, I don't want or need any rifle remotely defence oriented, another reason to dislike the Scout). If you need a lightweight field gun than you don't need box magazines, scout scopes, flash hiders and a heftier price tag.

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Old September 4, 2012, 01:49 PM   #30
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In theory so will a .410 single shot but you won't catch me dead with that as my primary. Getting things done and getting them done well are 2 different things.
Now you are being ridiculous- a .410 won't kill a 1,000 pound animal out to 300 meters.....


Quote:
Mini-30, SKS, to name a couple.
I guess you missed the "major" before caliber .... and I would not rely on either of those to take down an elk out to 300, either.

Quote:
Tell you what I'll do, I'll show a whole bunch of carbine length bolt action rifles for less money and even less weight since you're willin to sacrifice weight for quick follow up shots.
Quick follow up shots- that's up to the user. None that you can show me will be able to be quicklly reloaded.

If you don't like the concept, fine ..... but you can't argue that Ruger's GSR comes pretty close to meeting Cooper's requirements, or that if you had to have one gun to do it all in the lower 48, that would be the closest to it, in a production rifle.

Calling the Scout concept names does not change anything..... they work.
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Old September 4, 2012, 01:50 PM   #31
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I might like the idea of the AK if the 308 AR didnt exist. I mean if I was to buy one it would be an Arsenal for what @ $900-$1000 (havent priced in awhile).
Well for @ $100 more I could get a dpms 308 (ar10). Im not knocking the 7.62x39 round but, is there anything it does better than the 308?

As for the Ruger Gunsite, I was just thinking back when I had my Benelli Supernova (GRS and comfortech stock) but thinking I wanted more range than a shotgun. Then started thinking add a bolt gun to reach out if needed. Then I saw the RGS and kinda thought best of both worlds in one gun but, after adding it up. I decided it would be more cost effective to buy the two guns which puts me in the AR range.

Now, Im down to thinking either 308 or 5.56 AR is going to be it.
So I pretty much have to figure out if I want more range or more time shooting.
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Old September 4, 2012, 02:00 PM   #32
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Whoa there killkenny, John Moses Browning didn't develop any a******?????
If so list'em and I'll tell you why they're great!
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Old September 4, 2012, 02:04 PM   #33
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I guess you missed the "major" before caliber .... and I would not rely on either of those to take down an elk out to 300, either.
No, I didn't miss the "major". You said "caliber" and for all practical purposes the 7.62 x 39 and the .308 are the same "caliber".

Quote:
but you can't argue that Ruger's GSR comes pretty close to meeting Cooper's requirements,
You're right on that one. But..............

Quote:
or that if you had to have one gun to do it all in the lower 48, that would be the closest to it, in a production rifle.
I can argue this all day long. A scout rifle is so far down my list of "the one" guns to not even register. I built my "one rifle", a 18.5" Savage 110, and it will do anything I need a rifle to do better than the scout. Weighs less, looks better, handier, etc etc. Heck, even a pig like the AR10 is a better all around gun. So much better that we can almost forgive it's weight.

Tell us one thing a GSR can do better except for faster reloads (a non issue with a bolt action) than something like a Remington M7 or a Hawkeye Compact?

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Old September 4, 2012, 02:25 PM   #34
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Show me a semi-auto in a major caliber that is at once fast handling and less than 9 pounds loaded.
anythingx39 an intermediate round, no matter the bore diameter.... it's about power, and the x39 case does not have the capacity.

Quote:
a 18.5" Savage 110
Why the 110 and not the 10? Or is one of the things you need done is have a huge fireball of wasted/unburned powder?

A Savage 10, like this one here with a 20 inch barrel?:

http://www.steyrscout.org/savscout.htm

Unfortunately, no longer in production ..... and the scope mount was a bit flimsy, from what I've read.

You may be able get one done with a conventional scope mount more to your liking, from their custom shop- contact info at the link.
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Old September 4, 2012, 02:40 PM   #35
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Why the 110 and not the 10? Or is one of the things you need done is have a huge fireball of wasted/unburned powder?
You keep insisting on using the word caliber when what you really mean is cartridge . Then you insinuate that action length has anything to do with cartridge selection. Why a 110? Because it's what I had already. My 110 predates production of the 10. Already in .22-250, a short action cartridge. Converted it to .243, another short action cartridge. I could of just as easily converted it to a .308. Guess what? Another short action cartridge. For the record many many many 110's were chambered in short action cartridges since the only thing Savage made for years was, guess what, the long action 110. Anyway, the difference between a 10 and a 110 has absolutely nothing to do with cartridge efficiency, fireballs or how much unburned powder remains. Chamber, barrels, all the same.

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Old September 4, 2012, 03:21 PM   #36
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Tell us one thing a GSR can do better except for faster reloads (a non issue with a bolt action) than something like a Remington M7 or a Hawkeye Compact?
How is faster reloads a non-issue with a bolt action? Were you to use it for something like 3-Gun Heavy Metal, it would matter. Besides that, the OP stated:

Quote:
So that leaves me with @ $1300 for a long gun for bad times/learning/hunting.
I would think that "bad times" infers fighting, in which case rapid reloads would be a good thing....

Remember- if you only have one gun..... not an AR-15 for this, an AK for that, a bolt gun in 30-06 for something else, an AR-10 for the other thing..... The OP has 1300 bucks for gun, glass and ammo. Entirely possible with the Ruger. Maybe with enough left over to buy a reloading kit.

Aside from more rapid reloads, the Ruger scout comes with iron sights out of the box, which new production Model 7's and Ruger compacts do not..... the Compact Magnum does have irons, but the sight radius is shorter, and the sights are not as robust ....
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Old September 4, 2012, 03:28 PM   #37
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You keep insisting on using the word caliber when what you really mean is cartridge
You are quibbling over semantics now...... you know the 7.62x39 is an intermediate round.

You are right- I assumed a long action cartridge when you stated "Savage 110" ..... but if you could have whatever you wanted, why would you want a long action with a short cartridge in it (other than sentimental reasons)? Longer bolt throw and a couple ounces more weight ..... where's the upside?
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Old September 4, 2012, 03:37 PM   #38
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Show me a semi-auto in a major caliber that is at once fast handling and less than 9 pounds loaded.
Around 7.25 pounds with a 20 rd pmag.

Now, find me a bolt action that weights 7.25 pounds loaded with a 20 round pmag But on a serious note you have a very valid point.
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Old September 4, 2012, 03:48 PM   #39
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You just made my point for me. Maybe faster reloads are important, maybe they aren't, but when it comes down to it if faster reloads are needed than so are faster follow up shots. Thus a HD/SD bolt action rifle with faster reloads is like putting lipstick on a pig. Let alone when we get into crap like the flash hider, scout scopes, etc.

If you have $1300 you don't settle for one gun let alone and over priced compromise.

Not many, if any guns, strike a good balance or compromise. It's just a fact. Until someone comes up with a PC looking, high cap, super accurate, durable, 7lbs semi auto rifle a good gun for lugging around the mountains after goats isn't gonna make a very good SD/HD rifle. Likewise, a FAL, AR , AK, M14 etc isn't gonna make a very good goat gun either. Yes, the GSR will go to the mountains and get the job done but how well, when compared to the competition, will it do in a fire fight? No amount of bells and whistles can turn a bolt action into a comparable fighting gun. So if you want a hunting bolt action rifle with some bells and whistles that gives it a very very very slight edge for SD/HD it may be the gun for you. But if someone is thinkin it's even a poor replacement for a battle or so called assault rifle their gonna be sadly mistaken.

Having your cake and eating it too is a rare thing in life. If you think you have it you'd better be lining up a shrink cause life gonna toss you on your head someday.
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Old September 4, 2012, 04:04 PM   #40
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Basement-

I followed your link, and clicked on the specs tab .....no numbers .... but even taking your word for it that loaded with 1/2 a pound of ammo, and with sights installed, it's less than 7.25 pounds..... the OP had a $1300 budget for fun, glass and ammo ....... $3495 without sights of any kind, let alone glass and mounts, not to mention ammo, kinda blows that all to hell- You might as well recommend a phased pulse rifle in the 40 Gigawatt range ..... that'd nearly be as available to the OP as your carbon fiber and titanium sci-fi gun .....

L_K- We get it, you don't like the scout scope concept, or the GSR ..... others do..... don't buy it.

I like the flash hider, as it protects the crown (and threads for a can when I get one.....)

If you can't learn to cycle a bolt gun efficiently ..... that's your issue, I guess ..... there's plenty of material available out there on how to do so.

As for

Quote:
will it do in a fire fight?
nobody without a Quartermaster Dept. can afford to get into a suppressive fire type of firefight---- certainly not more than once. You'll shoot yourself defenseless in short order. To that end, making your shots count is a MUST. Bolt guns are conducive to that.
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Old September 4, 2012, 04:09 PM   #41
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I followed your link, and clicked on the specs tab .....no numbers .... but even taking your word for it that loaded with 1/2 a pound of ammo, and with sights installed, it's less than 7.25 pounds..... the OP had a $1300 budget for fun, glass and ammo ....... $3495 without sights of any kind, let alone glass and mounts, not to mention ammo, kinda blows that all to hell- You might as well recommend a phased pulse rifle in the 40 Gigawatt range ..... that'd nearly be as available to the OP as your carbon fiber and titanium sci-fi gun .....
I was being facetious. It was a joke.
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Old September 4, 2012, 05:09 PM   #42
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Ive noticed a couple of things getting lost in this thread.

Im not looking for so much a HD long gun (Im buying a pistol for that). I realize it may not be the best and it might change in the future but, it is going to be the first thing I grab if needed (besides a phone of course).

In case anyone was wondering when I said 'bad times" I was talking more hurricane, power outages, etc..I wasnt thinking zombies or any other such nonsense.

I also noticed that I stated it pretty confusing but, my over all budget is $2500. I just automatically took $500 out for ammo, and $700 for an XDM 45 compact (now that I think about it I might need $750 for night sights).

So what ever else I buy will mainly be for paper out to 100yds( learning how to hit what I want when I want being the objective) with anything left over going to more ammo.

I hope that clears somethings up.
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Old September 4, 2012, 07:19 PM   #43
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well there's some honest talk,,, but don't let that discourage you young man,,,,, reread post #15.
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Old September 4, 2012, 09:23 PM   #44
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After following this heated debate, I'm with Hooligan. I'm not a fan of using an AR15 for deer hunting (even though some of ya'll do it), and that AK round is pretty much equal to a 123 grain 30/30 round. It'll do, but it won't do well for deer hunting. Just get a nice bolt action, and you have plenty to choose from, and get it in a good caliber (243 minimum). Then put good glass on it. If I was spending your money, I'd spend about $800 on the rifle and about the same on the scope. You can do it for less, say a Ruger American and a good Burris scope, and you're only in for $600 or a bit more.

Back when I did a lot of host hunting (corporate america had big leases) and took folks hunting, I could tell a lot about their hunting skills by looking at the rifles. When folks showed up with AR15's and AK's, I pushed them toward other jeeps and guides ("nope, my jeep is full up, so you go ride with Bob"). I was looking for the guys with old 25-06's with blueing gone and dents in the stocks and good glass. And, of course, pretty girls could ride in my jeep even if they didn't have a rifle. Life's too short to hunt with amateurs.
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Old September 4, 2012, 09:33 PM   #45
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I could tell a lot about their hunting skills by looking at the rifles.
True dat.

His boots and knife will tell you near as much.

Back to the OP- If all you want to do is punch paper, an AR would work just fine. Ammo is cheaper than larger centerfires, as well. You don't need a whole lot of energy to poke holes in paper, either.
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Old September 4, 2012, 11:46 PM   #46
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AR-15/AR-10 rifles are fine to shoot and reliable... so long as its a nice sunny day... but as you mention hurricanes and other natural disasters, you may find yourself in dirty flooded waters, crawling around debris and have to fire in conditions that are not dry and sunny.. in which case an AR rifle is most likely going to fail you
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Old September 5, 2012, 12:05 AM   #47
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ seriously?
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Old September 5, 2012, 03:08 AM   #48
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Is the XDM 45 sub compact really $700?! Any particular reason for 45? The 9mm version is about $100 less I seen. (or did you mean "compact" which is really what I call duty sized... smaller than say a 1911 or M9 but bigger than the sub-compacts designed for CCW... those I know are about $550-600 if you shop around)

45acp is a good round, don't get me wrong... I like it, I've owned firearms that shoot it, as well as 9mm an 40s&w... but modern hollowpoints like Federal's HST and Speer's Gold Dot, especially when in the 124gn +p loading, level the field as far as effectiveness... Statistics don't lie, there is very little difference between the 3 major handgun calibers when it comes to effectiveness. Then there is the capacity and recoil aspect of it, which in a subcompact really makes a difference. (that being said, my person caliber of choice is 40, my fiance uses 9mm)

As far as a rifle... I have a couple suggestions.

First, I suggest a good 22lr semiauto as a good idea. Cheap and fun to shoot, for when you just want to punch paper. You can even hunt small game with it if you are so inclined.

The Ruger 10/22 is pretty much the go to as far as semiauto 22s are concerned. You can get one for $200 just about anywhere for the basic model in wood or polymer stock. A cheap low power scope or red dot and you can have a blast. You can deck it out and make it "tactical" if you want. Mostly just for the fun factor, but it still is viable as a small game hunter when set up like that. it also has factory high cap mags available to make time at the range more about fun than constant reloading. Sometimes the gun or the individual mag may need a little break in, but reliability is pretty much top notch.

If all you want is a fun plinker with a tactical feel, the M&P 15-22 is a good choice... and so is the Sig 522. With the edge going to the Sig as far as reliability with many ammo types and build quality. (aluminum upper on the sig, polymer on the M&P, Sig uses common 22 ar mags the M&P uses special mags, also I feel the bolt design on the Sig is better) You could hunt small game with them if you wanted, despite their "tactical" design. They both cost around $450 though, so more than the basic Ruger without addons.

Next... do you want bolt or semiauto for your centerfire rifle? Thats the question.

Bolt action makes an excellent hunter, and they are fun at the range, if you have a range that has enough distance to make it challenging, and you like slow precision shooting.

It is not a good choice in a defense situation. You mentioned hurricanes.. I am assuming you mean similar situations to Katrina or similar times of widespread lawlessness. A pistol is fine when there is only one or two intruders, but if you have a large group, a shotgun that holds more than 3 rounds, or repeating rifle works better. Though a gun is a gun, and a bolt action can be just as intimidating as any other, its when you are called to actually use it that it is less effective than other options.

If you go with a bolt action, a "scout" type will serve you well unless you need real long distance accuracy. Inside a few hundred yards, I would guess it would be just fine. If not a scout type, then a find one you like and fits your budget. You don't "need" a $1000+ bolt gun, a $400-600 version from a quality manufacturer like Winchester, Remington, CZ, Ruger, etc etc will get the job done well.

If slow fire/precision shooting is not your cup of tea, and the 22 semiauto does not fully fill your need for faster fire or general plinking... then you need to get a semiauto centerfire.

You can go with an M1A in .308 if you want... it has plenty of punch for most hunting in the lower 48 when matched with the right bullet... but the cost of the rifle and/or ammo may put you off.

The AR in .308 is a good option, but also expensive.

Then there is the AR-15... the .223/5.56 round is not overly expensive... and you can get a very reliable rifle for $800-1000... The big benefit of the AR platform is the fact that you can swap uppers very easily... While getting a new upper may not be in the budget now, it can be looked at as a future purchase. I hear the 6.8 round is a good round for dear hunting. Its basically a .270 short... They even make 22lr conversion kits (a bolt swap which is about $150-200, or a complete upper kit that costs a good bit more) So if you went that route, you could skip the 22 semiauto. You could have a rifle that you can afford to shoot all day, then swap out for centerfire practice, and if you get a second upper with a target/hunting barrel, convert it over to a decent hunter. Though a good target/hunting upper is going to cost you about the same as a good bolt gun by itself... its the price of modularity. If you want the ultimate in modularity... the new Colt 901 is a .308 AR-10 that can also convert to using AR-15 uppers, so any upper that fits an AR-15 will work for the 901... but be prepared to spend near $2000 for the rifle before any new uppers.

So its up to you... you have a wide range of potential uses, but I didn't see any concrete talk of your shooting style and idea of a fun day at the range. So I tried to cover many bases with my reply.

As far as the .223 for hunting goes...

You can hunt deer and similar sized game with .223 but it isn't the best. It is pretty much the standard round for varmint hunting though.

The 7.62x39 is not as powerful as some, but its powerful enough for game up to deer size I would think. (its compared to the 30-30 which was a popular deer cartridge) Its effective on humans, and deer share similar sized/shaped chest cavities.

They make bolt action rifles in 7.62x39, that would be pretty accurate, so long as they use the proper bore size. 7.62x39 uses a .311 bore, the 7.62 Nato (.308) is .308 bore... surplus 7.62x39 is standard .311 bore, some domestic hunting/defense geared 7.62x39 use standard .308 bullets... So know your ammo and gun as well for max accuracy. From what I hear, done right, the 7.62x39 can be accurate out of a bolt gun, Hickok45 was using a CZ bolt carbine and hitting a steel gong at 230yds with iron sites in one of his videos. And I would think you could take deer at 150-200yds without much trouble with good ammo. Beyond that, its ballistics make it harder to shoot, bullet drop is fast as I understand. Which makes knowing your optic and hold over for each range is important.

BTW... I am not a hunter myself, so take what I say on that subject with a grain of salt... I do know and talk to several hunters, and read a bit about it in the forums, so I can pass along things as I understand them. And I may be understanding wrong.

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Old September 5, 2012, 05:24 AM   #49
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The XDM 3.8 compact (bitone) cost $618 w/shipping on gun broker and $25 transfer but, I rounded it up to $700 so I could throw in and extra mag and X-tention and then night sights are @ $100 so totaled it will probably be @ 750-775 ish. I know its alot but, what the hell. It has everything I want a handgun to have with nothing I dont.

Ive owned plenty of 9mm, and 40s and 45s and I just like 45s best. Im not knocking the others its just my preference.

I realize the XDM is not tiny but, Ive owned a G30 before and I know its @ the same size. I never thought that it was too big to carry.

Can anyone explain whats wrong with the Nikon scope thats included with the savage rifle?

So far I think Im wanting a M&P15 sport and the Savage in 308. Are there any realistic things those two rifles cant do?
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Old September 5, 2012, 06:24 AM   #50
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The M&P sport is a good entry level AR... not as tough as say a BCM, but great for the range, and some light bashing around. Serious competition, probably not, a carbine course... no.

It should take a 22 conversion just like any other AR, so that is a good thing.

You don't need a fancy gun or optics to hunt reliably out to a couple hundred yards. So don't worry too much about the scope... so long as it holds its zero during firing, won't break if you breath on it wrong, and can handle a little rain and fog, you should be good.

BTW... Ruger and Savage make good rifles for the money. Less than $400 will get you a lot of gun for the money.

Last edited by marine6680; September 5, 2012 at 04:34 PM.
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