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Old August 28, 2012, 10:02 PM   #1
justsoIcanupvotethis
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Titegroup and .44 mag

New Ruger Redhawk owner and fairly new to reloading too for that matter and have a question about Titegroup. What is the big problem everyone seems to have with using Titegroup in a .44? Hodgdon lists 9.0 grains of TG with Nosler 240 grain HP going 1219 fps and 33,500 CUP I dont see the big scary anything there. What is it I am missing?
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Old August 29, 2012, 09:26 AM   #2
totaldla
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Do you have an 8" barrel? If not, you won't see that velocity.

Titegroup is a very dense small flake powder that is the same color as soot. It is very easy to miss a double charge in a large case of the 44mag.

Titegroup probably takes more firearms apart than any other powder.
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Old August 29, 2012, 10:18 AM   #3
Don P
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Quote:
It is very easy to miss a double charge in a large case of the 44mag.

Titegroup probably takes more firearms apart than any other powder.
Thats why you supposed to PAY ATTENTION while reloading. I would suggest that if the OP wants to use titegroup do the following.
Purposely double charge a case "JUST SO HE CAN SEE WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE"
Then dump that charge back into the powder dispenser. This way if he should accidentaly double charge a case he will notice it.
Nothing wrong with Titegroup. I use it for 38/357, 9 mm, 40S&W, and 45 acp with some 15,000 rounds loaded and NO double charges.
Vigilance will pay off while reloading. Clean burning and a little goes a long way.
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Old August 29, 2012, 10:24 AM   #4
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Completely agree with Don, use normal precautions that you should always use in reloading and you will be fine.

Titegroup is probably the most economical powder out there, not that powder cost is a major issue but just FYI. I use 8 grains under a 225 gr LRNFP for a good mid-range .44mag load. Also use it for a good mild .357 mag target load under a 158 gr. plated bullet (5.4 gr.).

Quote:
Titegroup probably takes more firearms apart than any other powder
If this were the case, which I doubt, it's because Titegroup is being used as much or more than anything else. There are lots of pistol powders that make it easy to double-charge a large capacity cartridge.
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Old August 29, 2012, 08:31 PM   #5
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I have a 7.5 inch barrel. If that is the big thing everyone has against Titegroup is the empty space and possible double charge then I am not too concerned. I have an RCBS ChargeMaster Combo unit and a Lee Turret press with the turret removed. I pretty much charge a single case then seat the bullet while the next charge loads itself. That and I am practicaly OCD when it comes to loading anyway. Not in any kind of hurry. Pretty new at this but I am starting on my third pound of Titegroup, has been in just .45 acp and 9mm so far. I like it so far and dont see any big reason to change.
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Old August 29, 2012, 08:38 PM   #6
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Thank you all for the responses. Thats what I thought the "hate" was all about just wanted to be sure.
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Old August 29, 2012, 09:00 PM   #7
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If anyone is concerned about a double charge then there is problem with their loading procedure. After 37 years of reloading without a single double charge, and 10s of thousands of rounds, I am really not worried about it. Of course, I only use a single stage press and have my primed cases on the left side of the powder measure, upside down in the loading block, and the charged cases on the right side. I don't put powder in a case that's right side up without a careful look and upside down tap on the bench. Should never be an issue with proper care. A look at every charged case using a flashlight just before starting seating the bullets is my last check, although I've never found a case with an under or over charge.
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Old August 29, 2012, 09:13 PM   #8
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Should never be an issue with proper care. A look at every charged case using a flashlight just before starting seating the bullets is my last check, although I've never found a case with an under or over charge.
It shouldn't ever be a problem, but with Titegroup if there is a problem you won't necessarily see it in a revolver case even if you look with a flashlight because an undercharge and an overcharge will look about the same and the stuff disappears in the shadows.

If you use cast bullets, TG smokes a lot more than other powders, can cause excess leading, and it makes nasty scorch marks on the brass that won't polish off. If you only shoot jacketed bullets, maybe none of this matters.

Green Dot is pretty much interchangeable with TG without any its bad habits. But Green Dot doesn't measure as well with most powder measures.
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Old August 29, 2012, 09:56 PM   #9
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The staining is not an issue for me, I use stainless steel tumbling media, takes it right off. In the .44 it looks like the couple dollars a pound I save by buying TG I can use to buy Nosler jacketed for just a couple dollars more than buying plated boolits so there is another win-win situation.
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Old August 29, 2012, 10:08 PM   #10
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I use stainless steel tumbling media, takes it right off.
In that case, you should be able to see the powder level OK in the brass because it'll be shiny. That's really hard to do with TG if the insides are stained soot-colored.

If you really want to save some money, try Alliant Promo. It's about $10 per pound (in 8# jugs only) and a little goes a long way.
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Old August 29, 2012, 10:22 PM   #11
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Yeah I like the way the stainless gets the brass all shiny and new looking. I hear that its easier on the dies too if you have clean brass. But you know I am new at this. I also heard that there is no evidence that clean brass shoots any better than dirty, but I like the looks of the clean stuff.
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Old August 30, 2012, 10:27 AM   #12
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So lets be clear: (1) you want to use Titegroup because you think it will save you a couple dollars over 1000 rounds or so. (2) you want to shoot Noslers, which are some of the most expensive bullets available (3) and you want to be able to say "I've got a big HE-MAN 44mag" even though you'll be loading to poofter velocities.(4) you're loading on a single-stage with load blocks and you promise to post pictures of your blown up revolver while claiming it was a manufacturing defect.

It's not "hate", it is experience talking and you're ignoring it.

If you are going to go to the expense of reloading for 44mag, why not make 44mag loads?
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Old August 30, 2012, 07:07 PM   #13
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Lets be perfectly clear. I LIKE Titegroup. I pay attention to what I am doing when I reload. Why buy a more expensive powder that makes less power but at least it uses twice as much? Im sure I could learn to melt wheel weights to make cheap bullets that smoke and lead my gun up but you know, if I am going to spend money maybe I will spend it on quality jacketed bullets that shoot straighter from the get go.
Not sure where you buy your bullets at but I can get Nosler 240 grain from Cabelas (not really the low price leader) for about 22 cents each. Berry's from Cabelas go for 24.5 each, I think I like Noslers for less.
I am going to blow up my gun making bunny fart loads. Yeah I will trust your advice every time.

Last edited by justsoIcanupvotethis; August 30, 2012 at 07:24 PM.
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Old August 30, 2012, 07:28 PM   #14
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A lot of attitude for a new guy, especially one who claims to not have much experience. You're the one who asked for some help.
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Old August 30, 2012, 07:39 PM   #15
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My .02

Reloading is an expression of preference. If you like TG, use it. You asked what you're missing. In my 42 years of reloading, the trend for reloading large caliber (357, 41, 44, and 45LC) is low density loads for target/pleasure use and high density loads for high performance/hunting/maximum use. When I first started loading, the Super Vel craze was on and I was trying to duplicate the 357 loads with Unique. Needless to say, I locked the cylinder by loading Unique instead of 2400. The last thing I would ask you to consider is efficiency. 1200fps is a nice velocity, but if you used H-110, you'd get a couple hundred fps with better accuracy and cartridge efficiency.
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Old August 30, 2012, 08:44 PM   #16
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The burn rate of the powder comes to mind. Tight Group is a pretty fast burning powder. You could use a slower powder like 2400 get less pressure and higher velocities out of your rounds. As far a leading your barrel you need to consider your options and try different loads slug your barrel, proper bullet hardness and diameter for what you are shooting and the leading will be minimal to nonexistent. As far as accuracy lead vs jacketed there is none. I can shoot 1 1/2 groups with my Taurus Raging bull at 40 yards with no problem and no leading using 200 grain lead round nose. Most of us load to save money on target rounds which you do not need full tilt 44 mag rounds for. We also reload because we enjoy it even if we dont save money and those of us that cast boolits dont save a dime if you factor in the time we spend doing it. But we do have accurate shooting with minimal to no leading what so ever. Pick up some 240 grain lead wad cutters and load them with your tight group10 grains for MAX LOAD ON THEM according to my loading manual. Then try a powder like h 110 or 2400 at the same speeds.

Last edited by fishbones182; September 2, 2012 at 06:19 PM.
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Old August 30, 2012, 08:53 PM   #17
justsoIcanupvotethis
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Sorry about the attitude. I just dont understand how it can make less power yet blow up my gun. I dont see the benefit of loading almost twice as much of a more expensive powder to get the same results. I must be missing something.
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Old August 30, 2012, 09:02 PM   #18
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The blowing up your gun im sure comes form the good chance of a double charge not getting noticed while reloading due to the small amount of powder it takes in such a large case is all. Pressures are a very important thing to watch when your reloading and never go the velocity listed in the books get a crony and do it your self and always start at the bottom and work up from there. Keep in mind you should check your casings and primers for signs of pressure as your working your loads up.
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Old August 30, 2012, 10:55 PM   #19
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If you want to load good 44 mag rounds, you should listen to this guy and get a can of 2400. It shoots better than Titegroup and is worth a couple extra pennies for that reason alone.
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Old August 30, 2012, 11:13 PM   #20
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Get some 240 grain SWC or RNFP cast bullets and a pound of Herco. You should be able to find a really good load somewhere around 12 grains.

There's nothing wrong with 2400 and AA#9 powders either, but it will take closer to 20 grains.
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Old August 31, 2012, 09:35 AM   #21
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Justso . . . the reason faster powders like Titegroup make less power yet can blow up your gun is because of the way the pressure builds. They are called "faster" because they reach peak pressure faster. The "slower" powders like 2400, H110 and my favorite, Accurate 4100, burn more slowly, so they reach their peak pressures later (farther down the barrel), which accelerates the bullet more effectively giving it greater velocity.

With a 240 gr Nosler JHP the max Titegroup load is 10.0 grains, giving 1292 fps at 37,700 copper units of pressure. Using the same bullet with H110 (very slow powder for handguns) the max load is 24.0 grains, giving 1522 fps at 36,200 copper units of pressure.

If you don't need maximum velocity (power) and want to save some money on powder, choose a medium speed pistol powder like HS-6, which gives 1400+ fps with only 15 grains of powder.
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Old August 31, 2012, 09:40 AM   #22
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I just thought of an example to illustrate the difference between fast and slow powders.

If you put a baseball on a tee and punch it as hard as you can (fast peak pressure), how far will it fly? Maybe 40 or 50 feet.

But if you throw the ball as hard as you can (slow peak pressure), it will fly several hundred feet. The longer interval the ball is gaining momentum in your hand results in more energy imparted to the ball and greater velocity.
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Old August 31, 2012, 09:59 AM   #23
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good analogy, I think, black mamba.

Another theory I have read about pressure spikes/detonations in large cases with fast powders is "positional differences" ..... all the powder piled up at the front or back of the case, or spread out evenly ...... the differences in area exposed to the primer flame ..... don't remember the science of it .... anybody else?
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Old August 31, 2012, 12:41 PM   #24
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The amount of powder in the case (putting you at risk of a double charge) is not the big risk when using Titegroup in something like .44 Mag.

It's all about the end results of the load and the pressure peak -- and the curve at the top.

It can be argued that anything that is loaded in to a piece of .44 Magnum brass that spits out a projectile can be called a ".44 Magnum" but the bottom line is that you cannot get to proper, full top-end .44 Magnum velocities with Titegroup if you want to stay within SAAMI max and not damage your firearm. You can't. It's not possible.

If you are looking for a ".44 Mag" load that doesn't send the bullet downrange as quickly as a factory round and doesn't recoil as much as a factory round, then Titegroup can work for that role. It's not my choice, it never will be, but used properly and within published range, it's not unsafe.

Here's the other part of my point -- the pressure curve. If you pllotted out a charge weight with a returned velocity and max pressure on a graph, you'd get a visual of how these powders run. When you use a proper powder that's intended for the range that something like .44 Magnum likes to work in (Accurate #9, 2400, H110, IMR-4227) you have a pressure curve that builds like a nice incline, like driving up a hill. It gets higher and higher in a somewhat predictable, linear fashion. You can drive up that hill at a moderate pace with an expected rise to a peak.

If you use a fast burning powder (Titegroup, Bullseye, Accurate #2, W231, Red Dot) and you try to build max loads in .44 Magnum, the graph does NOT look like a rising hill. It looks like the peak of Everest and you can't drive up it, you can barely climb the SOB and you need equipment and extreme skill, strength and luck to get to the top. It doesn't rise in a linear fashion or anything close to it. Instead, it shoots up to it's peak like a rocket... one minute everything is routine and good, the next moment the rise is vertical and you don't know how you got there and you may have gone too far.

That's why the proper place to use a powder like Titegroup is in a target load in the range for which it's intended. It can be used in .44 Magnum even safely, but it won't replicate a proper, fast, heavy, true .44 Magnum load.

And if you look at the economy of it, it's ludicrous to even try. Seriously. 7,000 grains of powder in one pound. Do the math and see what powder costs to see what kind of "savings" you think you might get by using Titegroup over something such as Alliant 2400.
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Old August 31, 2012, 12:58 PM   #25
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How many pounds of powder would you have to save to pay for a new gun?
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