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Old September 20, 2012, 01:57 PM   #51
BlueTrain
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One of the problems faced by anyone considering this question is that the more you read about it, the more conflicting opinions one will find. One magazine writer several years ago suggested that neither military exprience nor hunting experience (sucessful hunting, I presume) adds much to one's self-defense capability. I wonder about the first claim, not so much about the other.

Zombietactics response is good. Participants in some competitions have complained that often the rules are highly artificial and nonsensical in some of the details, or so they say. Yet I'm sure they are better than nothing. I still wonder if any competition can prepare one's self for the ultimate challenge, which is not winning the gunfight but rather being mentally prepared to kill someone. That is not to say that winnng the gunfight is not important, only that the fact that this is about killing someone seems to be either ignored or assumed away. Naturally, this is only a problem to the good guys reading this forum. The bad guys reading this forum have probably already come to grips with that dilemma.
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Old September 20, 2012, 04:46 PM   #52
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BT, given the number of LEOs and veterans in the forum, I imagine a fair number of good guys have come to grips with the concept, too.
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Old September 21, 2012, 07:37 AM   #53
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Being in a Club, after midnight, in any City, puts you in more of a location (Minus your CCW) to get killed by gunfire, than practically any other place.

So smart locations are good, always carrying a Hi Cap pistol is good, shooting a sport like IDPA can not be bad either.

Spending your formative years in inner City's? Anywhere, can't be bad either.

Having a person with you, who you would die for? Turns you in to a very dangerous individual when threat comes to visit. With or without a gun.
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Old September 21, 2012, 10:25 AM   #54
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"Spending your formative years in inner City's? Anywhere, can't be bad either."
True words. I was fortunate (?) to spend most of my early adult work life in places like East Oakland and South Stockton. I did not realize the advantage this experience provides until much later in life.
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Old September 21, 2012, 11:38 AM   #55
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Quote:
One of the problems faced by anyone considering this question is that the more you read about it, the more conflicting opinions one will find. One magazine writer several years ago suggested that neither military exprience nor hunting experience (sucessful hunting, I presume) adds much to one's self-defense capability. I wonder about the first claim, not so much about the other.
I do believe my past military training and combat experience has added to my self defense capability and has allowed me to overcome the mental problems associated with taking another persons life. Does military experience prepare everyone, No! As we all know many people that experience a traumatic experience don't have the ability to overcome the experience and suffer from the effects the remainder of their lives.
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Old September 23, 2012, 12:30 PM   #56
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If you have IDPA type firearms skill, then you would certainly apply alot of that skill in a real defensive situation. How well you apply it would greatly depend on your level of common sense and measure of personal grit.

Wrestling is not combat and it isnt martial arts. Could a person who is a good wrestler manage to implement a wrestling move as part of a real defense? Sure he could. Could a wrestler be a dangerous person to engage in a physical confrontation, Sure. Could a IDPA master be a dangerous person to engage in a gun fight? Sure.
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Old September 23, 2012, 12:42 PM   #57
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I assume you're referring to wrestling as a sport as in school. However, I have heard it said that boxers can be difficult people to deal with, or words to that effect, because they're used to pain.
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Old September 24, 2012, 04:18 AM   #58
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Using the same pistol, and holster you carry, for IDPA competition. Means you have drawn and fired, from concealment a lot. When you see new members gear? And see it change as they get smart, and more experienced, you are then miles ahead in the ability to deploy your defensive equipment.

That in it's self can't be bad. Reading the NRA Magazine, lets you know the use of self defense places, house or dwelling, a lot!

It also shows many instances where people are shot at, from close up... And are not hit. So, a good pistol, night sights, a flash light close at hand, and practice on the range, picking up you pistol to fire, not the same as from a holster.

Many articles talk of the trauma of shooting someone? It sure as heck beats being shot!
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Old September 24, 2012, 10:39 AM   #59
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Watching some new IDPA folks with atrocious grips, terribly slow reloads, clueless on malfunctions and complete misses on easy targets - I think skills practice speaks for itself.

More power to them for coming out and we are a very supportive group. We had some new to the group LEOs (not the above) who thought it was very useful as they officially shoot twice a year.
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Old September 24, 2012, 12:02 PM   #60
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Glen, So many LEOs attend IDPA, and do not come back, made to feel not welcome.

That is such a pity, we as shooters with years of experience, can help (and not being seen as condescending) as you say, shooting twice a year is not really adequate.
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Old September 24, 2012, 02:47 PM   #61
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I didn't say they weren't welcome. They are very welcome. We have LEOs who shoot with us all the time and are at the top of the ranks.

One reason folks don't come back - esp. males, is that they may have thought they were intuitive and cracker jack shots and find out they are not. It takes a bit of ego strength to say I'm not so good and I want to learn.

One problem when the naive male brings the naive female is that the naive male doesn't look good and then tells the naive female that the game is ...

Also, when skilled folks (very nicely) try to tell the female something, the so called dominant male bristles at the territorial violation.

We are a very supportive group with no range tyrants or blusterers.
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Old September 25, 2012, 08:46 AM   #62
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Quote:
One reason folks don't come back - esp. males, is that they may have thought they were intuitive and cracker jack shots and find out they are not.
I've seen that a million times. Not just in IDPA, but in all shooting venues, and not just with cops although they are well represented in that group.

Ego is a huge roadblock to learning to shoot, not only in competition but training. Many fail to get the training because their ego wont let them find out just how much they don't know or can't do.

Quote:
We are a very supportive group with no range tyrants or blusterers
I haven't shot with your group but I've shot all over the country, and I found that to be true just about everywhere, in every shooting venue.

Added to that, it seems like the best, most experienced shooters are the first one's to take a new shooter under their wings, helping them to get started, and making them feel welcome.

Every time I show up at a new place, I find three things ALWAYS happens:

1: I have fun
2: I learn something

And best of all

3: I meet new friends

I don't care if its IDPA, ICORE, High Power, Bullseye..............any type of shooting its always the same.

I'm not a cop any more, I'm not a soldier anymore, I'm just an old man who enjoys shooting and enjoys shooters.

I don't care if I win, I only care if I learned enough to beat MY last scores, and I want to meet and visit with others like mined people.

I'll relate a story that occurred a couple matches ago at one of the clubs I shoot with, that explains why I like shooters.

It was a falling plate match where we shot both CF and RF.

A friend of mine, and one of our clubs better shooters shows me an old 22 revolver someone gave him to fix. A real piece of junk.

I like revolvers and shoot them in most matches regardless how slow I am to reload compared to hi cap mag auto loaders.

I'm shooting my Model 18 Smith, so I challenge him to use that old revolver in the 22 match. We're shooting head to head, double elimination.

I should have held my own anyway but he was a better shooter, but where I beat him was in reloads, I reloaded mine, no problem, when he started to reload his revolver, hit the ejector the cylinder flew out and on the ground.

He laughs harder then I did. Now this allowed his wife to win the RF event and she didn't let him forget it.

To me, late in life, this is what shooting is about, fun and the comradeship.

It's much more fun laughing at my screw ups (and I still make my share) then gloating over my successes.

No one remembers your perfect score, but they always remember the time you shot all the hostage targets and let the bad guy targets go..............(yeap I've done that too.................it really helps to keep that story going with my fellow shooters knowing I was a LE Sniper).
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Old October 1, 2012, 06:39 PM   #63
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Kraig,

The first time I shot at a new club, to me, IDPA. Their no shoot targets had a smiley face! I was used to two black hands.

First stage, I shot 4 no shoots! My squad were rolling around on the ground!
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Old October 2, 2012, 11:12 AM   #64
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The first time I shot at a new club, to me, IDPA. Their no shoot targets had a smiley face! I was used to two black hands.

First stage, I shot 4 no shoots! My squad were rolling around on the ground!
I'd have shot them, too. Anybody grinning in the middle of a gun fight ought to get shot.
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Old October 2, 2012, 04:57 PM   #65
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"May I ask why you felt little Tiffany deserved to die?"
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Old October 3, 2012, 09:07 AM   #66
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I think no shoots are a crucial part of competition and a good reality test.

Many times folks say that if a critical incident occurs, they will just take them out. I note that many scenarios may or may not be realistic but ...

In our last match, we had two BGs with a no-shoot in the center. You have to move towards the targets and fire. They were very tight. The NO-shoot was righteously hosed - by long time and skilled shooters. I forget what I did

It seemed that from the draw and on the first step, it was some combination of the stars and the poor innocent took it in COM and the head.

Oh, well!
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Old October 3, 2012, 11:06 AM   #67
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In competition, plugging a "no-shoot" will hurt your score. In real life shooting a "no-shoot" is at least likely to significantly damage your bank balance -- plus you will need to live with the fact that you shot, and perhaps disabled or killed, an upstanding member of the community.
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Old October 3, 2012, 11:20 AM   #68
Glenn E. Meyer
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The psychology of the no-shoot is interesting. One moral heuristic seems to be that it is wrong to take an innocent life even to save other innocent lives.

This is instinctual perhaps so the risk ratio argument may not contradict it. So in arguments about campus carry - the risk that a good guy might kill an innocent to save many doesn't work for some.

Consider the scenario, where a shooter enters a locale. You shoot him before the massacre really rolls but also shoot some helpless person. Think that will look good for you?

In competition or FOF, shooting an innocent points out that it may not be easy to just take them out in a good shoot.

I remember my partner in an FOF exercise clearing a house, coming out from a room, saying - I just shot my son.
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Old October 3, 2012, 12:24 PM   #69
Don P
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Quote:
Glen, So many LEOs attend IDPA, and do not come back, made to feel not welcome.

That is such a pity, we as shooters with years of experience, can help (and not being seen as condescending) as you say, shooting twice a year is not really adequate.
Brit, take a ride and join us out in the country at the VCGHC in DeLand on State Road 44.

I concur with Glenn, we go out of our way with new shooters to make sure they have a safe enjoyable time leaving with the feeling that they were/are welcome at our matches and that they have the want to come back and shoot again with us. Over the past 2 + years we are seeing more new faces at our matches and those new faces are turning into old familiar faces and bringing new faces with them.
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Old October 3, 2012, 01:06 PM   #70
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I think no shoots are a crucial part of competition and a good reality test.

Many times folks say that if a critical incident occurs, they will just take them out. I note that many scenarios may or may not be realistic but ...

In our last match, we had two BGs with a no-shoot in the center. You have to move towards the targets and fire. They were very tight. The NO-shoot was righteously hosed - by long time and skilled shooters. I forget what I did

It seemed that from the draw and on the first step, it was some combination of the stars and the poor innocent took it in COM and the head.

Oh, well!
Lat time I shot in competition the no kill target was wearing a white hat. A hit on him zeroed your score for the match and you were done for the day. Out of nearly 100 shooters he was plugged 4 or 5 times which was pretty good considering some of the shooters we had.
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Old October 3, 2012, 10:46 PM   #71
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"May I ask why you felt little Tiffany deserved to die?"
"Well, she was the only one that actually seemed dangerous at the time, sir."
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Old October 4, 2012, 12:22 AM   #72
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Consider the scenario, where a shooter enters a locale. You shoot him before the massacre really rolls but also shoot some helpless person. Think that will look good for you?
It can look bad for you if anyone gets shot. If the bad guy is shooting back and hits a bystander, it can always be argued that you shouldn't have engaged him to begin with.

A defensive shooting with lots of innocents around comes with a lot of inherent risks. It's a bad situation to be involved in.

Quote:
It seemed that from the draw and on the first step, it was some combination of the stars and the poor innocent took it in COM and the head.
At least he didn't suffer.
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Old October 5, 2012, 11:01 AM   #73
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Nice article on competition by Green in Tom Given's latest news letter.

http://www.rangemaster.com/current-newsletter.html

Makes some of the same points that we have been making.
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Old October 6, 2012, 06:05 PM   #74
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Last match I did not hit a no shoot, but I did hit the metal filing cabinets the targets were using as cover, still hit the 5 ring. After we got done laughing I said " 357 magnum,turning cover into concealment for 80 years".
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Old October 7, 2012, 11:03 AM   #75
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Went hog hunting west of Lake Okeechobee on Friday with a buddy and his grandson. I used my S&W 686 SSR and my handloads. It’s been raining a lot and the brush was amazingly thick. My first shot at the hog was deflected by a branch. The hog came out running full-tilt to my right, about 15 feet away. Two quick double-action shots put him down.

My point: When the hog came running out of the brush, my shooting was totally automatic. I was aware of where the other people and the dogs were. I was very conscious of my front sight on the hog. The gun seemed to fire itself. The pro hunter told me he’d never seen anyone shoot a DA revolver that fast and accurately.

I credit my shooting to all my years of shooting IDPA and Steel Challenge with a wheelgun.

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