The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The North Corral > Black Powder and Cowboy Action Shooting

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 25, 2012, 09:06 AM   #1
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Chesapeake, VA
Posts: 4,629
.45 LC...Starting the bullet into the case.

Guys,

The way my bullets cast I get an O.D. of right around .454. with the lead I am using. It is a Lee 90234 mold. My lead is measuring right around BHN 8 to BHN 16

The case expanding die (also from Lee) opens the cases up such that the bullet requires a bit of yutzing to get it to start into the case. I was doing this by hand because I could not rely upon the press to start the bullet if I just sat it on top of the case.

Problem with doing it by hand is that I could not consistently get the bullet alignment right. In addition, handling the bullets left an awful lot of lube on my fingers and wiped the lube out of the grooves.

So I came up with a contraption that starts the bullet with great alignment every time. It reduces the amount of handling and smooths the lube into the grooves of the bullet.

It is made up of three components. One is a block of rock maple that is inletted to hold the case firmly in place in a rim up position. The second piece is made of a block of ABS plastic with a hole drilled though it. The hole has two different diameters. The smaller diameter is the perfect size to accept the bullet with a very little bit of force required to push it into the hole. The larger diameter is big enough to fit snuggly over the brass case. The third component is a little wooden Tee handle made from an oak handle and a dowel.

To use it, I lube the bullet and then force it through the larger diameter hole in the plastic block and into the smaller diameter part of the hole in the block. I put the bullet in nose first from larger diameter hole to smaller diameter hole. It stays put in the smaller diameter hole because of the snug fit with the nose just peaking out of the hole.

Then I put the casing with powder and card into the maple block to hold it upright and secure.

I put the plastic block with the bullet in it over the maple block with the bullet in perfect alignment with the case.

I then use the Tee handle to force the bullet about a 16th inch into the case.

Then I put the cartridge with the bullet into the press and seat and the crimp the bullet normally.

The plastic block holds the bullet secure in the right alignment. It also distrubutes the lube properly into the grooves.

I noticed when seating the bullet with the press that a little extra force is needed if the bullet alignment isn't right. This makes sense and I was concerned I was damaging the bullets because of this alignment problem. When I use my little contraption, since the alignment is always the same (and hopefully always right) I use the same force each time I seat the bullet.
__________________
Doc

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. Thomas Jefferson
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old August 25, 2012, 09:25 AM   #2
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 11,869
Sounds like you don't have your expander set up right. My 44-40 sizes cases to the original dimensions of .427 and wont expand enough to start a .430 bullet. I just use a wad punch and a hammer and add a little bell to them. I could us a 44 mag expander ball but that would be too much like right.
Hawg is offline  
Old August 25, 2012, 04:45 PM   #3
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Chesapeake, VA
Posts: 4,629
Hawg....

when I use this starter I don't get any lead shaved or anything.

The bullet is just a little too tight to start by hand.

I'll shoot some photos of this stuff as soon as I gets off my a __ __.
__________________
Doc

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. Thomas Jefferson
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old August 25, 2012, 06:04 PM   #4
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 11,869
Its not supposed to start by hand just not shave lead when its seated.
Hawg is offline  
Old August 25, 2012, 07:53 PM   #5
TomADC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 2009
Posts: 565
I pan lube then run the bullets thru a Lee lube-sizer of the proper size, they do make a .454 along with a couple of others. Less than $20.00 Clean the bullet up also.
__________________
US Navy Retired,NRA Life Member,SASS member, Time magazine's Person of the Year 2006!
TomADC is offline  
Old August 25, 2012, 08:29 PM   #6
Shotgun693
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 3, 2011
Location: Poteet, Texas
Posts: 959
What are you shooting this bullet out of?
Shotgun693 is offline  
Old August 26, 2012, 02:30 AM   #7
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Chesapeake, VA
Posts: 4,629
Two responses..

Shotgun,

Uberti Cattleman

Tom,

I thought that the lube sizer was intended for use with Liquid Alox....

Does it work with black powder lube too? or perhaps does Liquid Alox work well as a black powder bullet lube?

Tnx in advance for the info...
__________________
Doc

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. Thomas Jefferson

Last edited by Doc Hoy; August 26, 2012 at 02:37 AM.
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old August 26, 2012, 02:45 AM   #8
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Chesapeake, VA
Posts: 4,629
Tom....

I think I may have just found the answer for my own question.

A post on the Midway site (BTW, the sizer is on sale for 15.99) from a guy in Texas speaks of using bore lube in the sizer on the bullets.

I must confess I am only now getting a feel for how this sizer works. Since my first reaction (apparently an incorrect one) was that the thing only worked with a lube that was not right for BP applications, I didn't even bother to familiarize myself with it. I think maybe I might should take a closer look.
__________________
Doc

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. Thomas Jefferson
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old August 26, 2012, 04:46 AM   #9
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Chesapeake, VA
Posts: 4,629
I took the plunge

Just bought a Lube Sizer (Lee) from Titan Reloading. Even with Midway putting it on sale it was cheaper at Titan in the long run.

Also bought a four stage turret for the press.

I must say that I like dealing with Titan Reloading. Their prices are good, service is fast. Shipping is very reasonable (This package was 8.05 for priority mail and the addition of the turret to the order did not increase the shipping by even one cent). They take paypal.

On the down side, they handle almost exclusively Lee products and if you don't like Lee, you probably would find a different distributer to be more to your liking.
__________________
Doc

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. Thomas Jefferson
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old August 26, 2012, 08:10 AM   #10
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Chesapeake, VA
Posts: 4,629
Photos

Photos of this contraption



The three pieces



Hre you can see the difference inthe diameters of the holes



The bullet goes in, nose first and is pushed from the large diameter to the small diameter
__________________
Doc

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. Thomas Jefferson

Last edited by Doc Hoy; August 26, 2012 at 10:31 AM.
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old August 26, 2012, 10:34 AM   #11
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Chesapeake, VA
Posts: 4,629
More photos

Here, the dullet is seated with the grooves all the way into the small diameter.



Then the bullet in the block is positioned over the shell and the tee handle pushes the bullet into the case just far enough toget it started.



From here the bullet goes into the press for final seating and crimping.

Perhaps when I get better at this, I won't need this device to get the bullet started straight.
__________________
Doc

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. Thomas Jefferson
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old August 26, 2012, 10:46 AM   #12
billcarey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 3, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 220
You may want to try a Lyman Multi-expand die. It expands the case just for the bullet to be easy to set into the case and then flares the mouth to whatever you adjust it to. It's standard with their dies if you buy a set.

bc

Last edited by billcarey; August 26, 2012 at 10:52 AM. Reason: spelling
billcarey is offline  
Old August 26, 2012, 11:11 AM   #13
TomADC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 2009
Posts: 565
Barry, I pan lube with Emments lube its a BP lube then run the bullets thru the Lee lube/sizer. Works great.
__________________
US Navy Retired,NRA Life Member,SASS member, Time magazine's Person of the Year 2006!
TomADC is offline  
Old August 26, 2012, 12:03 PM   #14
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Chesapeake, VA
Posts: 4,629
Bill and Tom

Thanks for the info.

Tom,

I have never messed with Alox, but as it calls itself a liquid I am assuming it is relatively runny.

Perhaps that is not correct.

Is Emments a thicker consistency? More like the combination tallow beeswax crisco, toilet donut based stuff?
__________________
Doc

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. Thomas Jefferson
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old August 26, 2012, 01:33 PM   #15
TomADC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 2009
Posts: 565
I use Buck Emmert's Lube Formula (for black powder)

1750 grains Beeswax
1368 grains Crisco Shortening (White)
328 grains Crisco or Wesson Vegatable Oil

This recipe makes 1/2 pound lubricant. If you tray lube as I do, you'll probably
want to double the recipe.
I also now substitute Anhydrous lanolin for the vegatable oil.

I use a WalMart cheapie crock pot to melt this in, I then use a turkey baster to put it in the pan with the bullets standing up.

BTW I have never used Alox
__________________
US Navy Retired,NRA Life Member,SASS member, Time magazine's Person of the Year 2006!
TomADC is offline  
Old August 26, 2012, 01:36 PM   #16
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 11,869
Alox is a liquid. You pour a little bit over the bullets and roll them around for coverage. let them sit overnight and it hardens up to stickiness. Not a really messy sticky but sticky nonetheless.
Hawg is offline  
Old August 26, 2012, 01:57 PM   #17
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Chesapeake, VA
Posts: 4,629
Two responses....plus a general question

Tom,

Your mix (Emmert's) appears to be close to what I was considering now that I came up with some beeswax. I was going to use olive oil for the oil.

Two questions:

1. Can you say why you went to lanolin?
2. Does this make a lube which retains its consistency in hot weather?

Hawg,

Thanks for the heads up on Alox. I will get a bit of it when i get the lube sizer kit. So I will give it a try. My hope is that it keeps the fouling soft in the .45 Long Colt pistol.

General:

Why is mutton tallow chosen over lard?

Tnx,
__________________
Doc

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. Thomas Jefferson
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old August 26, 2012, 03:08 PM   #18
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 11,869
I never used Alox with bp but I like it with smokeless.
Hawg is offline  
Old August 26, 2012, 03:50 PM   #19
TomADC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 2009
Posts: 565
I like the lanolin the lube seems to stay better in hot weather and fouling has been pretty easy to clean up.
Doc olive oil is for salads!

BTW this lube is sticky but has never been runny.
__________________
US Navy Retired,NRA Life Member,SASS member, Time magazine's Person of the Year 2006!
TomADC is offline  
Old August 27, 2012, 10:50 PM   #20
Malamute
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 6, 2004
Location: Rocky Mts
Posts: 820
There's a differecne between Alox and Lee's liquid Alox. Alox bullet lube has been around for ages, and comes in round hollow sticks meant for easy use in the common (Lyman) luber/sizers. It isn't generally thought of as a good black powder lube, though I've used it for black in a Winchester 1886 and Colt single action 44 spl with decent results. The regular Alox meant for luber sizers is stickier than most lubes on commecially cast bullets, and is a bit more dirty to work with because of that, but I found it to be a good general purpose lube in the loads I mentioned, smokeless loads in the 45-70, and in the 44 magnum. I think it's head and shoulders better lube than any hard crayon like lube on the commercially cast bullets on the market.

I agree that your expander isn't adjusted right. When the flair is right, all you should have to do is set the bullet on top of the case and run the press ram up, seating and crimping. It will align going into the seating die. You can buy just the Lyman "M" expanding die that has the stepped expander for getting cast bullets started straight, though I've not had any troubles with the normal RCBS dies. With regular RCBS dies set to expand correctly, you should get zero lead shaving.
__________________
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-
Malamute is offline  
Old August 28, 2012, 06:09 AM   #21
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Chesapeake, VA
Posts: 4,629
All, Thanks

I am going to have to look into the adjustment of my expander die.
__________________
Doc

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. Thomas Jefferson
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old August 28, 2012, 01:15 PM   #22
Shotgun693
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 3, 2011
Location: Poteet, Texas
Posts: 959
Isn't your bullet a little larger than it needs to be for the bore of that gun? I use either a .451 or .452 and get excellent results.
Shotgun693 is offline  
Old August 28, 2012, 01:48 PM   #23
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Chesapeake, VA
Posts: 4,629
Shotgun

I am using a Lee .452 mold. 90234. It was actually giving me larger bullets and bullets that were not very round. So I started clamping the mold tightly closed with a hand spring clamp.

Now I get bullets that measure much more consistently and are closer to the marked diameter of the mold.

Perhaps if I were more careful with the metal I am using, I would get better shrinkage and the bullets wold be closer to .452.

I think I recall reading posts from others who say that their bullets come out of the mold a bit larger than the mold is advertised to produce.

I know I have found that to be the case with round balls.
__________________
Doc

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. Thomas Jefferson
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old August 28, 2012, 10:20 PM   #24
Malamute
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 6, 2004
Location: Rocky Mts
Posts: 820
Quote:
Isn't your bullet a little larger than it needs to be for the bore of that gun? I use either a .451 or .452 and get excellent results.
Each gun can be a law unto itself. Even identical guns from the same manufacturer can vary some in barrel dimensions. Without slugging the bore of the individual gun, you don't know exactly what the grooove diameter is, and what to size it to for best results. Most feel .001" over groove diameter is best all around.


Quote:
I am using a Lee .452 mold. 90234. It was actually giving me larger bullets and bullets that were not very round....
It sounds like you're on to the molds quirks some, but having round bullets should help. It shouldnt take a clamp to keep the handles together, but if that's what it takes, then who am I to complain?

Do the handles touch when the mould is closed? If so,try clearancing the handles till they don't, it should help if they are touching now. I've seen a few that touched, no good can come of that. The blocks need to be tightly together, not the handles.
__________________
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-
Malamute is offline  
Old August 29, 2012, 03:24 AM   #25
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Chesapeake, VA
Posts: 4,629
Malamute

The handles do not touch. The problem is that I am not very good at applying the same force every time when I hold the molds closed.

Some may say, "You should not have to hold the molds closed."

But I have found this to be the case in every mold I have, be they Lyman, Ideal or Lee.

Some of you may recall a post about two years ago in which I described spring loaded mold handle for my Lyman and Ideal molds. Using these spring loaded handles I cut standard deviation of round ball diameters by more than half. I can easily beat the consistency of Hornady balls.

So when I detected inconsistency in the RNFPs I was casting I naturally looked for a way to hold the molds tightly together with the same force every time. Because of the way Lee molds are put together it is hard to get them apart to change mold handles. And because of the way they close, my spring loaded handle design won't work on them.

So I just use the hand spring clamp (kind of like an oversized clothespin) to hold them closed. The effect is the same as the spring loaded handles on the steel molds. The mold line virtually disappears. And the bullets come out closer to round. Also they are more consistent from slug to slug.
__________________
Doc

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. Thomas Jefferson
Doc Hoy is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:59 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12144 seconds with 9 queries