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Old September 3, 2012, 10:08 AM   #51
Nanuk
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Do you have a link about the average chest wall thickness? Are you talking the thickness of the chest wall itself or the associated exterior muscle & fat tissues on the outside? Not doubting, just looking for references.
A couple of MANY links, it seems EVERYONE has an opinion on this.

http://demog.berkeley.edu/~andrew/1918/figure2.html

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005140.html

My google fu is lacking ATM, I will suffice to say that I may have been give bad info and thus regurgitated said bad information.

There is no doubt that people are healthier than anytime in our past.

I do however stand by my assertion that there are better rounds for SD such as the 357 Magnum, 357 Sig, 10 mm, 40 S&W. The question is, can you handle them? How much better makes how much of a difference? The 45 ACP IS NOT THE HAMMER OF THOR. I like the 45 as much as the next guy, however, it is quite anemic by today's standards. Blindly worshiping at the alter of the 45 is an emotional response more appropriate of a teenaged girl.

Carry what you want, just ensure that you are basing you decision on fact not myth.
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Old September 3, 2012, 10:58 AM   #52
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I watch alot of the History Channel and such. I have seen alot of misinformation on their shows, like "Tales of the Gun". I'm not really sure where they get their info sometimes but I get a good laugh from them now and then.
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Old September 3, 2012, 12:46 PM   #53
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I like the 45 as much as the next guy, however, it is quite anemic by today's standards.
"Quite anemic" is as ridiculous a statement as the myths of super natural power the OP was referring to. Yes, the 10MM is more powerful, the 40 S&W is very similar in power, and has the advantage of holding another round or two in the same sized frame. But the 45 ACP "anemic" I hardly think so! Although ballistic gel tests may not duplicate exactly real life performance they are the best way we have to compare ballistic performance.

Quote:
A variety of different handgun calibers overlayed for results in ballistic gel.
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/...comparison.jpg
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Old September 3, 2012, 01:01 PM   #54
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This has nothing to do with the .45, but it does have to do with "knock down power".

When I was younger, my friend's dad had one of them "Not Meant For TV" movies. In once scene, it showed a riot in some country, not sure where. Anyways, one of the rioters refused to move for the cops, so one cop with a shotgun, not sure what gauge but I would guess 12ga, points the gun at the rioter's gut at point blank range and fires.

The rioter did not fly back, he does not fall backwards, and he did not even really move. He just stood there for a few seconds, looks at his now bloody belly, calls out in pain and falls to his knees. I assume he dies, but it does not show any more of the footage.

I have also shot many squirrels with a 12ga, and never did I see one fly backwards. Now, granted that I used birdshot and not buckshot, but you would assume the difference would be small when fired at a small animal like a squirrel.

My point is, I no longer believe in the knock down power aspect of guns. I am sure some rounds have more force behind them, but I do not buy into the whole "blank round" has more knock down power than "blank round".

With all that said, I would still pick the .45acp over a 9mm.
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Old September 3, 2012, 01:11 PM   #55
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My point is, I no longer believe in the knock down power aspect of guns. I am sure some rounds have more force behind them, but I do not buy into the whole "blank round" has more knock down power than "blank round".
You're right to discount "knockdown power". It's a simple physics problem - in the collision between a bullet and a person, total momentum must be conserved. No matter how fast a bullet is traveling, it simply doesn't have enough momentum to change the victim's velocity from zero to anything appreciably above zero.

Quick example:

200 grain bullet traveling at 1000 feet per second, and 200 pound person not moving.

Initial momentum of the bullet is 200,000 gn-ft/sec
Initial momentum of the person is zero.

Assuming the bullet comes to rest inside the person rather than passing through, the final weight of the bullet/body system is 1,400,200 grains. The final momentum of the body/bullet combo must still be 200,000 gn-ft/sec.

This gives a final velocity for the bullet/body combination of (200,000 gn-ft/sec divided by 1,400,200 grains), or about .14 feet per second (a little under two inches per second).

So as you suspected, the impact of the bullet is barely going to make the person's body move, much less throw him backward off his feet.

Last edited by ScottRiqui; September 3, 2012 at 03:03 PM.
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Old September 3, 2012, 03:02 PM   #56
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I'd say the impact of the bullet is going to do something.
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Old September 3, 2012, 03:23 PM   #57
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Bluetrain, it's a great round, but that's not the point. It's not a magic death ray, that's the point.
When we got in GSW's what was hit was far more important than what hit them. We had a lot who were hit with .25acp rounds who squeeked through barely alive. Peripheral hits just weren't normally a threat.
I'm perfectly willing to admit my lack of experience firing different types of pistol rounds but it seems to me if all I can do with a more powerful cartridge is spray and pray, not hitting what I'm aiming at, it's time to find a different weapon/caliber.
If I put holes in his heart and lungs with a .380 and you put holes in his shoulder/arm with a .45 what is the coroner going to say killed him?
IMHO the best pistol round for you is the most powerful one you can accurately shoot multiple rounds with. If it's the .45 for you more power to you, but it still is more important what you hit than what you hit it with.
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Old September 3, 2012, 04:50 PM   #58
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it still is more important what you hit than what you hit it with.
Agreed.

But what if both hit the same location? Wouldn't a bigger caliber cause more damage?
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Old September 3, 2012, 06:50 PM   #59
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You bet, Identical hits cause more damage with a bigger/more powerful round. Did that more powerful round slow down or make less accurate your follow up shot? One round is almost never enough. I can give you chapter and verse on the subject of how tough humans are. What about ammo capacity? We're all pretty well aware of what a low percentage of rounds fired in anger actually hit the target. Is one or two rounds less before a reload the line between your death and his? Shoot what you can consistently and repeatedly hit with. If it's a .45 great.
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Old September 4, 2012, 04:25 AM   #60
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I'm in violent agreement with Scrubcedar in that what you hit is more important than the size of the projectile.

You have to hit your target to be effective.
You also have to hit some crucial or vital structure to stop a threat.
Any bullet that can penetrate to the far side of the body can be quickly lethal.

Realism 101 - My perspective

I'm a good shot. But I'm old and rusty and no longer competing in matches. But I'm still a good shot but by no means an "expert" shot. While I can make COM shots on paper, I know my skills and accuracy will suffer when I have to try to shoot a real, moving target. And they'll suffer even more if that target is trying to kill me. I know all this.

Still, I want the threat to end as quickly as possible. Ideally with one bullet. My aim isn't going to be perfect. My form will probably look silly as I'm trying to not be killed and screaming like a girl. Since I won't be able to place the shot with precision, bigger bullets are better. Bigger bullets mean bigger holes. That means an increased chance of damaging something important. Say, his descending aorta. Or inferior vena cava. A big bullet doesn't need to expand, but if it does it's just that much better. Bigger holes mean faster blood loss. That means I may not have to shoot him twice. Or four times.

I'd much rather have the cops looking at my downed assailant who has one hole in him rather than two - or four, or even seven. If the assailant dies, I'd rather the doctors tell police it was fatal because of where he was hit rather than the number of times he was hit.

If you shoot your best with a .380 or 9mm, then using it will probably serve you better than trying to use something bigger that you shoot less accurately.
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Old September 4, 2012, 06:26 AM   #61
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"I'd say the impact of the bullet is going to do something."

It is going to do something.

It's going to disrupt and displace flesh over the path of the bullet's penetration.
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Old September 4, 2012, 06:32 AM   #62
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IMHO, the only problem with the .45ACP is its many (though not all) fans who believe that the .45ACP is the ONLY effective round......
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Old September 4, 2012, 10:53 AM   #63
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There is a difference between being lethal and stopping the threat. A shot with a 22 may kill someone in a week or so if they do not seek medical aid, but it may not stop them from harming you or yours.

I strongly agree that bullet placement trumps all. The bullet itself is really a small part of the equation, but we seemed obsessed with it. It is also the platform. The 45 is very dependent on a 5" barrel, as its low velocity only gets worse with shorter barrels.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/45auto.html

I have carried full size 1911's and the shorter 1911's with anywhere from 6-8 shots on board. I now carry a baby Glock with 14 shots of 357 Sig on board. I shoot it just as well as my 1911's, it carries quite a punch and lots of them.

http://www.underwoodammo.com/357sig1...ntboxof50.aspx

You are not going to stop an adversary with one shot. I say that with the utmost confidence because if you train that way, shoot once and assess you will in all likelihood lose the fight.

I have been ridiculed already because I do not worship the 45 ACP, darn.
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Old September 4, 2012, 11:03 AM   #64
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The 45 is very dependent on a 5" barrel, as its low velocity only gets worse with shorter barrels.
This is true of pretty much all pistol cartridges ..... I was disconcerted by the lower velocity of my EMP ......
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Old September 4, 2012, 11:23 AM   #65
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In other words, a .45 ACP works best when fired from a .45 automatic.

While perhaps you can't count on stopping someone with one shot, you also can't guarantee hitting your adversary with all shots fired, either. So both the absolute and relative effectiveness of the bulllet is important. There's more.

While some may believe the .45 ACP is anemic, the problem of more powerful cartridges, including all the magnums, the 10mm, the .40, and perhaps the .357 Sig, is both shootability and controlability, and that also applies to the .45 ACP fired from small and lightweight handguns. They can all be a handful to shoot, even more so the lighter the gun is, and the blast from some of them can be something else. That all translates to slower follow-up shots, unless you think that isn't important, although it remains true. Naturally, all that varies from individual to individual. Some will think a 45-ounce .44 magnum revolver is a nice all-round handgun, also suitable for concealed carry. But that person may expect to jump a bear or lion on the way to the outhouse. Others may have other concerns that weigh heavier.
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Old September 4, 2012, 11:33 AM   #66
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In other words, a .45 ACP works best when fired from a .45 automatic.
It works as designed when fired from a 5" 1911 ..... slightly better from longer barrelled carbines ..... but only slightly...... although 600+ round a minute out of the Thompson would be a plus....
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Old September 4, 2012, 09:17 PM   #67
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In other words, a .45 ACP works best when fired from a .45 automatic.
Doesn't do too badly in a Blackhawk Convertible or a Model 25, either....
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Old September 4, 2012, 09:31 PM   #68
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No argument that the 357 Sig is a powerful round, but saying the 45 ACP is anemic as compared to some of today's rounds is just plain not true. As shown in the following ballistic tables from the amunition manufacturer you posted a link to. Where muzzle energy isn't a be all, end all, this data shows they are very similar in the two rounds, In fact the "anemic" 45ACP has 8 foot pounds more energy

Quote:
Caliber: 357 Sig
Bullet Weight: 125 Grains
Bullet Style: Speer Bonded Jacketed Hollow Point
Case Type: Brass
Ballistics Information:

Muzzle Velocity: 1450 fps
Muzzle Energy: 584 ft. lbs.


Quote:
Technical Information

Caliber: 45 ACP
Bullet Weight: 185 Grains
Bullet Style: Speer Bonded Jacketed Hollow Point
Case Type: Brass

Ballistics Information:

Muzzle Velocity: 1200 fps
Muzzle Energy: 592 ft. lbs.
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Old September 4, 2012, 09:52 PM   #69
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More 45 myth. The 45 was from a 5" barrel. That same 357 load claims 1525 from a 4.5" barrel. That brings the muzzle energy up to 645 ft lbs from a barrel that is still .5" shorter than the one used for the 45. Also, that is not even the highest energy load that company offers in 357 Sig. That particular load claims 1612 fps from a 4.5" barrel resulting in 663 ft lbs. Again that is still from a barrel .5" shorter than the one used for the 45 numbers.
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Old September 4, 2012, 10:16 PM   #70
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If we look at more typical numbers for the two cartridges, for example Speer Gold Dot, the 45 still comes out behind on energy figures.

357 Sig from a 4" barrel

125 grains
1350 fps
506 ft lbs


45 Auto from a 5" barrel "(again, the 45 is given the advantage of a longer barrel)

230 grains
890 fps
404 ft lbs

185 grains
1050 fps
453 ft lbs

If we look at Speer's short barrel specific load from a 4" barrel, we get

230 grains
820 fps
343 ft lbs
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Old September 4, 2012, 10:21 PM   #71
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The strength of the 45 is not that it produces a lot of energy because it doesn't. The strength of the 45 is that it throws a large bullet that already starts at 45 caliber.
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Old September 4, 2012, 10:28 PM   #72
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The strength of the 45 is not that it produces a lot of energy because it doesn't. The strength of the 45 is that it throws a large bullet that already starts at 45 caliber.
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Which is important when using non expanding bullets. A 45 is also great if you NEED to suppress it.
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Old September 4, 2012, 10:38 PM   #73
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I still don't see the proof that the 45 ACP is anemic as was stated.
You seem to have gotten away from the whole thought of the OP.
Quote:
I have no doubt the .45 is a effective round but the video shows some of the rubbish that is talked about it.
That rubbish being the whole "knock down" power thing that doesn't exist. Even in your 357 Sig, or the 357 Magnum, 10MM, or any other round for that matter.

There are certainly good choices for SD available, but with a muzzle energy of between 340 and nearly 600 ft.lbs, the 100 year old 45 ACP is one of them.

This ballistic gel comparison shows very similar performance with several good calibers. Including the 357 Sig, and the 45 ACP.
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/...comparison.jpg
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Old September 4, 2012, 11:28 PM   #74
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Anemic? No

Overrated? Absolutely

I am not at all getting away from the OP's point. That point is that while the 45 is a good tool for self defense, it is often highly overrated. That is not bashing the 45 at all, that is just being real. There are a lot of 45 fan boys out there whose foolishness or ignorance constantly spews forth from their mouths and keyboards. It is a shame too. The 45 can stand just fine on it's own merits.
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Old September 5, 2012, 07:39 AM   #75
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Again, I remind you that this is the statement that I totally disagree with:
Quote:
I like the 45 as much as the next guy, however, it is quite anemic by today's standards.
Not that there are many who think that the 45 ACP is the be all, end all cartridge. There are more powerful rounds, there are platforms for equally powerful, or more powerful rounds that have higher capacity. But to call the 45 ACP as it is loaded today anemic is just plain nonsense!
BTW, just so you know, while I do own several guns chambered in 45 ACP including a compact sized 1911, the guns I carry most often are chambered in 40 S&W, 9MM, and 380 ACP depending on weather, and the need for deep concealment.
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