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Old September 15, 2012, 04:54 PM   #1
SFsc616171
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Old School Ammo vs Latest Greatest?

Hi folks!

Who among us, is still using what the Glock crowd is calling 'outdated ammo'?

Me? If it is 9mm, and chambers and cycles correctly, and has been a working load by manufacturers for years, why not? Example: Remington L9MM1.

If it is .38 Special, and I'm sure that you have heard that there are a boatload of ammo tests in .38 Special on YouTube, by credible people, and it is an old-school manufactured round, why not?
Two examples: 158 grain LSWC-HP +p via Winchester, Remington or Federal; or, 158 grain LSWC no hollowpoint and no +p, via Georgia Arms, The Hunting Shack, Federal, Bitterroot Valley, Magtech, or Ultramax. Might be a few more, but I don't recall them, right now.

Personally, I've watched with hope, a LOT of the .38 Special +p and non+p hollow point ammo tests ... always coming back to the 158 grain LSWC - no hollow point to fail, velocity is good, and penetration is good, too.
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Old September 15, 2012, 05:01 PM   #2
Newton24b
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its like this, the old school is normally easy to find, reliable, and well it works. just becasue something is old doesnt mean its useless.

who would argue that a lead ball from a 150 year old colt revolver going into your head is going to be less effective the a single round of 9mm zombiemax?
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Old September 15, 2012, 05:05 PM   #3
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Youtube tests rarely (almost never) include shooting through intermediate barriers. Popping a row of milk jugs with a bullet is about as ideal as it gets for bullet performance.

Quote:
Personally, I've watched with hope, a LOT of the .38 Special +p and non+p hollow point ammo tests ... always coming back to the 158 grain LSWC - no hollow point to fail, velocity is good, and penetration is good, too.
What is the difference in the wound cavity between a LSWCHP that fails to expand and a SWC that will never expand? Within the thickness of a human, nothing.
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Old September 15, 2012, 05:47 PM   #4
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watch the front sight and don't worry about the rest
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Old September 15, 2012, 05:52 PM   #5
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Quote:
158 grain LSWC - no hollow point to fail,
If the hollow point fails all you end up with is the LSWC. So what is the point of thinking '158 grain LSWC - no hollow point to fail" is a plus. I'm thinking if the hollow point works it will be a plus, something the LSWC cannot benefit from.
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Old September 15, 2012, 06:04 PM   #6
Archer 9505
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Quote:
What is the difference in the wound cavity between a LSWCHP that fails to expand and a SWC that will never expand?
That's a good point.

I guess that is why I am a proponent of big bores, when ever practical.

Like the old cliché goes "A .357 or .38 may expand but a .44 or .45 will never shrink."
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Old September 15, 2012, 07:13 PM   #7
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I must agree with Archer. Big and slow is the way to go.
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Old September 15, 2012, 07:39 PM   #8
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Carry whatever you want, it will be just fine for all the gunfights you are likely to find yourself in.

In .38 I carry 158gr lead semi-wadcutter hollow points. +P in those that are rated for it, non +P in those that aren't. Bought them from Buffalo Bore since I can't seem to find any boxes of Remington or Winchester out there.

I dont carry my .45 but it's loaded with Winchester Ranger T JHPs, 230 grain +P. No sense in me going looking for "old fashioned" bullets in that caliber since there are good modern ones for sale.

In my Glocks (oooh, I must be part of the evil "Glock crowd" whatever that means), I've got some Federal HST, 9mm and 40 S&W. But I'm sure Federal 9BP would work too. I guess the 40 is too new-fangled for there to even be old-school ammo for it, so I'm stuck with something made this century.
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Old September 16, 2012, 08:32 AM   #9
SFsc616171
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Old School Ammo ...

Adamantium ... the difference is a SWC doesn't cost as much as HP ammo.

For the person that mentioned a 150 year old revolver ... would we be referring to Wild Bill Hickok's .36 1851 Navy revolver, and the 75-yard heart shot?

For the person that mentioned 'Glock' in their response ... I have never owned one, but I do own a BHP.

I have seen -both- the water jug, and the denim-covered gelatin tests videos. But for the writer who mentioned something about 'shooting through something else in front of the target', that's police work, not something that an old geezer like me would have to worry about, in the protection of my own life.

"Please keep them cards and letters coming, folks!"
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Old September 16, 2012, 09:18 AM   #10
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I prefer the 9BPLE in my 9mms and the 158 LSWCHP +P in my .38s. SJHP in 357 Mag still the top stopper in that caliber.
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Old September 16, 2012, 10:02 AM   #11
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Old School Ammo ...


In 2003, Ms. K. Denson, a rancher in Aspen, Colorado shot and killed an assailant, (alleged hit man C. Boyd), with one shot, thru the heart. Ms. Denson’s handgun was a cap and ball black powder Civil War era Remington Army 44 cal SA revolver.

That’s right, a 150 year old 44 cal, powder & ball, single action revolver.

Old school ammo … still works … just gotta shoot straight.



PS: I prefer modern centerfire cartridge fmj ammo ...
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Old September 16, 2012, 11:58 AM   #12
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Quote:
Adamantium ... the difference is a SWC doesn't cost as much as HP ammo.
My bad, I thought we were talking about self defense. Because that would be a really silly argument if we were.

Quote:
always coming back to the 158 grain LSWC - no hollow point to fail, velocity is good, and penetration is good, too.
Oh wait, we are...

As far as shooting through barriers, you can carry ammo that does do that well, or carry ammo that doesn't. There is no actual downside to carrying the stuff that does. Shooting from the inside of an automobile to the outside doesn't sound like police work to me. Or to put that in other terms, when I was in Iraq and I went out on an 8 hour mission, I brought more than 8 hours of water with me. I didn't say that anything beyond what was supposed to happen wasn't going to happen.
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Old September 16, 2012, 12:03 PM   #13
David White
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Old school for me!
Winchester Silvertip .40 155 grain!
1205 FPS
500 FPE
It worked twenty + years ago so why not!
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Old September 16, 2012, 01:11 PM   #14
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I'm old school. I use non-HP LSWCs in my 38's and 357s.

Also use standard non-+P loads.

Never felt I needed +Ps or Hollow Points
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Old September 16, 2012, 01:37 PM   #15
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I'm using old-school ammo and I'll tell ya why.
My EDC is 10mm and my choices are slim.

I wish to stick to factory ammo.
I could go the boutique route (Double Tap, Buffalo Bore, Underwood) but these are either not available anywhere other than ordering online and/or pricey. Doesn't mean I won't elect to carry these at some point in the future, but it's one of the reasons I don't currently.

The "10mm ammo" made by the other big sources simply doesn't measure up to the Winchester Silvertip, in my opinion. The Federal Hydra-Shok is the worst, running a horrible velocity that isn't nearly up to spec for the round. The Hornady offerings are better than many, but still not quite as good as the Silvertip, in my opinion. But I'd carry the Hornady 180gr XTP in a pinch.

The Silvertip was the high-tech bullet choice in the early to mid-1980s, and it's a sad state that the big ammo companies won't dedicate any development dough to 10mm, but it runs a good speed and I can get it and I can run through a couple boxes on occasion, so that's what I'm carrying.
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Old September 16, 2012, 03:25 PM   #16
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For a minute there, I thought this thread was going to be about "full-patch" ammunition for your automatic or round-nose lead for the really old guns.
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Old September 16, 2012, 04:16 PM   #17
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The choice of gun and ammo is the least of it.
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Old September 17, 2012, 01:49 PM   #18
David White
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevens View Post
I'm using old-school ammo and I'll tell ya why.
My EDC is 10mm and my choices are slim.

I wish to stick to factory ammo.
I could go the boutique route (Double Tap, Buffalo Bore, Underwood) but these are either not available anywhere other than ordering online and/or pricey. Doesn't mean I won't elect to carry these at some point in the future, but it's one of the reasons I don't currently.

The "10mm ammo" made by the other big sources simply doesn't measure up to the Winchester Silvertip, in my opinion. The Federal Hydra-Shok is the worst, running a horrible velocity that isn't nearly up to spec for the round. The Hornady offerings are better than many, but still not quite as good as the Silvertip, in my opinion. But I'd carry the Hornady 180gr XTP in a pinch.

The Silvertip was the high-tech bullet choice in the early to mid-1980s, and it's a sad state that the big ammo companies won't dedicate any development dough to 10mm, but it runs a good speed and I can get it and I can run through a couple boxes on occasion, so that's what I'm carrying.
Check out tnoutdoors9(?). He did some recent testing on the big ten Silvertip and it a killer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmNL3...em-uploademail
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Old September 17, 2012, 07:23 PM   #19
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It depends on the caliber, in my own guns I use the following:

.22 Long Rifle- CCI 40gr Velocitor
.32 Auto- Fiocchi 73gr FMJ
7.62x25 Tokarev- Winchester 85gr FMJ (S&B is just as good if available)
.38 S&W- Handload with a 200gr LRN
.38 Special- Remington 158gr LSWCHP +P
9mm Parabellum- Winchester 127gr Ranger T-Series +P+
.357 Magnum- Remington 158gr SJHP
10mm Auto- Winchester 175gr Silvertip
.44 Magnum- Remington 240gr SJHP
.45 ACP- Federal 230gr HST +P

Also, if I still owned a gun in .44 Special, I'd use either Federal 200gr LSWCHP or Speer 200gr Gold Dot depending on the barrel length (I'd only use the Federal in a 4" or longer barrel).
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Old September 17, 2012, 07:39 PM   #20
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I guess that since I like the heavy-for-caliber XTPs in .45 and 9mm, I might be "old-school"- guess it depends upon just how "old" it has to be in order to be considered "old-school".
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Old September 17, 2012, 07:44 PM   #21
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95gr FMJ Remington Express in my LCP, I'm not a magic bullet fan
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Old September 17, 2012, 08:06 PM   #22
Gary L. Griffiths
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You don't see law enforcement agencies using last century ammo.

You won't see me using last century ammo.

Modern JHPs are vast improvements over their predecessors. I'll go with modern technology.
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Old September 17, 2012, 08:18 PM   #23
Webleymkv
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Quote:
You don't see law enforcement agencies using last century ammo.

You won't see me using last century ammo.

Modern JHPs are vast improvements over their predecessors. I'll go with modern technology.
There are also a lot of handgun cartridges that are not commonly used by law enforcement and thus haven't received the "vast improvements" that cartridges like 9mm, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP have. For these cartridges, "last century ammo" is oftentimes still the best available.
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Old September 17, 2012, 08:40 PM   #24
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"[There are also a lot of handgun cartridges that are not commonly used by law enforcement and thus haven't received the "vast improvements" that cartridges like 9mm, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP have. For these cartridges, "last century ammo" is oftentimes still the best available.]"

The 158gr SWC Dos'nt need any improvements & the 125 SJHP in Rem. or Fed
Dos'nt need any either JMO & Been great loads when applied correctly
Y/D
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Old September 17, 2012, 08:59 PM   #25
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I don't willy nilly switch ammo to the flavor of the month but I do believe some of today's offerings beat most of those from yesteryear. Who wouldn't want a .45 acp caliber bullet expanding to .75 inches and above while penetrating adequately, even through denim and auto window glass? Federal HSTs and Speer Gold Dots can do this. Just because a lead ball can kill you from a black powder gun doesn't mean it's the best choice available.

There is one older load, however, that I think meets or exceeds most of today's. That's the Remington 158 gr. LSWCHP +P. It performs well in both four inch and two inch revolvers. The Remington uses a soft lead and seems to expand better than other manufacturer's similar loads. http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/3...on%20Tests.htm
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