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Old August 30, 2012, 10:01 PM   #26
Deaf Smith
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The competencies:

1. Willful incompetence (those that don't want to learn)

2. Unconscious incompetence (people without a clue)

3. Conscious incompetence (people who just realize they don't have a clue)

4. Conscious competence (were most of us who train some are.)

5. Unconscious competence (where you strive to be)

If you are at 4 and keep your head you should prevail.

But better yet is to be at 5 and your mind is freed situational awareness with no distractions as to tools or techniques.

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Old August 30, 2012, 11:49 PM   #27
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It is interesting to hear the words, “spray and pray” quoted. I have seen statistics from WWII, Korea and Viet Nam and yes it is amazing how many rounds were fired in each of those wars for each enemy soldier killed. I have not seen statistics for Iraq and Afghanistan but I imagine those wars would reflect the same trend.

In Nam I burst fired or semi fired my M16, even with helicopter re-supply my worst nightmare was running out of ammo so I don’t consider what we did to be spraying and praying although I will admit to doing a lot of praying over there, still do.

I just shot eight different machine guns over this last weekend and it was easy to fire each one on burst fire except for the German WWII MG42, however I have never been put in the position of being overrun or mass suicide charges and I think a well trained infantryman should have the option of semi auto or burst fire or full auto.

Snipers are a whole different ball game, while extremely dangerous if you have done your job well the enemy you are about to take out does not even know you are there and there is no incoming fire so you can concentrate on the shot. I would compare snipers to the bowmen, the longbowmen and recurve shooters of ancient battles.

The average grunt or infantryman I would compare to a gladiator, you are going to close with the enemy and kill him in hand to hand combat or in modern days close quarters combat, a very violent and messy affair.

Sure we should all train and competition does add some stress but it can never equal the stress of the survival instinct which they say is the strongest instinct of the human animal. When you are about to die it is amazing what kicks in and what your mind and body can do, it is such a high I at one time thought if I could be that way all the time it would be unreal what I could accomplish if only you could be that way without it being combat, and for that reason only I dreaded going back to dull and slow civilian life. But then reality sunk in, to be that high on adrenalin all the time would probably kill anyone within a week.

Sometimes you do react without thinking and I have been in firefights where I was almost like a robot and detached mentally, other times things went into slow motion but my body was moving lighting fast, it was still slower than my mind moving at light speed and that is why it seemed like slow motion so you can think faster than you can react. Combat does other strange things to you also.

So yes, training and competition are important, I carry my firearm for two reasons, one to defend my life or the lives of loved ones or others and two if someday a man actually does take me out, I want to at least have the chance to take him along for the ride.
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Old August 31, 2012, 12:58 AM   #28
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There are a combination of factors which make a person able to fight. Technical skill is one component in the equation, and competition is helpful with that, and is an excellent tool to hone skill, develop your equipment, reveal weaknesses, etc. Self defense situations place an equal amount if not more emphasis on the mental game, situational awareness, willingness to act, confidence, personality type, lots of considerations, which do not come into play in the competitive environment.
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Old August 31, 2012, 05:36 AM   #29
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No offense to the combat infantrymen (who should be compared to Roman soldiers, not gladiators) or the snipers lurking about here (that is, 500 yards away) but those things are of little relevance to someone investigating a noise in their house where they keep the family silver or to a partygoer outside their favorite club at 2:00 AM back in the parking lot. But most of the other stuff is good.

Now about that kill ratio for bullets fired: you are again measuring efficiency the wrong way. Efficiency is winning the war and achieving your objectives. You can lose most of the battles (but not the last one), have more casualties and still win the war. Think like Grant. Lose a battle and advance. Don't be like some generals and win the battle, then fall back.
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Old August 31, 2012, 06:43 AM   #30
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The often used thought pattern of the general gun carrier. Competition is not training for a gun fight?

OK, but you can not practice a gun fight! So what can you practice, what component can help?

With the Pistol you carry (CCW) in my case a Glock 19, with the holster I carry, a Glock wee plastic one, suitably cut down, and use this same combination in a IDPA match. If you need to draw and fire at a person, in a SD situation, you have accessed that same pistol, from the same holster, a whole bunch of times.

The act of initiating an attack on a human target, is triggered by a huge hit of adrenalin, then all else is more or less automatic.

Believe it or believe it not, my auto response comes from 5 years as a Bouncer, 3 nights a week, in Liverpool UK, this job hones your instant fight valve, no thinking, that just takes to long.

This stays with you, for life. Case in point, my last physical altercation was in 2004, at age 69. I won that easily, using the Scouse axiom, "Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you, but do it first!"

I did not think, just moved. And I was armed, concealed, never thought of the Gun, it was not a gun call. The same old stimulus, a possible threat to my lovely Wife. And I have to say, at 76 YOA, nothing has changed.
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Old August 31, 2012, 07:21 AM   #31
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Hey, Mersey man, I think we've traded comments before.

But on to the thread; I'm certain competition would help in a self-defense situation, only it needs qualification. Bowling pin match? Maybe. Long distance shooting competition with a rifle? Maybe, maybe not. Others? Probably better.

I may have asked this before but I don't remember what the answer might have been. Is there a competition that mimics what an armed civilian might face at home or on the street? Does it have a special name? What are the rules?

When threads like this come up where people speak of practical pistol work, drawing and shooting from concealment and so on, I remember something that Jeff Cooper said when he was asked about a concealed weapon that he might carry if he went into a bar or a place like that. His answer?

"I don't go in places like that."
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Old August 31, 2012, 08:18 AM   #32
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But on to the thread; I'm certain competition would help in a self-defense situation, only it needs qualification. Bowling pin match? Maybe. Long distance shooting competition with a rifle? Maybe, maybe not. Others? Probably better.
IMO, any and all competition would be a help, basic shooting skills apply to both long guns and handguns. Certainly competition oriented towards the type of weapon and method of carry/use would build more specific skills but competition is always good trigger time, regardless.


Quote:
I may have asked this before but I don't remember what the answer might have been. Is there a competition that mimics what an armed civilian might face at home or on the street? Does it have a special name? What are the rules?
IDPA competition is designed to simulate situations that someone might encounter in every day life using common concealed carry "type" guns and gear. Some scenarios are a little more far fetched than others but they all reward speed, accuracy, and gun handling skills (draw, reloads, malfunction clearing, etc). In general the rules are such that they create a safe shooting environment and level the playing field as best they can. Semi autos are limited to 10rds in the mag + 1 in the chamber, revolvers to 6rds and There are 5 different weapon categories so that you are competing against folks with similar gear. The use of cover and concealment is encouraged, and in many scenarios required. A cover garment is also required for most competitors, further simulating every day concealed carry. There's much more to it but hopefully this gives you an idea what it's about. Obviously you should check the IDPA web site for more info if you're interested.
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Old August 31, 2012, 05:17 PM   #33
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IDPA Download the rules, find a club that shoots this sport, fill your boots.

The good thing about IDPA, you can shoot it with your carry pistol, concealed, and do good whilst getting realistic draw and fire practice.

And enough reload practice to far outweigh what you would do in a square, indoor range.

I met with, and spoke with Jeff Cooper on more than one occasion, one time on his range, even visited his GUN room, WOW.

We had a lively discussion about, as he said to my Son, "Your Dad is quite a good guy, despite his penchant for that Pip-Squeak calibre, the 9mm"

He was a big guy, he was level with my Son, at 6'3", beautifully spoken, well educated, ex Lt Col. of Marines?
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Old August 31, 2012, 06:40 PM   #34
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The often used thought pattern of the general gun carrier. Competition is not training for a gun fight?

OK, but you can not practice a gun fight! So what can you practice, what component can help?
In my case a variety of experiences from having to learn to street fight when I was 12 to football to wrestling to boxing to handgun hunting small game and deer with a revolver and a pistol. Various types of competition from bullseye to International to PPC to being a trainer for police departments. Being permanent Shore Patrol meant going into places the beat patrolmen didn't go and you are keyed up pretty tight. It all adds up to life experience and will express itself when needed.

The last time I had to draw and shoot my gun in a hurry was when I was attacked by a feral dog and I had just broken my right wrist the day before. I drew and shot left handed and made the kill before I consciously thought about it. Range time doesn't account for that except I habitually include a few minutes of weak handed shooting in every session. Fight reflex had more to do with it and if you have never been in a fight it might not be there. Then again you might surprise yourself.

There are those who run to a fire to fight it and those who run from the fire to safety and the large number who stand and look at the fire in awe and are extremely useless unless trained to respond. If you are one who grabs a fire extinguisher and runs to the fire you will do fine.
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Old August 31, 2012, 06:46 PM   #35
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I have not seen statistics for Iraq and Afghanistan but I imagine those wars would reflect the same trend.
Well for the Arabs I bet it has continued since alot of their technique is to stick the AK over the top of the wall and fire fully auto, but for the G.I.s I bet the trend is in reverse. Less rounds per terrorist killed.

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Old September 1, 2012, 11:47 AM   #36
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IDPA competition is designed to simulate situations that someone might encounter in every day life
This is true, but I think many people overestimate its value, for several reasons:

1. The techniques are really a starting point. What you'll do in a split-second SD situation is quickly draw and fire using whatever technique you've practiced to the point of it becoming an automatic, unthinking reflex. The IDPA/IPSC techniques can give you some good ideas of WHAT to practice in that manner, but it does not substitute for that practice in any sense of the word, not even close.

2. In competition, you are in complete control. You know in advance what you're going to do, when you're going to do it, and where and what the targets are. Then - when you're ready - you commence firing. A SD situation is the total opposite. You can not pick and choose the time and place where it will happen, or what condition you will be in, or what the lighting or weather or background will be, what clothing you'll be wearing, whether you'll have your wife under your arm, etc.

3. Most obviously, it doesn't reproduce the paralyzing stress of a sudden, unexpected, split-second, life and death SD firearm situation, when you stop breathing, your mind shuts down, your vision narrows, your hearing become garbled, your body stiffens. This is why you hear stories of 3 or 4 police officers emptying their guns at a BG and missing.

To really simulate a SD situation, the target needs to have a mechanism where the shooter stands in one spot. Suddenly, anywhere within a 360 degree direction, a target pops up. A cocked gun, aimed at the spot where the shooter is standing, is connected electronically to the target. The gun will quickly fire 5 shots after 1 second has elapsed. The ONLY way to stop it is to hit the target 3 times first. Any takers?

I'm not trying to be offensive or anything - I think IDPA and IPSC are great, and yes they are useful, but it's important not to overestimate their value in real life. Just shooting in some IDPA matches on Saturday afternoon doesn't turn you into a death machine.
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Old September 1, 2012, 01:56 PM   #37
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We laugh when we go over the IDPA stages, as the reasonable first response for most is to run for your life. You probably shouldn't advance against multiple BGs.

Or you hear your boss being killed in the office - oh, I think I'll go save him from 6 armed guys.

But it is fun and some reasonable trigger time. We recently had an argument on a stage about reloading from cover. I shoot from the open on the move and then have to reload. From where I'm standing I can get behind two barricades and a large barrel set and reload while advanced to those props. I get a penalty for reloading on the move - even though I'm covered. I should have come to the props and then reload. Silly, SO and match director took off the penalty after the usual arm waving (all friendly). They said it was a gray area and the new rules update hopefully will clarify for reasonableness - but they don't know.
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Old September 1, 2012, 03:24 PM   #38
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Yeah, IDPA reloading rules are a great source of confusion and discussion at our matches.
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Old September 4, 2012, 01:40 PM   #39
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2. In competition, you are in complete control. You know in advance what you're going to do, when you're going to do it, and where and what the targets are. Then - when you're ready - you commence firing. A SD situation is the total opposite. You can not pick and choose the time and place where it will happen, or what condition you will be in, or what the lighting or weather or background will be, what clothing you'll be wearing, whether you'll have your wife under your arm, etc.

Quote:
3. Most obviously, it doesn't reproduce the paralyzing stress of a sudden, unexpected, split-second, life and death SD firearm situation, when you stop breathing, your mind shuts down, your vision narrows, your hearing become garbled, your body stiffens. This is why you hear stories of 3 or 4 police officers emptying their guns at a BG and missing.
I haven't ever had to shoot back, but I think most of the time if you're attacked, you probably have some time to prepare. A couple of weeks ago, I saw someone robbed with a knife. I had just jogged past a guy who was sitting behind the corner of a building. I watched him until I was about 40 feet past him. I turned my head and continued. He attempted to rob the two guys who were walking behind me. The robber chased them out into the middle of the street with a knife until they got my attention and I came back and ran him off.

I never felt nervous or paralyzed or stop breathing. I didn't really feel anything except maybe a little anger until it was over. I never felt the situation get out of control. I would have been emotional if I had to shoot him, but that would have been after everything was over.

I don't think competition is an end-all-be-all solution for training. You need training for skill, mindset, and tactics. IDPA and IPSC help build skill and prepare you for some level of stress. There was a study a while back surveying people's greatest fears- fear of public speaking outranked fear of death by a large margin. The fear of a couple of dozen people watching you fumble a stage isn't the same, but it can induce enough stress to cause you to default to your training.
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Old September 5, 2012, 04:06 AM   #40
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I never felt nervous or paralyzed or stop breathing. I didn't really feel anything except maybe a little anger until it was over. I never felt the situation get out of control. I would have been emotional if I had to shoot him, but that would have been after everything was over.
To chase some one, when you have a gun, and they have a knife, is reasonably stress free.

You are most likely not a scardy cat, which makes the difference. As you say, it would have been a whole different set of problems, if you had shot him.

Some one who, on his own, is waiting to ambush who ever, in the open, has some guts also, and in this case was not stupid.
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Old September 5, 2012, 07:59 AM   #41
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Practice, and competition are great places to develop your skills. How you carry, draw, load, and grip the gun, move, and utilize cover. If however you want to learn to deal with stress, I would suggest taking up a fighting sport, like Boxing, or some other fighting style that will allow you to fight hard, and learning how to deal with the physical response of facing unscripted danger, and think/ act while mixing it up.
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Old September 16, 2012, 07:22 AM   #42
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In my first in ring experience, at a Catholic Boxing Club, in England, I was 15 yoa.

Because I was big for my age, 5'10", I was paired up with a boxer, who was going pro! His Brother and I had been in a fight at School, a week prior.

We both were real marked up, shook hands, he convinced me to join Lowe House Boxing Club. (I was not good in our fight!)

My School Buddy, Cunningham, told his Brother we were mates!
But I knew I was in for a beating!

The referee, a Priest, gave the ring warnings, no hitting below the belt, etc.

As a survivalist (if there is such a word) my plan was simple, I shot off the ropes, flew across the ring, and punched my opponent in the throat!

That was the end of that match, almost did Cunny in! Picked up some good training in that little club. Polished all points, as a part time Bouncer in Liverpool, 5 years. Biggest one, watching. Second, hit first.
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Old September 16, 2012, 02:59 PM   #43
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Here's an excellent podcast conversation on this very subject - whether competition experience will help to survive the real thing.
Episode 190 of the Handgunworld podcasts:
http://www.handgunworld.com/page/2/
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Old September 16, 2012, 11:37 PM   #44
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IIRC he used a 380?
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Old September 17, 2012, 09:07 PM   #45
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I am of the opinion that anything (including competitions like IPSC and IPDA) that requires me to become proficient with my pistol under stress is a good thing when it comes to SD shootings.
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Old September 20, 2012, 04:57 AM   #46
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One simple question

I have one question with a long build up .

Ok you have twin brothers ( or clones ). They are exactly the same , exept in one way . They have all the same life experiences but one of them has been shooting competition for years The other has never picked up a gun in his life .

Quote:
You see the bad guy. You see a gun in his hand, the hammer back, his finger on the trigger. He sees you. He raises his gun as he turns in your direction. In the next half-second, you are probably going to die.

Now, in THAT SPECIFIC situation, at THAT specific moment:

Your brain will shut down. You will NOT think.

You will stop breathing.

Your vision will narrow, and it will be difficult to scan your visual field and focus.

You will hear sounds and voices if they are present, but you will not be able to mentally process them.

Your body will stiffen, and your conscious control of your muscles will be dramatically reduced.

Your pulse and blood pressure will instantly skyrocket.

Now... in THAT state... in THAT half-second... what are you going to do?
Which brother do you want in a gun fight ? At any range .

.
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Old September 20, 2012, 10:42 AM   #47
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"... one of the has been shooting competition for years The other has never picked up a gun in his life ..."
Kind of a false dichotomy, duncha think? I think we'd all agree that someone with significant trigger time would fare better than someone without any at all ... assuming that the problem can be solved by shooting.

And that's the real rub now, isn't it? "Self Defense" embodies a whole lot of things which don't necessarily have anything to do with weapons skills. It's very easy to see everything as a gun fight, because we all have an affinity in that regard.

The brother who has been shooting competition for years ... he's probably not been using cover effectively or having any concern for rounds coming back the other way. That's not the way he has "trained" ... for years. Is he suddenly going to "rise to the occasion" or reflexively do what he has been doing over-n-over-n-over? Is this a quickdraw competition? Can he outdraw a gun already pointed in? I doubt it.

The question is not one of whether or not competition is of benefit. Clearly it is. The issue is more to the effect of what benefits are gained, and what potential problems should be guarded against owning to possibly inculcating a competition mindset versus one better suited to self defense?

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Old September 20, 2012, 11:26 AM   #48
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zombietactics, you assume a type of competition that does not require use of cover. IDPA, for one example, does.
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Old September 20, 2012, 12:01 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by MLeake
zombietactics, you assume a type of competition that does not require use of cover. IDPA, for one example, does.
No, I observe that USPSA/IPSC does not requires the use cover at all. IDPA uses cover, just not effectively, IMHO. Crowding up to cover and having as much as 50% of one's body exposed is not a good way to "get home alive" from my perspective.

Aside from the above example, there is a marked difference in mindset and tactics. What do I shoot in competition? A clearly marked target. When do I shoot it? Either a) When I want to, or b) in the order determined by an arbitrary set of rules. What do I shoot in reality? Maybe nothing at all. Maybe something clearly defined or not so clearly defined. I shoot (or not) in whatever order and at whatever distance the threat presents itself. When do I shoot? When the dynamically unfolding situation determines I should.

If you take my meaning clearly, it is not a criticism of competition, only of doing nothing else, and perhaps thereby adopting a mindset and set of skills not so well suited to surviving.

In any case where the solution to "the problem" is limited to simply shooting quickly and accurately, the skilled competitor has a supreme advantage. In all others, something else/more is required.

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Old September 20, 2012, 01:03 PM   #50
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I must admit I have not read all the post . I have read about 80 percent of them . None of the post I have read including the original post ask's , if any other firearms training is more beneficial to your over all experience or ability to use a gun in a stressful situation then shooting competition .I will admit I would take a navy seal over the brother with competition experience every time . IMHO If the question is anything more then does shooting in competition give you an avantage in a gun fight . ( full stop ) nothing more added or assumed . You open the hole debate up for to many assumtions and what if's .
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