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Old September 1, 2012, 02:45 PM   #51
dahermit
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I am not a lawyer, but I have been told by one that if he's my defense attorney after a gunfight he wants to present that my handgun is DAO. That means I'm not irresponsibly aiming a cocked gun that I discharge by accident. Therefore I must necessarily have been in fear for my life.

Again, I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one on tv. But my hammer is bobbed.
Also, a D.A. only gun would suggest that you were carrying with a mind-set of self-protection only, not some cowboy looking to be a vigilante inasmuch as a snub-D.A.-only is more likely to be interpreted by a jury as defensive compared to spur-cocking for an execution shot. As a State cop told us in our CCW class, "...have no doubt, if you pull your gun and shoot your life will not ever be the same...there will be unlawful death suits that will follow, no matter how justified you were in shooting." Note: Bernard Getts was sued and lost, will pay the rest of his life despite the fact that the three perps had sharpened screw drivers and all had extensive rap sheets. Concealed carriers had better stack the deck as much in their favor as possible.
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Old September 2, 2012, 02:23 AM   #52
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Look at the Bruce Willis movie 16 Blocks. They got the drop on bad guys twice with a Model 60. And they announced it by COCKING THE SA TRIGGER in the guy's ear.

It's like racking the slide on a shotgun. It's the last thing you do before taking that well-aimed shot. Maybe you won't even have to pull the trigger.
Not meaning to sound rude but since there's no smiley icons at the end of the above post... have to assume you're serious.
These are the kind of post that just leave ya scratching your head.

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I carry a 442 and love the gun. I wish I would have got one with a stainless cylinder because it developed alittle rust from my sweat when I pocket carried it.
1goodshot

Are you using a pocket holster?

Using a pocket holster will help to shield your pistol from sweat. Just one of the many,many advantages of using a pocket holster when pocket carrying.

Last edited by shortwave; September 2, 2012 at 02:36 AM.
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Old September 2, 2012, 08:09 AM   #53
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Hammerless for pocket carry, either gun in a holster. It ain't rocket science.
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Old September 2, 2012, 11:13 AM   #54
Shadi Khalil
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Originally Posted by dahermit View Post
Also, a D.A. only gun would suggest that you were carrying with a mind-set of self-protection only, not some cowboy looking to be a vigilante inasmuch as a snub-D.A.-only is more likely to be interpreted by a jury as defensive compared to spur-cocking for an execution shot. As a State cop told us in our CCW class, "...have no doubt, if you pull your gun and shoot your life will not ever be the same...there will be unlawful death suits that will follow, no matter how justified you were in shooting." Note: Bernard Getts was sued and lost, will pay the rest of his life despite the fact that the three perps had sharpened screw drivers and all had extensive rap sheets. Concealed carriers had better stack the deck as much in their favor as possible.
Sorry but I think this argument is a bit extreme. Getz was unlawfully carrying at the time when he shot four unarmed attackers. I'm surprised all he got was the weapons charge considering the state he lived in. I don't think it would had mattered what he was carrying when it came to the civil suit.

I agree, the 642 type revolvers are the best choice of a carry revolver but because of snagging or legal concerns. In the time I've carried a spurred revolver I've never once had a problem with the spur snagging. I don't imagine that would change in a self defense situation.

Considering the number of documented self defense shootings in the country, someone should be able to present a case where the spur caused a problem for the defense.

* disclaimer - I don't think that Getz should have been charged with the attempted murder nor do I believe the civil verdict was just.
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Old September 2, 2012, 12:32 PM   #55
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Sorry but I think this argument is a bit extreme. Getz was unlawfully carrying at the time when he shot four unarmed attackers. I'm surprised all he got was the weapons charge considering the state he lived in. I don't think it would had mattered what he was carrying when it came to the civil suit.
The Getz incident is not the best example, but it is the only one I could think of. What I had in mind was some of the posts that keep insisting there is some advantage to having a spur on the hammer, "...in case they need to take a longer shot...".

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I agree, the 642 type revolvers are the best choice of a carry revolver but because of snagging or legal concerns. In the time I've carried a spurred revolver I've never once had a problem with the spur snagging. I don't imagine that would change in a self defense situation.
It is only one of the arguments against a hammer spur. Another one is that a spurless gun discourages the practice of using single-action cocking that results in never learning to use the double-action feature effectively.

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Considering the number of documented self defense shootings in the country, someone should be able to present a case where the spur caused a problem for the defense.
Or, no one bothers with that detail. News reporters are looking for the most sensation to sell papers, not interested in mundane details. If it happened, I would imagine the News report would go somewhat like this: "Despite the fact that Mr. Jones was carrying a concealed handgun, he was robbed and severely beaten, proving that carrying a gun does not protect you from crime and violence."

Quote:
* disclaimer - I don't think that Getz should have been charged with the attempted murder nor do I believe the civil verdict was just.
Me neither. The guy had reached the end of his rope. He had been victimized before, begs the question of the NYC fathers, "...What the hell did you expect him to do, just continue to be a victim?" He ended up moving to Florida.
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Last edited by dahermit; September 2, 2012 at 12:41 PM.
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Old September 2, 2012, 03:55 PM   #56
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People are needlessly agonizing over hammer versus hammerless.

Has it not occurred to anyone to put the thumb over the hammer while drawing? Move it to the correct position as soon as it is out of the pocket.
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Old September 2, 2012, 04:31 PM   #57
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Has it not occurred to anyone to put the thumb over the hammer while drawing? Move it to the correct position as soon as it is out of the pocket.
Has it not occurred to you that there are posts that address that point? i.e., if you were punched in the face, kicked while on the ground, do you think that you would have the wherewithall to remember with the adrenalin rush, the racing heart, to calmly put your thumb over the hammer spur? Are you sure you would remember that you even had thumbs under the effects of a potentially fatal attack? Remember, we are not talking about deer hunting but a life and death situation...or you would not be drawing in the first place.
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Old September 2, 2012, 04:35 PM   #58
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People are needlessly agonizing over hammer versus hammerless.
Is not that what a forum is for, giving arguments that support and counter other's arguments? forum: a medium (as a newspaper or online service) of open discussion or expression of ideas
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Old September 2, 2012, 04:38 PM   #59
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Has it not occurred to anyone to put the thumb over the hammer while drawing?
Start reading at post #38
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Old September 2, 2012, 08:10 PM   #60
dahermit
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Start reading at post #38
Also, read post #39 while you are at it. And post #57 and you will see what is wrong with that.

By this time, your post should have countered my point that in some instances putting your thumb over the hammer will be the furthest thing from your mind. Remember, you have been punched in the head, ribs kicked in...do you think that you are going to say to yourself, "...remember to put thumb over hammer to keep spur from snagging...good thing I didn't bob the hammer...I feel the need for thumb-cocking may present itself..."?
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Sometimes you get what you pay for, sometimes you only pay more for what you get.
Three shots are not a "group"...they are a "few".

If the Bible is the literal, infallible, unerring word of God...where are all those witches I am supposed to kill?

Last edited by dahermit; September 2, 2012 at 08:22 PM.
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Old September 2, 2012, 09:10 PM   #61
Shadi Khalil
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Dahermit,

It's seems like we agree on most everything being discussed here. I think your point about draw from the pocket while in a compromising situation has less to do with the spur and more to do with the method of carry.

Cramming your hand into your pocket to retrieve anything while taking a beating is going to be tough. IMO, pocket carry is wrought with limitations; it's one of the sacrifices you make for the comfort and convenience of carrying a small and lite gun.

FWIW, when draw my revolver (as mentioned before a 637, spurred j-frame) my finger rides along the side of the holster and then connects with the frame once it's cleared leather and come out of the pocket. My thumb rides on the other side and begins to establish my grip in the pocket. I never put my thumb over the spur as I feel the protruding thumb is more likely to cause problems. Before the 637 I carried either concealed hammer or bodyguard style and I found the same drawing method works just as well with the 637. When reholstering I always place my thumb over the back of the hammer.

I practice drawing every single night, I spend some time on the belt holster but mainly focus on the pocket draw. In the thousands of times I've yanked the revolver from my pocket I've never had a problem. If I ever do, I'll certainly change things around.
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Old September 2, 2012, 09:23 PM   #62
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Too, I may not get the chance to pull my revolver totally out of my pocket. Just time to get grip on gun, angle and pull the trigger. Don't want to take any chances of the hammer being pressed against something or getting caught causing me not to be able to fire.

Just stands to reason, the least snaggable(is that a word ), external moving parts on a pocket carry pistol, the better.

If this thread does nothing else, I hope it gets people who pocket carry their ccw to practice drawing their pistol at frantic speed.
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Old September 2, 2012, 11:16 PM   #63
Shadi Khalil
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Originally Posted by shortwave View Post
Too, I may not get the chance to pull my revolver totally out of my pocket. Just time to get grip on gun, angle and pull the trigger. Don't want to take any chances of the hammer being pressed against something or getting caught causing me not to be able to fire.

Just stands to reason, the least snaggable(is that a word ), external moving parts on a pocket carry pistol, the better.


If this thread does nothing else, I hope it gets people who pocket carry their ccw to practice drawing their pistol at frantic speed.


That and as Dahermit pointed out, drawing from positions you might find yourself in if you were attacked.

The ability to fire from the pocket is an important plus for the hammer less models that has not been brought up yet
.
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Old September 3, 2012, 07:21 AM   #64
rebs
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I see some good points for both hammer spur and no hammer spur. I believe everyone has to make their own call on this as to what you are comfortable with and proficient with. I see it as a no win argument, it all comes down to personal preference.
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Old September 3, 2012, 09:12 AM   #65
dahermit
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I see some good points for both hammer spur and no hammer spur. I believe everyone has to make their own call on this as to what you are comfortable with and proficient with. I see it as a no win argument, it all comes down to personal preference.
I think that I have covered the points for not having a hammer spur, but I still have not seen any good point for having one on a pocket-carry double-action revolver. Except that is, for a nebulous (and unexplained) reference to the ability to cock it for a very precise single-action shot. The closest anyone has come, is to focus the argument on a method of drawing that keeps the spur from snagging. Now, just what are those good points of having a spur again?
1. Somewhere to put your thumb when drawing?
2. The false assurance that you may want to thumb-cock for some inexplicit reason?
3. Unaltered hammer spur gun will bring a higher price than one with a bobbed hammer?
4. It is how I do it and I cannot be wrong?
5. It spoils the looks?
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Sometimes you get what you pay for, sometimes you only pay more for what you get.
Three shots are not a "group"...they are a "few".

If the Bible is the literal, infallible, unerring word of God...where are all those witches I am supposed to kill?
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Old September 3, 2012, 09:22 AM   #66
dahermit
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The ability to fire from the pocket is an important plus for the hammer less models that has not been brought up yet
This assumes jacket-pocket carry. I carry in my right-front pants pocket. Inasmuch as I have had a suede sand bag ripped open by the muzzle blast of one of my revolvers, and the close proximity of my genitalia, I do not think I am ready for the experience of shooting through the pocket yet.
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Sometimes you get what you pay for, sometimes you only pay more for what you get.
Three shots are not a "group"...they are a "few".

If the Bible is the literal, infallible, unerring word of God...where are all those witches I am supposed to kill?
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Old September 3, 2012, 09:45 AM   #67
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I recently got a m-36 and will be getting a serate hammer to bob off. The original will remain available to be re-installed if so desired. Can't hurt resale value either.
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Old September 3, 2012, 10:48 AM   #68
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“I'm looking to get a .38 Special. Not sure whether to get exposed hammer, shrouded hammer, or DAO. It's mainly going to be a pocket gun. … Any thoughts, recommendations? Also any holster, ammo ideas? ” [Bel5191]

Pocket carry is risky. Slow draw. OWB or IWB holster carry is better. Even ankle carry is better, especially as the hermit has pointed out, you are down and being kicked to pulp. Galco, Don Hume, etc all make good leather holsters.

DAO or DA/SA?

Depends. Gent brought a brand new Ruger (with laser grip) to the range. At 7yds (21 ft) he shoots 8 rounds, all in the black bulls-eye. Reloads, turns on the laser, shoots 8 more, all in the bulls-eye, no difference. Says, “that’s enuf of that,” puts the little revolver away, and proceeds to shoot his service pistol, a 40 cal. Says he got the Ruger as a BUG, btw, the Ruger is 22 cal, but if you can shoot it accurately I do not criticize. This gent was good enuf to take the DAO close range rescue shot.

If you want to take that rare (aimed) rescue shot and can’t shoot well enuf DAO, then go for the S&W 438, 638 or 649, they are shrouded frame wherein the hammer rides the humpback, DA/SA. (see Rapidray post #44). Best of both worlds.

Good luck.
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Old September 3, 2012, 12:50 PM   #69
Shadi Khalil
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Originally Posted by dahermit View Post
This assumes jacket-pocket carry. I carry in my right-front pants pocket. Inasmuch as I have had a suede sand bag ripped open by the muzzle blast of one of my revolvers, and the close proximity of my genitalia, I do not think I am ready for the experience of shooting through the pocket yet.
Yes, the coat pocket. Glad you still have everything attached
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Old September 3, 2012, 03:24 PM   #70
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Yes, not advisable to shoot from pants pocket.

I did witness two street thugs that got into it. One was carrying in his right rear pocket. He went to pull his pistol(small semi-auto) and forgot to keep his 'bugger hook' off the trigger till he cleared his pocket. Shot himself through the butt checks. Flopped around in my front yard till the ambulance arrived.
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Old September 4, 2012, 01:25 PM   #71
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Dang! I would have paid money to see that!
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Old September 4, 2012, 01:30 PM   #72
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Dang! I would have paid money to see that!
At that particular place, there was literally something going on every night.

You didn't have to turn your TV on for entertainment that's for sure.
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Old September 4, 2012, 01:39 PM   #73
Shadi Khalil
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Originally Posted by shortwave View Post
At that particular place, there was literally something going on every night.

You didn't have to turn your TV on for entertainment that's for sure.
Sound like my "hood". Never a dull moment in the Metro Area.
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Old September 4, 2012, 02:23 PM   #74
dahermit
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Pocket carry is risky. Slow draw.
Admittedly. However, for some of us it is the best option available. It is a lot like how cowboys had to choose between tying "hard and fast" (to the saddle horn), or dallying (two or three quick wraps around the horn), the rope after the steer was roped. Hard and Fast could lead to the girth breaking and subjecting the cowboy to a "Texas Sleigh Ride", or with losing a finger or two when dallying. Two ways to do something... both wrong. You just have to pick the one the is "less wrong", for your particular circumstances.
I always wear shorts in the Summer; no ankle carry. I would likely pass-out if I bent over quickly to go for a gun in an ankle holster.
I have to use suspenders, so no belt for waist-band carry. And my Summer shirts would not hide a gun anyway. That leaves me with a pocket carry by default. However, when seeing any situation that could be a threat, I put both hands into my pockets, right hand on gun ready to pull. With both hands in my pockets, no one suspects that I have one hand on my gun...which speeds-up draws significantly.
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Three shots are not a "group"...they are a "few".

If the Bible is the literal, infallible, unerring word of God...where are all those witches I am supposed to kill?
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Old September 4, 2012, 03:02 PM   #75
Grant D
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Ok...so now I have to buy a S&W Model 638 for pocket carry, instead of my Model 37.
I'll just tell the wife, dahermit made me do it for my own safety! lol
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