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Old August 27, 2012, 08:15 AM   #26
BlueTrain
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I'm still a believer in knockdown power. Boxers have it and bullets have it. I don't mean it the way you necessarily believe it but if it didn't exist, people would never hit the ground unless they tripped over something. It definately doesn't exist like you see it in the movies, but to say it doesn't exist is to say being shot will have no effect on you. On the other hand, maybe you've never been knocked down.

Curiously, one of the statements made by Sykes and Fairbairn in their book was that the only guaranteed reaction to a gun shot was to double up in pain if shot in the abdomen and here I read that it had no effect on someone. So maybe there are no guarantees at all.

My father, by the way, who was an infantry combat veteran and should have known better, said a .45 would knock you down if it hit you in your little finger. But come to think of it, I've known more than one person who was missing fingers!
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Old August 27, 2012, 10:52 AM   #27
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A good expanding bullet that makes a big hole will lower blood pressure pretty fast
Only if it hits a large blood vessel.
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Old August 27, 2012, 12:39 PM   #28
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I'll just be glad when they come out with a device that stops a perp's actions without killing and does it much more reliably. The Taser was promising but doesn't always work.
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Old August 27, 2012, 09:49 PM   #29
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As the old adage goes, 9's may expand but .45's don't shrink. My mother is an ER nurse and she talks about a lot about patients with gun shot wounds. I'm pretty sure these gang members and the like put much thought into bullet type but she did state that 3-4 pints of blood is normal for total loss. Lol one time I tried to explain bullet types, expansion, wound channels, etc. She finally just said," hun all I know is they come in looking like hell. We get gallons of blood at a time". I carry the .45ACP in the cooler months in 1911 form. If I had any doubt of its effectiveness' I wouldn't carry it.
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Old August 27, 2012, 10:49 PM   #30
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A video showing some of the rubbish from so called experts regards the .45 caliber round.
I have no doubt the .45 is a effective round but the video shows some of the rubbish that is talked about it.
you mean gun mag writers really don't speak the truth? WOW who would've thunk it
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Old August 27, 2012, 11:59 PM   #31
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
people would never hit the ground unless they tripped over something.
People hit the ground after being shot due to:
1. Massive damage to the central nervous system. The brain or spinal cord eliminating muscle control.

2. Intense physical pain, and shock.

3. Psychological shock of realizing they have been shot resulting in fainting.

But bullets don't "knock them down". Period!!!
Simple physics explained by that Newton dude with his equal and opposite thing.
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Old August 28, 2012, 05:40 AM   #32
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We differ on what being "knocked down" means. They go down because they were shot. One can be literally knocked down, by which I do not mean knocked off your feet or blown backwards a few feet. Ask a friend to hit you on your head with a baseball bat. Chances are, you will go down. That's knock down power. Otherwise, it's like saying "I knew what pain was. I just didn't know it hurt."

There is some controversy over whether it is possible to be knocked down backwards, as sometimes shown in the movies. The consensus is that it isn't possible but at least one very dramatic photo from the Spanish Civil War shows a soldier when hit clearly going over backwards. But I don't think it adds much to the discussion, really.

However, it's also worth mentioning that being knocked down, going down, collapsing or merely tripping over your shoelaces does not mean you will stay down. That's true of game animals, too.

There was a long article on this very subject in the 1962 Gun Digest, the title of which was "Knock down nothing," if I remember correctly.

To say they are not knocked down suggests that the bullet had nothing to do with it and as you know, that's only true with a .45, for which an actual hit is not required.

Or so I am led to believe.
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Old August 28, 2012, 09:40 AM   #33
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We differ on what being "knocked down" means.
Generally on this and other forums the term knock down power is understood that the person using it believes in the Hollywood description with the victim flying through the air. Or at least being caused ti fall back, and down strictly by the kinetic energy of the bullet. which you agree is total BS.
But of course you are free to use the term as you like.
I even heard a guy with no business behind the gun counter at a local BPS tell a customer he should buy a 45 rather than a 9MM because it has better knock down power, and "With the 45 you can knock somebody down even if you just hit them in the finger" I didn't say a word, just make sure if I'm looking to buy from them he isn't working the counter!
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Old August 28, 2012, 11:43 AM   #34
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Oh, no! Don't tell me a .45 is no better than a 9mm?

On a more serious note, Fairbairn & Sikes discussed this in their book. He said that the more he learned about the subject (stopping power, or whatever he called it), the less certain he was about it, which is certainly refreshingly honest. Others seem to be just the opposite and are positively dogmatic about it, or at least they are in what they write. Unfortunately, some of them have something to sell in the meantime.

Nobody ever mentions how small a target a finger is, either.
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Old August 28, 2012, 02:19 PM   #35
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If one talks about "ball" or FMJ ammo, then the .45 is one of the better rounds simply because it opens a larger hole for blood loss (despite the round nose FMJ being a poor design for such).

When it comes to modern JHP ammo which expands as designed, the .45 does have a slight edge because the total volume of disrupted tissue is still a bit larger than smaller rounds. But this assumes identical bullet placement in identical targets which is seldom the case. To get an idea of the kind of damage and trauma a .45 JHP can cause, watch either this video (Federal HST) or this one (Speer Gold Dot).


Quote:
Only the combination of penetration and placement to hit the very few and rather small vital organs -- is what makes the injury immediately fatal (brain steam, aorta, and I assume, heart).
You omitted the central nervous system (CNS). Any round that can reach and damage the spine stands a very good chance of shutting down your opponent if you can hit that rather narrow target. Making a head shot isn't a guaranteed stoppage, but usually works.

When it comes to COM shots, a retired Coroner told me that most of the "instant" fatalities he'd seen (that didn't involve a CNS hit) involved a solid hit in the top 3-4 inches of the sternum. Specifically, the region of the aortic arch (above the heart). Medical diagrams show that the esophagus, trachea and aortic arch are all crammed in this area so a miss of the heart's main output artery can still impact the main ventilation system or the ability to swallow, which can make breathing very difficult. Many times all three of these major are damaged by a bullet or bone fragments. In those cases, the subject almost immediately stops being aggressive and concentrates on trying to stay alive. Damaging the aortic arch is kind of like ripping out the all the oil and fuel lines at the same time. Blood pressure drops in seconds.

Other hit points flank the spine between the neck and groin. The main arteries that move blood through the body are on the back wall of the body. If you disrupt these, blood loss is rapid and dramatic.
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Old August 28, 2012, 02:45 PM   #36
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The power of the .45...heavens knows I wouldn't want to get hit with ANY bullet let alone a .45 but does anybody remember this video where the guy shot himself in the leg with a .45...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvAxLX6OzE

Not as famous as DEA agent 'Fortay'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeGD7r6s-zU

but both managed to carry on without being instantly incapacitated despite being shot with a .45 and a .40 respectively.

Cheapshooter:
Quote:
"With the 45 you can knock somebody down even if you just hit them in the finger" I didn't say a word, just make sure if I'm looking to buy from them he isn't working the counter!
Don't be too hasty - he might be the one to sell you that Colt Python revolver for $200 because 'revolvers are old fashioned and everybody knows semi-autos are better.'
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Old August 28, 2012, 03:03 PM   #37
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Don't be too hasty - he might be the one to sell you that Colt Python revolver for $200 because 'revolvers are old fashioned and everybody knows semi-autos are better.'
Actually I haven't seen him there in some time....Gee, wonder why???
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Old August 28, 2012, 03:10 PM   #38
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I believe the 45acp is a very effective round and possible better then the other pistol calibers at ranges of twenty yards and under, ( current bullet designs offer very good performance in all calibers.) Many Police Depts are switching over to 45acp for good reasons. But I keep thinking about the Officer who was off duty with his girlfriend when an active shooter entered the mall they were in, (Western US somewhere.) He was carrying a seven or eight shot 1911 (Kimber I believe.) When interviewed later on he kept saying that only having seven or eight shots played a huge factor in his decision making and he didn't bring the fight to the assailant. He did back up a local Sergeant who responded. SWAT ended up taking out the assailant when they made entry. There is something to be said for round count.
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Old August 28, 2012, 03:44 PM   #39
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Me again. There are more myths about the .45 auto than its effectiveness and the first one that comes to mind is that it's difficult to shoot.

Anyone here think it's actually difficult to shoot? Now, I will admit that the lightweight Colt Officer's ACP was something of a handful to shoot, meaning you really had to hang onto the thing when you shot it and there weren't going to be any double-taps, either, not with me doing the tapping. However, I wouldn't call it unpleasant as in .357 unpleasant magnum. I don't think I've fired a 9mm in a pistol that small but a garden variety PPK in .380, as well as a Makarov, which is worse, are not really all that pleasant to shoot just for fun. But if you go up a notch to a Colt lightweight Commander, it becomes quite manageable. After using my own practice handloads for 9mm, using factory 9mm was always surprising in comparison. Overall, however, I'd rate the .45 auto easy to shoot, rather than what you sometimes hear.

Accuracy? Provided you aren't using something manufactured before I was born, which they still were when I was in the army, all the .45 autos I ever owned were equal to or better than any 9mm or .38 Super pistol. Unfortunately, I have to admit that most (but not all) of my .38/.357 revolvers were marginally easier to shoot but that was with target loads. But frankly, you really don't hear complaints about the accuracy of a .45 ACP that you can take seriously.

Reliability? More related to the pistol itself, I suppose, but after 100 years, most of the bugs should have been worked out, wouldn't you say?

So, why don't I have one? I've got a nice stash of ammo somewhere or other.
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Old August 28, 2012, 05:33 PM   #40
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1911 myths...Bluetrain...don't forget the one about the weight of a 1911. I remember one writer many years ago saying it was the only handgun that could double as a small boat anchor.
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Old August 28, 2012, 06:32 PM   #41
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When I was a kid- '50s- 60's- I heard from Korean War vets (who you'd think would know better) that a .45 round in the hand would knock ya down. This was an article of faith second only to The Gospel. Likewise if you press on the barrel of a 1911 with your finger it would lock up the pistol so it couldnt be fired. Nevermind that the .45 was so inaccurate that you couldnt hit anything further than you could throw it anyway....
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Old August 28, 2012, 06:53 PM   #42
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a shot in the hand with a fmj will drop a bg!

provided he's holding the hand in front of his eyes.
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Old August 29, 2012, 06:26 AM   #43
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Given what everyone thinks they know today, one wonders where the reputation of both the .45 auto and the .45 (Long) Colt ever came from. That's no joke, either. In reading through my old copy of Small Arms of the World, they (don't know if it was Smith or Smith) stated the only round with proven combat ability was the .45 auto. Could be.

But Mr. DanRanull, my father said the same thing. We say they should have known better. Maybe we should know better. Maybe none of us know anything!

My father never mentioned actually using a .45 auto, though I do have a photo of him wearing a revolver, almost certainly a .45, in a reverse draw holster and an MP shoulder strap rig. He's standing in front of a Jeep in a photo that is so "period correct" as to be impossible to reproduce today. I should try to post that, except it's beyond my technical ability.

It's a particularly interesting photo. The Jeep has no bumper markings like are common now and his OD service dress jacket (not a short Ike jacket) has no brass collar insignia. I also have another photo somewhere in the recesses of the cedar chest of him standing in front of one of those bell tents wearing fatigues with a Daisy Mae hat and armed with a shotgun. Just by coincidence, I also have a photo of my son in the army armed with a shotgun--and a pistol.
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Old September 2, 2012, 01:07 AM   #44
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Every living creature I ever shot with a 22 ,from hogs to dragon flies, either died or ran away. I still prefer to tote a 38 and keep a bedside 357.
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Old September 2, 2012, 02:44 PM   #45
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The 45 ACP was a good round 100 years ago, even 30 years ago. Things change, we evolve. People 100 years ago were a lot smaller than they are today. Big Macs have taken their toll. People today are bigger, stronger and healthier than 100 years ago. The average life expectancy was 47 in 1911 to day it is 77. The average chest wall is twice as thick today as in 1911.

Sure a 45 will kill you stone dead cold, but there are better options today.
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Old September 2, 2012, 09:58 PM   #46
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Do you have a link about the average chest wall thickness? Are you talking the thickness of the chest wall itself or the associated exterior muscle & fat tissues on the outside? Not doubting, just looking for references.

1900 - Average life expectancy (Male) at age 10: 68.59 years
2004 - Average life expectancy (Male) at age 10: 76.30 years
Source: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005140.html

This is different than the "average life expectancy at birth" often used. These figures, at age 10, eliminate early mortality due to childhood deaths from childbirth, childhood diseases and accidents.

Quote:
People 100 years ago were a lot smaller than they are today. Big Macs have taken their toll. People today are bigger, stronger and healthier than 100 years ago. The average life expectancy was 47 in 1911 to day it is 77. The average chest wall is twice as thick today as in 1911.
Taken at face value, I see contradictions in your comment above. People 100 years ago may have been smaller, but today's "larger" adults are also more overweight and less physically fit than 100 years ago.¹ Most people live longer today because of a number of factors, such as;
  • More nutritious diet
  • Safer working conditions with fewer farm & industrial accidents.
  • Higher survivability in auto accidents.
  • Modern medical procedures & antibiotics
  • Improved medical diagnosis technologies (MRI, CAT, PET, etc.)
  • Broader array of pharmaceuticals
  • Better geriatric care (after age 60)
Today's victims of handgun shootings are much more likely to survive than just 50 years ago and enormously more likely than 100 years ago.²

I posit that 100 years ago, people who died of gunshot wounds from handguns likely survived the initial encounter but died hours or days later due more to a lack of timely medical care (bleeding & infections) and less detailed medical knowledge. Further, if our technical capacity was suddenly forced back to around 1900³ then today's modern JHP ammo would prove to be much more lethal than ammo from 100 years ago.



¹ Thanks to modern conveniences like the automobile and other powered machinery from pumped water to vacuum cleaners and farm equipment.
² Between 1900 and about 1950, medical aid took much longer to summon (fewer phones, slower communications). Even then, ambulance attendants were only trained in first-aid as a general rule. In the late 1960's, the first experimental paramedic units showed the benefit of trained personnel and getting people treated within "the golden hour" of their injury. In the 70's, paramedic units started spreading to every state.
³ Such a setback is possible by use of an EMP attack against the U.S. For more information, see: http://www.onesecondafter.com/ or read the novel One Second After by William Forstchen.
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Old September 2, 2012, 10:16 PM   #47
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I watched the video for its historical purposes. Take it for what its worth. The "experts" were quite annoying.

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Old September 2, 2012, 10:48 PM   #48
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I Watched as much of the video as I could stand. Geez. Listen carefully to someone who has actually seen people bleeding from gunshot wounds(Retired Nurse), where you hit someone is more important than what you shoot them with. As for all the stuff he spouted on the video about the .45,"Son around here we shovel that stuff out from behind our Bulls, we don't play with it"
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Old September 2, 2012, 11:08 PM   #49
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Quote:
The 45 ACP was a good round 100 years ago, even 30 years ago. Things change, we evolve. People 100 years ago were a lot smaller than they are today. Big Macs have taken their toll. People today are bigger, stronger and healthier than 100 years ago. The average life expectancy was 47 in 1911 to day it is 77. The average chest wall is twice as thick today as in 1911.

Sure a 45 will kill you stone dead cold, but there are better options today.

I'm glad BillCA posted such a good rebuttal to this ridiculous post. After reading it I was laughing waaaaay to hard to write anything!
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Old September 3, 2012, 05:09 AM   #50
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I'm afraid I missed something in the lat few posts. What exactly are the better options?
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