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Old September 1, 2012, 07:24 AM   #1
longspurr
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Altering point of impact for a Savage 311 double gun

Pattering at 17 yds was a real eye opener. 2 of my shotguns shot at 12 0clock from my target dot – just fine.

My 311 however shot high left with both barrels. The target dot was barely in the 5 0clock fringe.
I wondering what practical ways there are to change the P O I approx. 4-5” to bring the pattern over top of the target dot??

Can a gunsmith ream the chokes to alter the P O I of this fixed choke gun? Patterning says the gun is choked MOD – FULL. I would be ok with this gun being more I/C, Mod.

Should I be thinking stock modifications? I’m familiar with the idea of cast off, but have no idea who is experienced in such things.

Your thoughts please
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Old September 1, 2012, 11:08 AM   #2
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stock mods may be the only answer. Unfortunately, they may cost more than the value of the gun. I can't think of anything else. I'm sure we'll get some more answers here...
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Old September 1, 2012, 12:34 PM   #3
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Briley may be able to install eccentric choke tubes, but it won't be cheap. The short version is, they make and install a crooked choke tube.

Here's the link, but all it says is Eccentric choke - $75-$150.

www.briley.com/2009/screwchokepricing.html
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Old September 1, 2012, 01:53 PM   #4
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Why 17 yards? I know that's the range at which a good trap shooter breaks his targets, but I can't imagine shooting trap with a 311. I did shoot skeet with one once and had trouble with the patterning. The fix was to take the gun to a 'smith who cut 1/2 inch off the barrels and did something else (his own private brand of magic) to help it shoot to the sights. It became my dove/rabbit gun and served me very well for several years.

Are you, by chance, shooting it Southpaw?
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Old September 1, 2012, 03:25 PM   #5
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Target Dot? How many rounds did you pattern? Sounds like gun mount. Trap shooters shoot from the 16 yard line but break at 35 to 40 yards depending on speed.
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Old September 1, 2012, 07:07 PM   #6
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+1

You seem to be assuming it is the gun and not the shooter -I suspect mount and fit issues more than the gun

Patterning should be done at 30 yards
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Old September 1, 2012, 08:20 PM   #7
JT-AR-MG42
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I understand the 16-17 yd. testing.

A good friend and excellent youth shotgun coach finally convinced me to try it.
The OP is shooting for impact, not pattern. You get a tight pattern that better shows this point of impact at the closer distance.

I too am somewhat confused by the terminology used. I generally put my sight picture - stacked beads - on a 1/4" dot black dot at that distance.

Like oneounce suggested, you should first eliminate shooter error and shoot enough different shots on different targets to really confirm your hold and impact.
It is important that you use your same natural gun mount and sight picture rather than try to compensate for where the gun is hitting.

Again using the coaches advice, I use a heavy duty camera tripod and sandbags that are elevated to allow a normal standing posture to support my hand on the forearm.
This helps to 'tighten' the groups and more quickly identify the adjustments needed.

Brownells sells choke reamers that would allow you to open the chokes. Cheaper than installing tubes, but obviously not reversible.
But that can wait until after you are satisfied with your gun fit and ready for the pattern board.

I'll be talking to him this week and will ask about stock adjustment guidelines for fixed stock guns.

JT
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Old September 1, 2012, 08:44 PM   #8
longspurr
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One ounce
You may be partially right.
I was laying the gun and other items on top of the trap house and put up the target stand at a "reasonable" distance. I wanted the pattern to still be compact and easy to understand its center.

I fired 2 shots of factory AA through each barrel. After each round I went to the target and circled the greatest part of the pattern. For a double barrel this was 4 trips to the target stand.

I did "not" raise and fire, but carefully sighted down the barrel lining up the beads. As One Ounce surmised this was less about gun "fit" and more about shooting to the sights. This worked just fine for a 870 and a beretta o/u.

If I understand what One Ounce is getting at, I should "raise and fire" at 30 yds with no target dot or aiming at the pattern paper. My understanding is one should fire a minimum of 5 shots this way to have any confidence that the shooter didn't screw up his mount.


I was shooting in a T shirt but if I wanted to do this test mount & shoot, should I should wear hunting clothes?
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Old September 1, 2012, 10:56 PM   #9
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Fit

Patterning is done at 30-40 yards. Shooting to determine POI and gun fit is done at 16 yards. Interpreting the results and translating that into adjustments to the fit of the gun is a complex procedure.
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Old September 3, 2012, 02:34 AM   #10
olddrum1
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Might I ask what the gun is actually choked? What do you mean by "Patterning says the gun is choked MOD – FULL"
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Old September 3, 2012, 01:20 PM   #11
oneounceload
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Just because a choke is marked one setting does not mean it actually performs that way - either because the constrictions are different, or a particular ammo performs that way
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Old September 3, 2012, 03:46 PM   #12
longspurr
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Please see the attached pic of my pattern from the left barrel. I am calling it "full choke". but that matters little for this. I held under the dot for the first shot. marked the paper, then held above the dot for the 2nd shot and then marked that one. You can see the displacement to the left of the pattern.
Provided the pic attaches corrently
Attached Images
File Type: jpg left barrel.jpg (77.3 KB, 14 views)
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Old September 3, 2012, 04:26 PM   #13
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When you pattern the gun, start at 30 yards, shoot and draw a 30" circle around the pattern with the densest section in the middle - those circles seem to be about a foot or a little more
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Old September 3, 2012, 05:37 PM   #14
Ricklin
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Convergence

SXS shotguns should be regulated such that the patterns converge at a given distance. I would say that it is pretty normal for your left barrel to shoot left at close range.
Pattern it at 35-40 yards and see what that tells you.
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Old September 3, 2012, 09:14 PM   #15
longspurr
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Oneounce, Ricklin
I will go back to the range this next weekend. The left & right barrels shoot approx the same amount to the left of the target dot. I posted the picture of the left barrel as the pattern was tighter and the offset from aiming point more apparent. to understand the pic better, the black dot is approx 2" in dia. and the circle around the pattern center approx 4" - 5"

If Ricklin is correct (shooting at 30 yds instead of 17 yds) the left barrel may cross back to the right - on center, and the right barrel would then keep crossing to the left - and shoot waaay left.

I have read that doubles are supposed to "cross" at a certain yardage. I've just never put that "fact" to the patterning paper. I would think the crossing point would be affected by the recoil of the gun. Magnum loads crossing at a farther distance?
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Old September 3, 2012, 11:31 PM   #16
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Works for me

If it does not, it will be no big surprise. The Stevens 311 was certainly not the highest end double. In fact I always call this gun the workingman's double.

I'm not putting down your gun, I have two of them myself. They are what they are, a utilitarian double that the average working guy could afford.

I don't know the production numbers of this gun, in fact they also made them for Sears, and other retailers. I do know they made a lot of them, over many years.

I would not bet much that every gun that went out the door was correctly regulated, or would stay that way after getting banged around for who knows how many years.

Both my 311's seem to shoot where I look for the most part, but it has been a few years since I shot them.

I don't know how much time and money I would put in to one that was "off"
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Old September 7, 2012, 08:32 PM   #17
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Since they're not high dollar guns anyway. Take measurements on the butt stock of a shotgun you do hit well with and compare it to your 311. There is the outside chance that you could do some minor changes and get your 311 to shoot lower. A little off or a thin spacer or changing the angle of the butt plate and you never know?
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Old September 8, 2012, 12:19 PM   #18
Ricklin
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Raise the comb

I think our op is primarily concerned with centering R-L. Raise the POI by raising your eye, that's the rear "sight" on a shotgun.

There is a product called the comb raising kit, made by Beartooth. It's a neoprene sleeve, with an assortment of foam pads of differing thickness.

It goes over your buttstock, with the appropriate foam pad on top of the comb.

Very much like cutting the leg off your fishing waders or wetsuit.

I like the product a lot, and they are only about twenty bucks. I got mine at Cabela's
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