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Old September 1, 2012, 12:14 PM   #1
Moyer
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Hottest FACTORY loads - 45acp vs 10mm

Does anyone happen to know what's available? All the 45 vs 10mm threads I've seen end up comparing apples to oranges on different hand loads. I'm considering an auto for close range deer hunting and I'd like to see exactly how much I'd be giving up by going with the .45, because it seems like most of the real power of the 10mm comes from hand loading. Thank you.
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Old September 1, 2012, 12:21 PM   #2
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Not from Buffalo Bore and Double Tap. 10 mm has much more energy. For deer hunting the .45 ACP will work for sure. I would not worry so much about energy but choosing the right bullet/ammunition and shot placement.
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Old September 1, 2012, 04:50 PM   #3
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Check the Hornady website, they make both 10mm and 45 acp loads with XTP bullets.
The Hornady 10mm loads are not the hottest, but they are full power.
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Old September 1, 2012, 06:04 PM   #4
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Owning both and hunting with the 10mm. The 10mm blows the 45acp away in ever aspect. Even with super hot 45acp, they just don't penetrate like the 10mm. The 45acp at best, is a marginal whitetail round. I have killed many deer with the 45 Long Colt and it is where you want to start if you want a 45 caliber. I do like the hot 200 grain 45acp Corbon rounds for self protection and as a woods gun.
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Old September 1, 2012, 10:34 PM   #5
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A more fair comparison would be 45 super vs 10mm.
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Old September 1, 2012, 10:44 PM   #6
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yep the 45 and 10 really arent a fair comparison, seems like the hot 10mm stuff from buffalo and doubletap puts out about twice the energy of the 45 if im remembering correctly. I carry a 10mm for a woods gun with hot doubletap loads, and while manageable you can definitely feel the difference between it and a 45 when youre shooting it.
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Old September 2, 2012, 12:43 AM   #7
Moyer
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What's unfair about it? They're the 2 biggest commonly available automatics. You can get both in a Glock, 1911, or a CZ clone. They're not THAT much different. For example, check out Ballistics by the Inch chrono results. They have a 5" barrel 1911 in 10mm shooting a 200gr Hornady XTP at 1096fps. They have another 5" 1911 in .45 shooting a 200gr Cor Bon +P at 1087fps. They also have the same guns shooting 165gr Cor Bon JHPs, with the .45 being only 17fps slower.

Sounds very much like apples to apples to me.
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Old September 2, 2012, 01:13 AM   #8
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Don't just look at the numbers , bullet construction is very important. For example Speer's Gold Dot and Deep Curl are similar construction but the Deep Curl is heavier construction designed for hunting [they are for revolvers not autos]. Also proven performers are Swift A-frame and Barnes all copper.Most auto bullets are designed for defense not hunting.
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Old September 2, 2012, 07:25 AM   #9
vba
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As a previous poster stated, .45 Super. With some inexpensive changes (20# recoil spring, extra power firing pin spring, EGW flat firing pin stop and a small increase in the main spring) the 1911 can be converted to fire .45 super. With the conversion my gun will still fire regular .45 acp as well.

I've done it and no problems thus far. I got my information from members tsp45acp, NonPCnraRN and others at 1911forum.com .

Last edited by vba; September 2, 2012 at 07:41 AM.
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Old September 2, 2012, 07:40 AM   #10
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What about .40 Super?

A barrel and springs change a 1911 from .45 slow poke to .40 powerhouse equaling or exceeding a 10mm.

200 gr 40 cal lead at 1300 fps and 750 ft-lb from DoubleTap (and many others available too from them)

You can get the barrel from EFK FIredragon - just ask for the 400 corbon barrel to be rechambered.


Or what about the 400 corbon? It's "almost" as good...
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Old September 2, 2012, 02:20 PM   #11
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Quote:
They're not THAT much different. For example, check out Ballistics by the Inch chrono results. They have a 5" barrel 1911 in 10mm shooting a 200gr Hornady XTP at 1096fps. They have another 5" 1911 in .45 shooting a 200gr Cor Bon +P at 1087fps.
My 4.5" G-20 chronographs 200 gr bullets at 1315 fps. Not only is that a lot faster, the much better SD of the 10mm is going to mean a LOT better penetration.

Best loads vs best loads, the 45 isn't even close.

A 357 with the best loads out of longer barreled guns is a virtual tie with the 10mm.
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Old September 2, 2012, 02:42 PM   #12
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"A 357 with the best loads out of longer barreled guns is a virtual tie with the 10mm"
No, the .357 will have more or no less energy, when comparing same weight bullets in similar length barrels. Once again, here are the facts from Buffalo Bore:

180 Grain JHP
1311 fps - Glock model 20 4.6 inch barrel
1337 fps - Colt Delta Elite 5 inch barrel
1351 fps - Para Ordinance 1911 with Nowlin 5 inch barrel

180 Grain 180gr. Hard cast LFN
4 inch S&W L frame Mt. Gun - 1375 fps

Accounting for loss of velocity between jacketed and hard cast they are similar or the .357 has more energy. The 10mm is a fine cartridge but let's not get carried away.
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Old September 2, 2012, 04:01 PM   #13
Moyer
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Quote:
My 4.5" G-20 chronographs 200 gr bullets at 1315 fps. Not only is that a lot faster, the much better SD of the 10mm is going to mean a LOT better penetration.

Best loads vs best loads, the 45 isn't even close.
What 220gr load are you shooting? Remember, I'm talking about FACTORY loads, not what you can cook up on your own.
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Old September 2, 2012, 04:45 PM   #14
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You've got the wrong 45

A Ruger, Thompson-Contender or Colt Anaconda chambered in 45 Colt will have it all over a 10mm. These would be using the so-called "Ruger Only" loads.

But this is the province of the handloader unless you get the Buffalo Bore or have a custom (licensed) ammomaker load something up for you.

While the 45 ACP is capable of killing even a grizzly bear (Denali Park, Alaska in May 2010, which was VERY lucky for the hiker) it is primarily designed for social work, not for hunting animals.

Antelope, maybe (if you could get close enough), but deer tend to be pretty tough and hitting one that doesn't produce an instant stop, even with good shot placement, with a 45 ACP is likely to give you a very difficult tracking job. A solid, even with a through-and-through will leave little blood trail and a hollowpoint not much more unless there is an (unlikely) exit wound.

Here's my ranking (just off-the-cuff) on a 1 to 10 scale:

45 Colt (hot) 10
44 Magnum (commercial load) 10
41 Magnum (commercial load) 9+ above 10mm because heavier bullet available)
10mm (hot) 9+
10mm (commercial) 9
.357 Magnum (hot) 8
.357 Magnum (commercial) 7
45 ACP 5

Good luck

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edit: Jmortimer, I probably should not have put numbers to them. It was of-the-cuff, but I wanted to show the relative effectiveness of the 45 ACP. Your point about the relative power of the 10mm vs .357 mag is well taken, as the current 10mm loadings are lighter than they used to be. I do give a lot of weight to bullet diameter and believe frontal area is a factor in putting down game. But I recognize there is some debate over momentum vs energy. But that debate is for another thread.

Last edited by Lost Sheep; September 2, 2012 at 06:19 PM.
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Old September 2, 2012, 05:01 PM   #15
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^ Generally,I don't disagree with your rankings, but to put a 700 ft lb 10mm as a "9" to "9+" and the 1,000 plus ft lb .41 mag at "9+" leaves a no room for the huge difference in performance. The .41 is way more gun. The .357 is every bit if not more gun than a 10mm and will go over 800 ft lbs. If the .45 Colt (my favorite) is a "10" and goes over 1,250 ft lbs the 10mm would be more like a 6 or 7 and the .357 would be a 7. Of course the .454, .475, .500, .460 would all be way beyond "10."
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Old September 2, 2012, 09:07 PM   #16
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Quote:
What 220gr load are you shooting? Remember, I'm talking about FACTORY loads, not what you can cook up on your own.
Not 220 gr. Read my post. These are factory Double Tap loads. 200 Gr hardcast chronographed at 1315 from my gun.
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Old September 2, 2012, 09:23 PM   #17
jmr40
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Quote:
"A 357 with the best loads out of longer barreled guns is a virtual tie with the 10mm"
No, the .357 will have more or no less energy, when comparing same weight bullets in similar length barrels. Once again, here are the facts from Buffalo Bore:

180 Grain JHP
1311 fps - Glock model 20 4.6 inch barrel
1337 fps - Colt Delta Elite 5 inch barrel
1351 fps - Para Ordinance 1911 with Nowlin 5 inch barrel

180 Grain 180gr. Hard cast LFN
4 inch S&W L frame Mt. Gun - 1375 fps

Accounting for loss of velocity between jacketed and hard cast they are similar or the .357 has more energy. The 10mm is a fine cartridge but let's not get carried away.


http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...9q7ourfgeh1130

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...9q7ourfgeh1130


The Double tap 200 gr hardcast is rated at 1300 fps in 10mm. It actually chronographs at 1315 fps in my gun with a 4.5" barrel.

Their 200 gr hardcast 357 is rated at 1200 fps from a 4" gun, 1315 fps from a 6" gun. I've never chronographed any of it, but that is about as close to a virtual tie as you can get. But a much larger, longer revolver is required to beat a 4.5" auto.

My G-20 is a smaller package than a 3" revolver. In comparable sized guns the 10mm is at least 100 fps faster with the best loads from a 357.

http://s1129.photobucket.com/albums/...ent=001-11.jpg
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Old September 2, 2012, 10:04 PM   #18
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Double Tap has a reputation for exaggeration of performance levels and Buffalo Bore has a reputation of accuracy of performance ratings - e.g. a specific gun, your gun in fact, with specific numbers. Double Tap seems to make up exaggerated numbers with no specifics. So in this, I will stick with Buffalo Bore's numbers, specific guns and numbers. Even then you can get over 800 ft lbs with a .357 and you are at 768 ft lbs assuming you have accurate numbers which, again, are still no more, and in fact less than the potential of the .357. The original point about barrel length was mistaken as I pointed out. The 10mm is good but it is not more gun than a .357.

Last edited by jmortimer; September 2, 2012 at 10:11 PM.
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Old September 3, 2012, 08:36 PM   #19
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Quote:
No, the .357 will have more or no less energy, when comparing same weight bullets in similar length barrels.
.357 revolver barrel vs. 10mm auto tube ...

Just FYI, but when doing these comparisons of velocity, you have to factor for TRUE barrel length.

Remember that a 4" revolver barrel does NOT = a 4" auto barrel, because the wheelgun measurement is ALL barrel which the bullet traverses.

The auto's "4" barrel" has a chamber included in that measurement, which the bullet does NOT travese, so the bullet's actual length of travel in measuring velocity is more like 3".

You need a 5" auto, essentially, to compare against a 4" revolver. Even then it's only a rough comparison, because the wheelgun guys will argue that the cylinder gap reduces velocity in the revolver, regardless of barrel length.

Funny how Inspector Callahan and Det. Crocket never had these arguments for their respective cartridges ...

Just sayin' ...



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Old September 4, 2012, 07:16 AM   #20
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This is what I would use. http://www.underwoodammo.com/10mmaut...ntboxof50.aspx

10mm, 200gr XTP bullet @ 1250fps Somebody chrono'ed the 180gr 10mm GDHP load and it chrono'ed over its rating by a fair margin. Also caused jacket separation on a Gold Dot which I have not seen before. The XTP bullets will do better at these velocities.

Last edited by TacticalDefense1911; September 4, 2012 at 12:22 PM.
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Old September 4, 2012, 08:50 AM   #21
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Underwood and Buffalo Bore are the kings of factory ammo. Double Tap used to be, but it seems they have watered down their ammo in recent years. I just wish I could find the good stuff at my local gun dealer rather than ordering em over the web.

I'm a big fan of both 10mm (Glock G29) and .357 mag (S&W model 60), and consider them to be ballistic twins (with the hot loads +/- a little on this load or that.) I prefer the 10mm, and I carry it more. My 10mm holds more rounds, and shoots smoother...YMMV.

I also have a Glock 30 (.45 ACP) which is the same sized gun as my G29. Since I have the G29, I don't ever carry the G30. I like the extra power the 10mm delivers over the .45 ACP, and like the extra capacity it has over the .357 mag.

Last edited by Outdoorsman5; September 7, 2012 at 06:26 AM.
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Old September 4, 2012, 02:48 PM   #22
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45 super

Shot my 1911 45 super this weekend ! Chrono 185 grain nosler at 1350 fps !
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Old September 4, 2012, 06:03 PM   #23
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460 Rowland beats both the 10mm and the 45 and is available in a variety of kits and configurations. It is a modified 45 with a slightly longer case that is apparently strengthened...

Its in Mid 44 Magnum Power.. check out a Springfield XD Tactical with a 5 inch barrel... 13+1 Capacity and bad to the bone....

http://460rowland.com/

Buffalo Bore - 255g HC-FN 1300 FPS@957 ft lbs

Or you can look at this old thread i started complete with pics.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...r+in+semi+auto
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Old September 4, 2012, 06:45 PM   #24
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^ I think this makes the most sense for serious semi-auto power.
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Old September 5, 2012, 10:06 PM   #25
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Can normal 45ACP ammo be shot in a .460 Rowland (like it can in a .45 Super)?
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