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Old September 1, 2012, 01:54 AM   #76
Lost Sheep
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Aside. Moderators, if this is offensive, I will remove immediately amd apologize.

JCWit

I would like to talk to you about your conversation with CrustyFN. (post 61, 70 and 71)

Crusty appears to me to have taken exception to one of your sentences.

"If those of you have not been able to adjust your dies to accept rounds reloaded by you and you feel the need of an additional step to accomodate your handguns, HEY, GO FOR IT."

It may be hypersensitive to take your phrasing as a subtle insult, but I see it as very easy to infer that you are saying that anyone who "GOES FOR IT" is a loader who "has not been able to adjust" their dies.

Telling someone they do not know how to adjust their dies may be insulting or may be kind. Pretending you don't know that either interpretaion is likely is naive at best.

If you truly did not realize how insulting your post could be, I apologize for misinterpreting your intent and hope you will forgive me for addressing this in the forum rather than in a P.M. But I don't think you are so obtuse.

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Old September 1, 2012, 08:21 AM   #77
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Lost Sheep, check your PM's
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Old September 1, 2012, 09:34 AM   #78
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Take it however you wish. If it offends you, fine, you have 2 choices, to stay offended or get over it, neither makes me any difference.
No it doesn't offend me. It just boggles my mind how you keep saying you see other uses for the FCD but if people would adjust their dies right they wouldn't need it. Well if there are other uses for it then wouldn't they need it for that other use even though their die are adjusted right? Just like a powder cop die, if you look in every case before you set the bullet on then you don't need it either. In fact I saw a thred last week from a guy that had a lock out die malfunction and he was getting cases with no powder and the lock out die didn't catch them. Yes it was set up right.

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BTW, Who's talking down to who? Better check the mirror.
Sorry if I offended you with that. I don't see where I'm telling you I know how to do something right and you don't. I'm really not trying to make an enemy out of you. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
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Old September 1, 2012, 09:43 AM   #79
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I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
Sounds like a plan to me!
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Old September 1, 2012, 11:58 AM   #80
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It all depends on what you prefer. If you like the FCD it's worth it. If you don't it's not. We'll know the idea is catching on when Lyman, Hornady, and Redding start making separate crimping dies.
The reason they don't is they didn't think of it and lee did! Same goes for the many other things that lee has done that the others wish they had thought of. Like the collet neck sizing die, the auto disk powder measure, lee molds and melters, all less money that the other companies. It most likely is a patent matter, it most certainly IS a matter of they couldn't make it as cheaply, so we wouldn't buy it!

As for me, I use one sometimes. I use the barrel/chamber of the pistol I'm loading for as a case gauge. The "plunk" test involves dropping the shell into the chamber, hearing a solid plunk when it bottoms out, then tipping it 180 degrees to have it freely fall out on it's own weight. If you have to force it to completely chamber, something wrong.

I agree with JC, MOST dies can be adjusted so the FCD won't be needed. As long as you're NOT using oversize lead boolits. There's also the fact that some brass is simply thicker in the mouth area of straight walled cases. Use an oversized lead boolit in a thicker case, you'll have a sticky shell in the chamber. R_P cases are notorious for being thinner at the mouth. Most of the others are thicker.

If you don't separate and sort, you can have problems that setting dies has no effect on. Sort by headstamp, then set dies accordingly.

Since this thread started with a question about Hornady dies, I'll put my .02 in for that. I own several sets of Hornady dies. I've had trouble with all of them. That flaky sliding seating chamber is always falling out because they use a tiny spring clip to hold it in. Then there's their attempt to copy the lee sliding decapper/neck expander stem. It slips no matter how tight the collet that holds it is tightened. In their defense, I griped to them, they sent me their new and improved threaded stem, actually 2 of them for both of the rifle sets I had. Needless to say, I'll never buy Hornady dies again!
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Old September 1, 2012, 02:33 PM   #81
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Quote:
We'll know the idea is catching on when Lyman, Hornady, and Redding start making separate crimping dies.
The reason they don't is they didn't think of it and lee did! Same goes for the many other things that lee has done that the others wish they had thought of. Like the collet neck sizing die, the auto disk powder measure, lee molds and melters, all less money that the other companies. It most likely is a patent matter, it most certainly IS a matter of they couldn't make it as cheaply, so we wouldn't buy it!
I don't understand....
Are both of you completely unaware of the fact that some of those companies DO make separate crimp dies?
Redding "Profile Crimp" dies, in particular, are great. And, Redding has been making them for quite some time....


I must say... I've never seen a Profile Crimp user complain that they had bulged ammo they couldn't chamber, either. It supports the case, rather than sizing it, ruining neck tension, and reducing bullet diameter.



I really can't believe this thread made it past page 2.
I figured the Trauma team would have been prepping for organ donation by now.
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Old September 1, 2012, 03:01 PM   #82
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We'll know the idea is catching on when Lyman, Hornady, and Redding start making separate crimping dies.
Snuffy, Lyman, Hornady, and Redding all make dedicated crimping dies. I was being sarcastic. Sometimes I forget people read things and put whatever inflection they want on it. I think crimping in a separate step, IS catching on. It will be interesting to see what the accepted method is in ten years.
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Old September 1, 2012, 03:28 PM   #83
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I don't understand....
Are both of you completely unaware of the fact that some of those companies DO make separate crimp dies?
Redding "Profile Crimp" dies, in particular, are great. And, Redding has been making them for quite some time....
Quote:
Snuffy, Lyman, Hornady, and Redding all make dedicated crimping dies.
Yes they do, but they do NOT have a carbide post-sizing ring in them. If you want to be specific, then include ALL the features of a FCD.

I bought a 4 die 44 mag lee die set. It, of course, had a FCD. I made some jacketed ammo that I wanted a good heavy crimp on. The lee FCD taper crimp did not do a good heavy crimp. It's SUPPOSED to do a roll crimp. After reading about the Redding profile crimp die, I ordered one. WOW! It works superb! I'm really considering getting one for everything I load, handgun that is.
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Old September 1, 2012, 05:33 PM   #84
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Yes they do, but they do NOT have a carbide post-sizing ring in them. If you want to be specific, then include ALL the features of a FCD.
You did not say anything about the post-sizing ring in your original post. If you want to talk about carbide sizing rings, you must be specific. We can't read your mind.

The statement was about dedicated crimp dies. The information provided was correct in that regard.


Quote:
I bought a 4 die 44 mag lee die set. It, of course, had a FCD. I made some jacketed ammo that I wanted a good heavy crimp on. The lee FCD taper crimp did not do a good heavy crimp. It's SUPPOSED to do a roll crimp. After reading about the Redding profile crimp die, I ordered one. WOW! It works superb! I'm really considering getting one for everything I load, handgun that is.
So, one of those "features" of the FCD wasn't as advertised, and you had to go to an 'inferior' die without the oh-so-important post-sizing ring.
I thought you were arguing that the FCD is the greatest thing since sliced bread, from the greatest reloading tool manufacturer in the world?
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Old September 1, 2012, 06:01 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snuffy
I bought a 4 die 44 mag lee die set. It, of course, had a FCD. I made some jacketed ammo that I wanted a good heavy crimp on. The lee FCD taper crimp did not do a good heavy crimp. It's SUPPOSED to do a roll crimp. After reading about the Redding profile crimp die, I ordered one. WOW! It works superb! I'm really considering getting one for everything I load, handgun that is.
Are you certain the Lee FCD is machined to do a TAPER crimp?

If so, I would call Lee and insist they send you the correct FCD. For a rimmed straight-walled case it is supposed to be a ROLL crimp die (as you said) and Lee Precision knows that.

I am sure they would make it right.

A cheaper alternative to any maker's dedicated crimp die is to simply acquire an extra seat/crimp die and pull the seating stem out. (Sometimes you can acquire a tool steel die set for next to nothing and just leave the sizing and belling dies in the box.)

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Old September 1, 2012, 06:09 PM   #86
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The lee FCD taper crimp did not do a good heavy crimp. It's SUPPOSED to do a roll crimp.
So...what you're saying is, the "taper crimp" die, didn't "do a roll crimp"? Say it ain't so. Maybe you should be "more specific".

Quote:
A cheaper alternative to any maker's dedicated crimp die is to simply acquire an extra seat/crimp die and pull the seating stem out. (Sometimes you can acquire a tool steel die set for next to nothing and just leave the sizing and belling dies in the box.)
I've suggested the same thing. The Lee seating die bodies can be bought separately from Lee. They aren't that expensive at all.
http://leeprecision.com/seat-die-body-44-mag.html

FWIW, I'm sorry I may have confused some of you by mentioning other companies making separate crimping dies and not pointing out the absence of a carbide sizing ring. I was referring to the process of using a dedicated crimping die, in a separate step, rather that the actual construction of the die.
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Last edited by jimkim; September 1, 2012 at 06:49 PM.
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Old September 1, 2012, 07:15 PM   #87
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FCD threads are truly amazing. They always end in an argument (or arguments), no one who already uses one ever stops using one, and vice versa, and newbies are forced to flip a coin to decide if the tool is worth adding to their collection.

I am glad when I flipped the coin it came up FCD
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Old September 1, 2012, 07:28 PM   #88
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I have two. One for 44-40 which I don't use and one for .45 ACP which I do. I've loaded for .45 ACP off and on for about 30 years and the 44-40 for about five. You'd think I'd have the .45 ACP figured out by now so I wouldn't need the FCD but I would for the thin walled 44-40. Guess I'm just weird.
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Old September 1, 2012, 09:01 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tkglazie
FCD threads are truly amazing. They always end in an argument (or arguments),
You've got that right. I am sure, though that there must be at least ONE thread that didn't get an argument started. Please? Let there be ONE!
Quote:
Originally Posted by tkglazie
no one who already uses one ever stops using one, and vice versa,
I have learned a few things and have modified my use of FCDs. I pay more attention now, particularly to lead bullet diameters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tkglazie
and newbies are forced to flip a coin to decide if the tool is worth adding to their collection.
I hope not. I put effort into these threads in the hope that true seekers of wisdom will see through the dross and discern the truth and use what applies to them wisely to become happier hunters (or target shooters or whatever).
Quote:
Originally Posted by tkglazie
I am glad when I flipped the coin it came up FCD
Good for you.

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Old September 1, 2012, 10:55 PM   #90
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ME:I am not sure what symptoms the fcd is supposed to "cure" I don't recall reading that anywhere in the literature. In fact modern reloading 2nd Ed by Richard lee states the fcd won't turn ammo made from Substandard parts or poorly assembled ammo into world record winning precision ammo just by running it through the die. It's a tool, and like other tools it can be used improperly causing detrimental results, I find it comical people want to blame the tool when they don't get the results they expected as a result of improper use.
You're summarizing statements made about the wrong tool.
Those statements are in reference to the rifle FCD. It's a totally different beast.
Quote:
YOU:The handgun (carbide) FCD is designed to be used as a post-sizer 'cure' for bulges caused by over-crimping, or as a die that offers "unlimited crimp" and then 'irons out' the bulges. Nowhere, does Lee talk about it affecting accuracy, either way. However... as other posters have mentioned, the sizing ring in the carbide FCD is sized smaller than a minimum 'standard' chamber.

Lee discusses the rifle FCD somewhere around page 57 in Modern Reloading (2nd Ed). I believe there are 3-5 pages dedicated to the die. But... there isn't much on the handgun (carbide) FCD, other than discussing how 'cheap' it is. The two paragraphs directly stating that it is a band-aid for sub-standard reloading practices are on page 78.


I'm not arguing in favor, or against either die. I just wanted to make sure you understood that even Lee states that the handgun FCD was designed as a 'cure' for poor reloading practices, and that you were confusing statements made about completely different tools.
I understand completely. Again, nowhere i have read in any of the lee literature the factory crimp die is a "cure" for anything. i don't see it, and i have the book.

it talks about what it will do, and the sizing ring and ironing out over crimps i say yes i read that. nowhere does it say it's a cure. i don't see that anywhere. i looked.

i see it as an insurance policy rather than a snake oil (which soooo many people seem to do) and if i do f**k up a round (and who among us has not) the fcd may keep you happy. MAY. i agree, if you need the fcd to fix your mistakes you're doing it wrong. if you are using it to put a nice crimp on you die that you like, you're doing it right.

yes it does what it says it does, if you use it right.

if you have used it and like it i say: keep on keepin' on.

if you have used it and hate it i say: keep on keepin' on.

if you don't have one i say, spend <$25 and try it for yourself.

if you like it i say keep on keepin on.

if you can't make it work for you i say:

DON'T USE IT and let that be the end of it. cuz it works for lots of us

Last edited by the led farmer; September 1, 2012 at 11:14 PM.
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Old September 1, 2012, 11:27 PM   #91
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I measured some Lee 45 dies with carbide rings with pin gauges for the highest go gauge.
I don't know what they were called when I bought them.
Dies exist with me as a junk yard of die parts to be used like tinker toys.
I can see I drilled out the internal threads on one in 2003, so I could push 45acp brass all the way through and size all the way down across the web, so the brass would fit in a .469" rifle chamber. And prior to that I ground off the bottom of one with a diamond wheel to get the small ID carbide at the top closer to the shell holder.

Left to Right:
1) "HO" marked 0.470"
2) "K1" marked 0.466"
3) "C9" marked 0.467"
4) "HO" marked 0.465"
5) "B1" marked 0.465"

4) and 5) were marked differently, but are the same.
1) and 4) were marked the same, but are very different
2) has a threaded carbide ring that can be removed. I don't think Lee makes this any more.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 5 Lee 45 dies with carbide rings 9-1-2012.jpg (112.6 KB, 11 views)
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Old September 2, 2012, 01:22 AM   #92
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Quote:
So, one of those "features" of the FCD wasn't as advertised, and you had to go to an 'inferior' die without the oh-so-important post-sizing ring.
I thought you were arguing that the FCD is the greatest thing since sliced bread, from the greatest reloading tool manufacturer in the world?
Very nice sarcasm Frank! Nope, I wasn't saying the carbide post sizing ring is always a good thing. I AM saying that I SOMETIMES use one, But I don't always. It's being used wrong IF you're using it to correct bad loading practices or defective dies.

Quote:
Quote:
The lee FCD taper crimp did not do a good heavy crimp. It's SUPPOSED to do a roll crimp.
So...what you're saying is, the "taper crimp" die, didn't "do a roll crimp"? Say it ain't so. Maybe you should be "more specific".
Okay. It may well have been supposed to be a roll crimp. It crimped a little, then attempting to crimp harder simply resulted in the crimp ring/shoulder sliding down the case mouth further. Looked like a step crimp. It was most certainly swaging the XTP HP's below the cannelure by forcing the case mouth into the bullet. I still have it somewhere, maybe I should return it to see if they make it good? The Redding profile works so good, it don't really need it.

I think this has run long enough. Sarcasm and personal attacks are all that is happening now.
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Old September 2, 2012, 02:38 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snuffy
Okay. It may well have been supposed to be a roll crimp. It crimped a little, then attempting to crimp harder simply resulted in the crimp ring/shoulder sliding down the case mouth further. Looked like a step crimp. It was most certainly swaging the XTP HP's below the cannelure by forcing the case mouth into the bullet. I still have it somewhere, maybe I should return it to see if they make it good? The Redding profile works so good, it don't really need it.

I think this has run long enough. Sarcasm and personal attacks are all that is happening now.
Truly I am sorry for the thread if sarcasm and attacks are all that is coming from the thread. But I don't believe it is true. The thread is still yielding education.

I learned from your last post that some of Lee's roll crimp dies are not what I hoped, not properly shaped. Next time I break out my revolver stuff I will have to do some examination of my dies and check out what happens when I do a deliberate overcrimp. If Lee dies have the wrong profile... well maybe I will have to speak to them (ok, a little sarcasm there, but not directed at you).

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Old September 2, 2012, 03:55 AM   #94
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Snuffy's crimp ring sounds like it's the wrong size. I have used my 45 acp FCD to knock the flare down on 44 magnum cases when loading shot cartridges. His post perfectly describes what it does.

Anytime you get a faulty product of any kind, from anybody. Call the manufacturer and see if they will make it good. Try not to have an attitude when you talk to them. Every one of them, except Lyman have sent me free replacement parts, even Lee. Lee went above and beyond several times by sending parts for long(over a decade) discontinued items I had bought used. The lady just happened to know where they had a few parts left over.

As I said before, you can always order a FCD from Midway, and try it out. If you are not satisfied, you can return it.
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Old September 2, 2012, 08:55 AM   #95
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What you have to respect is the number of reloaders who do post assembly crimping. If I encounter and procure another brand's crimp die, such as the profile die described above, I'll still use the crimp dies I have.
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Old September 2, 2012, 09:06 AM   #96
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What you have to respect is the number of reloaders who do post assembly crimping.
So just because a majority of reloaders use an item makes it the go to thing to do?

Does this hold true for highway speed limits and drivers?
Or most any other thing in life?

Based on that logic seems more than a little odd.
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Old September 2, 2012, 09:35 AM   #97
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What we can say for sure is that approximately 2/3 of reloaders who choose to post in this thread and about 2/3 of the reloaders who took the poll on Cast Bullits web site use the FCD in certain applications. So for most it make sense in certain applications. I don't understand why the minority cares what the majority does if the FCD works for the majority.
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Old September 2, 2012, 10:06 AM   #98
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I don't understand why the minority cares what the majority does if the FCD works for the majority.
Bunches of things in this world I don't understand either. Flying Bumblebees being one of them!
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Old September 2, 2012, 12:13 PM   #99
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Bunches of things in this world I don't understand either. Flying Bumblebees being one of them!
I'm just thankful spiders can't fly.
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Old September 2, 2012, 03:23 PM   #100
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I'm just thankful spiders can't fly.
Unfortunately, some of them can glide, though...
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