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Old August 28, 2012, 08:34 PM   #51
Wagonman
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You mean like the Illinois Nazis back in 1977?


I hate Illinois Nazis

We had at least six guns in camp at OccupyTucson that I know of (and Tucson PD knew of at least two, mine included) and gee, in stark contrast to Oakland California, NYC and the like we had zero instances of police violence.

What police violence are you referring to?

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Old August 28, 2012, 09:14 PM   #52
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There is a difference between Rosa Park and what this guy did in Medford OR (grant, I did not like the way he did it, but it was legal. Even if the weapon had been full auto MP5 (with tax stamp), it would have still been legal in OR.

What Rosa Parks did was actually illegal by the laws of that day, and in that place. That law was overturned in the courts, and it needed to be overturned.

What this guy was doing was teasing for a confrontation, as good as the officer was at his job, he was wrong in initiating the contact in the first place. He should never have accommodated these guys.

Did these guys help the OC movement? No. They were defiantly butt heads. but could they legally do what they did? Yes, so I really do not thing of it as anything worse than any other stupid thing some young people do. I have OC'd since 1970 and have never had a confrontation, or even been asked for my CPL or ID. Going out of your way to get that kind of attention is juvenile.

The reason there is OC is well represented in "in re Brickley". Well worth the short read. When I was much younger (1950's) I was introduced to that attitude, it stuck...I OC unless it is cold enough for a heavy coat. Never had a problem, even in banks, whether in 1970, or now.

I think a lot of people look at things like this through their local laws...don't do it. Find out what the law is where it happened. Then think about it.
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Old August 28, 2012, 09:47 PM   #53
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The public doesn't want to see your weapon any more than they want to see your gun. They may ignore either but that doesn't mean they want to see them.

OC is no more going to "desensitize" them than listening to the yapping dog next door is going to "desensitize" me to its barking. What the yapping has done is, in fact, to make me hate the thing more. As a result, I call the police now every time it wakes me up, which I never used to do. Clearly, the public and politicians in CA reacted in a similar vein.
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Old August 28, 2012, 10:38 PM   #54
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In my opinion open carrying as a way of advocating your second amendment rights is the same as carrying around a bullhorn to advocate your first amendment rights. It's mostly obnoxious and does very little real good for the cause.

Open carrying a MP5 clone, a .22 no less, that offers very little in the way of tactical advantage or self defense is obviously just a stunt for attention. That is not a legitimate reason to carry a weapon. Sure, you have the right to, but as in my example, it's obnoxious. When people pull stunts like this, it isn't bringing (positive) attention to the cause, it's bringing attention to themselves. That's the last thing we need.
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Old August 28, 2012, 11:23 PM   #55
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Quote:
SAID BY Itc444:
It is not the question of OC vs CC. The question is how you carry.

If you are acting like the Cock of the Walk, constantly touching or otherwise calling attention to the piece, you probably should not carry.

However, is you carry discreetly in a natural manner then you will not encounter a problem

Well said ! ! ! ! ! ! I carry OC, for a couple reasons. 1. It is my right (and I dont flaunt it/draw additional attention to myself). 2. I haven't purchased a IWB holster for my full size 1911 (Taurus). 3. I have no other smaller handgun to carry (accepting donations )

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Old August 29, 2012, 07:25 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Pincus
1.The Rosa Parks comparison is a Non-Starter. These so called "activists" are doing something legal is a jack-ass-ist way just to get attention. If Rosa Parks had sat in the back of the bus and started Hooting and Hollering about how she was doing it, she just have gotten kicked off the bus for being a whacko. When the "activists" start OCing in Times Square or on the Capitol Mall, they can start referencing Rosa Parks.
I don't think that carrying a firearm is fairly equated to "Hooting and Hollering". Denigrating the practice of a right isn't consistent with a defense of the right.

Parks pushed for recognition of rights arguably already enshrined in the COTUS. Ohio open carriers pushed for recognition of a right already present in Ohio code. Whether one is arrested in Canton or Times Square isn't material to whether one is arrested for a behavior.

Tension and confrontation can result in a change in police behavior for the better (assuming one is correct). The Parks and Ohio episodes illustrate that.

As to OCers with abrasive personalities, let's note that you don't have to want the advocate over for dinner with the family in order to recognise the legitimacy of his activity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadHunter
OC is no more going to "desensitize" them than listening to the yapping dog next door is going to "desensitize" me to its barking.
How many people call 911 to complain about a PO open carrying? I would expect very few. It is customary.
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Old August 29, 2012, 08:58 AM   #57
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To preface: I am all for open carry and feel it should be a legal right in all parts of the country, mostly because it eliminates the whole printing issue while CCing. However I am also of the opinion that just because you have a right to do something, doesn't make it the right thing to do. If you're out in the woods or the country or just a relatively empty city street, by all means OC. But if you're going into a downtown bank at rush hour, cover up. Just slip your shirt over it. It's not "forfeiting you rights" or "giving in to the antis" it's a simple common courtesy. Otherwise don't be surprised when people treat you like you're an a-hole.

With that out of the way, here's the issue I have with many OC "activists". They claim that they do what they do to "normalize" the idea of people owning firearms and carrying them. However that's exactly where their ideals and their actions don't quite work together.
You don't normalize the carrying of a firearm by doing it in a way you normally wouldn't (like slinging an MP5 over your shoulder and walking through town with it for no reason while filming every conversation you get into). Just like you don't normalize the idea of same-sex marriage by dressing in a rainbow leotard and organizing a makeout orgy infront of your local church.
Things are not normalized by taking them and dragging them out to a stupid extreme.
If people want to normalize open carry then just take the pistol you normally conceal and wear it on the outside of your clothes. Done.
"But that's not activism because noone will even notice my bland little Glock!! What's the point?"
Well there you go, mission accomplished. Noone notices it because it's already normal where you live. So leave the issue alone and stop posturing like a pompous ass.
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Old August 29, 2012, 02:15 PM   #58
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Now. I can tell you for a FACT that California's anti-gunners soon after that first tried to pass an open-carry ban in 2004-2005 timeframe when I was still a California lobbyist for CCRKBA - and BEFORE there were any open-unload-carry protests in California
I'm a bit confused here by this.
I recall open carry was banned by the Mulford Act in 1967.
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Old August 29, 2012, 02:20 PM   #59
sigcurious
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It was not fully banned, until recently you could still open carry while unloaded.
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Old August 29, 2012, 03:00 PM   #60
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It was not fully banned, until recently you could still open carry while unloaded.
That was so they (California) could legally say that they were not stomping all over Californian's 2A rights- they could still bear arms, just not loaded ones. Now they don't have a legal leg to stand on.

So, which is better in the long run? A right you have in name only, but are afraid to excercise? .......or a right that is very obviously being stomped on, ripe for yet another 2A court victory?

All we need is a deep pocket Californian to bring suit.
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Old August 29, 2012, 03:17 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbob86
That was so they (California) could legally say that they were not stomping all over Californian's 2A rights- they could still bear arms, just not loaded ones. ....
Actually, it wasn't. No one really thought about carrying unloaded guns as "bearing arms" until fairly recently. It mostly had to do with everyday types of management of guns. like carrying guns you just brought home from the range or hunting from your car into your house.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbob86
..All we need is a deep pocket Californian to bring suit.
Well, in case you haven't been keeping up on current events, there are quite a number of lawsuits going on right now. See this thread.
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Old August 30, 2012, 09:07 AM   #62
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Those of you who seem to think there is some equality between Civie OC and LE OC are playing right into the ego wannabe role. When your job is to turn on the flashy lights and head towards the bang-bang sounds you are in a different category.

And, as often happens in this discussion, many of you have strayed from the issue of the confrontational OCers to the issue of the greater right of OC. I'm all for the latter, the former need to grow up and stop making us look bad. The right to OC can be exercised without making a scene, looking for attention or antagonizing LE and the rest of the populace. It is not an "all or nothing" situation.

-RJP
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Old August 30, 2012, 09:47 AM   #63
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I have CC'd for years now and OC'd before that. I have no problem with people doing so with respect and reguard to others. I personally think OC is just as much a right as CC. They are both part of the RKBA. What we need is to realize that there are people who do stupid stuff. There always have and always will, no matter what it involves. It sickens me to see people abuse the right to OC. Truth be told, it is going to happen and it is up to the rest of the firearm owners to educate people of the benefits of OC, CC or even the RKBA. There will always be a few bad apples, we must stop them from spoiling the bunch. Just as there will always be people who dislike firearms( they have that right), there will be firearm owners who abuse it.
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Old August 30, 2012, 09:55 AM   #64
zukiphile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Pincus
Those of you who seem to think there is some equality between Civie OC and LE OC are playing right into the ego wannabe role.
I do not carry openly, and have only rarely carried concealed. I noted that OC does desensitise people to it as demonstrated by OC by POs, about whom people complain for OC rarely, if ever.

What ego wannabe role would that be?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Pincus
When your job is to turn on the flashy lights and head towards the bang-bang sounds you are in a different category.
Indeed, that puts you into a category of people even more responsible for observing peoples' rights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Pincus
And, as often happens in this discussion, many of you have strayed from the issue of the confrontational OCers to the issue of the greater right of OC. I'm all for the latter, the former need to grow up and stop making us look bad.
I do not agree with the sentiment that POs should not respond to complaints; taking a look to see if there is really something to complain about is part of the work.

No one can create a confrontation single handedly by virtue of legal OC unless a PO makes it one. It takes two to make a confrontation. That's the lesson of the video of the well handled stop.
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Old August 30, 2012, 10:23 AM   #65
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^ I like what he said.

Long story short, if the cops didn't violate people rights in the first place we wouldn't be having this conversation. In essence, the OP is blaming the victim. Kind of like saying "she was dressed to sexy so it's not the rapists fault".
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Old August 30, 2012, 10:46 AM   #66
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No one can create a confrontation single handedly by virtue of legal OC unless a PO makes it one. It takes two to make a confrontation. That's the lesson of the video of the well handled stop.
+1.

At one time in this country, kids took guns to school to shoot on school rifle teams. Now our HS trap team can't even have a shotgun logo in the school yearbook, because the other side of this issue has convinced the general public that "GUNS ARE BAD!!!!!!!!!!111111!" So we should just play into that and not OC? It's legal, do it if that's what you want to do.

Having video evidence works to protect everybody involved: There are officers like Daniel Harless out there, and if not for video evidence, he'd still be out there. I'm pretty sure that officers that have gotten into trouble for harassing people doing nothing illegal serve as a reminder that the police are not "The Law"- they just are paid full time to enforce it.

As for the "You are not the Police!" argument: This is where we have gone wrong, IMO.

I give you Sir Robert Peel:

"The Police are the Public, and the Public are the Police."

Go look up the Peelian Principles. You will note that they are not adhered to much these days.... thus we have Officers speaking of Citizens as "civilians" .... as if what? That they are Military? They often dress like it, with combat boots and military hardware, up to and including armored vehichles, in some cases....... down this road lies an "Us vs. Them" bunker mentality...... this has never worked, as it turns the people against the police, and they can not succeed in police work without the support of the people. Sir Robert Peel stated this over 150 years ago..... Lawdog wrote on it a few years back..... go read.

http://thelawdogfiles.blogspot.com/2...re-police.html
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Old August 30, 2012, 10:49 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJgunowner
...In essence, the OP is blaming the victim. Kind of like saying "she was dressed to sexy so it's not the rapists fault".
Not the same thing at all. The rape victim isn't looking to get raped.

But if someone is seeking a confrontation and consciously acts in a way to provoke one, he really can't complain when he gets one.
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Old August 30, 2012, 10:56 AM   #68
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But if someone is seeking a confrontation and consciously acts in a way to provoke one, he really can't complain when he gets one.
Likewise, if some Daniel Harless wannabe harasses or assaults someone enaged in perfectly legal activity, he can't really complain when he gets into trouble, either.

I know of at least one one gun owner that was put on the ground and cuffed in Omaha because he was legally CCWing....... if he had video of that, maybe such things would not be so commonplace there.
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Old August 30, 2012, 11:04 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
But if someone is seeking a confrontation and consciously acts in a way to provoke one, he really can't complain when he gets one.
By that standard, did Rosa Parks have anything to complain about?

I would say that we are using a word, confrontation, that might cover a lot of very different sorts of encounters.

If a PO gets a complaint about someone armed, prudence requires that he take a look. Diplomacy might have him ask some questions, and let him know that he was responding to a complaint. I wouldn't consider that a confrontation.

Where a PO detains or arrests someone for nothing more than a failure to waive rights or a crumby attitude, it's fair to label that a confrontation.
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Old August 30, 2012, 11:07 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by zukiphile
By that standard, did Rosa Parks have anything to complain about?
She probably expected to get arrested. See post 31. That is how effective civil disobedience is done.
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Old August 30, 2012, 11:17 AM   #71
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It's not the act itself,,,

It's not the act itself,,,
But how the act is performed.

One officer in our local PD has already stated,,,
He will stop each and every person he sees carrying a handgun openly.

He has stated that he is strongly against the new open carry law,,,
And he will stop everyone he sees and ask them to show their carry permit.

When asked if he will stop the same person multiple times,,,
His answer was How am I supposed to remember everyone I come into contact with.

A well planned strategy would be to frequent his patrol area,,,
Cooperate fully and give no reason for the officer to escalate his actions,,,
But have your little voice recorder running and record each and every word of the interaction.

I would think that after a third stop (maybe even a second),,,
One would have reasonable cause to register a formal complaint.

My point here is that sometimes the authorities in power need to be confronted,,,
Just do it with a good plan and don't be stupid in it's implementation.

If you are going to bait a cop to uncover illegal/harassing activity,,,
You should have a well thought out strategy.

Aarond

P.S. Rather than bait the officer I wrote a letter to the Chief of Police,,,
In it I asked him what the policies for his department will be,,,
I gave my name, address, and E-mail address,,,
I sent the letter by registered mail,,,
I have received no reply as yet.

.
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Old August 30, 2012, 11:20 AM   #72
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It's either a right or it's not.
Until tested it's just a theory.

OC is simply that testing and negative reactions are the seeds of prohibition being planted by the ignorant or openly anti RKBA.

If the trained police depts can't deal with open carry then what chance does our 2nd amendment have with the uninformed.

These are necessary, albeit painful steps toward a return to full recognition of our right.

I find defending my rights based on public comfort distasteful at best.
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Old August 30, 2012, 11:30 AM   #73
Frank Ettin
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Originally Posted by Microgunner
...I find defending my rights based on public comfort distasteful at best.
It's not a matter of that. It's a matter of choosing the most effective ways to further the RKBA. It's about picking one's fights and fighting smart.
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Old August 30, 2012, 11:43 AM   #74
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Frank, I fail to se how this is "Civil Disobedience".

It would be Civil Disobedience if someone were to OC where it was against the law, intentionally breaking the law, to get arrested and videotape the arrest.

What we are talking about here is being detained or worse for doing something that is not illegal. Rob and seveal of the other posters are condemning OC activists for "baiting" cops by OCing.

If a cop goes to investigate, and everybody goes their merry way, no harm, no foul. It gets videotaped and the cop looks good on camera.

If on the other hand, the Officer goes all Harless on the activists, and it gets videotaped, and the world finds out what a bad apple he is, well then, how is that a bad thing?

From an activist's point of view, toting around something that looks like a machine pistol is probably a bad plan ...... but just OCing a handgun? It's legal.

Those of us who believe the police are TheOnlyOnes need to rethink that, or find a country without a Bill of Rights that says that "the Right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. I hear England is nice .... you just have to jump through a few hoops to have a firearm.....
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Old August 30, 2012, 11:52 AM   #75
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It's about picking one's fights and fighting smart.
Some folks here seem to be advocating running away from one.

"Don't OC because the public is not used to that and will call the police, and you (and us, by association) will look bad."

How do you suppose the public will get used to OC?

The other side has engaged in activism on a massive scale for 50+ years ..... as a result, their message is now the default position for the uninformed.
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