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Old August 26, 2012, 09:18 PM   #51
5.56RifleGuy
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Like kraigwy I wish they would have waited or followed him rather than confront him in an area where there was a high likely hood that other people would be injured.

I know this was unknown at the time, but even if they did lose him, they would have most likely found him again, given the amount of people that knew there was bad blood between him and the guy he murdered.

The original victim was already dead. The guy wasn't walking around the street randomly shooting people, why risk other lives to stop him right there?
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Old August 26, 2012, 09:59 PM   #52
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Back to the original question...how good is your marksmanship under stress.

Take two shooters, one who practices a lot and one who thinks he's good enough for CCW and shoots every now and then. Go to the range, set up several shoot targets, some no-shoots here and there and some hard cover.

Now take the title to their cars and the deed for their homes and put them in a hat. You are being scored on speed and accuracy. Any non threat hit makes you the automatic loser. Winner takes all.

Who will feel more stress? Who will perform under pressure? Will one feel more pressure than the other even under the same situational stress? Will one "knowing" he can do it because he has practiced it have an advantage over one who "thinks" he can do it because when he does shoot he's "pretty good"?

If you CCW and do not do everything within your time and financial limitations to practice and become as proficient as possible you put yourself and those around you at risk. With the right comes responsibility.

If you put a gun and a bullet proof vest on as your uniform for your job (and I have) you owe yourself, your partner and me no less. If my life and safety depend on you knowing how to use the tools of your trade then, by God, you better know how to use them. Don't hand me that crap about how the department only provides enough ammo to qualify once a year.

If this perp had pulled his gun on a stranger and been neutralized by a citizen with his personal CCW, preventing further loss of life, but in the process the citizen inflicted wounds on 9 innocent people he would be figuratively CRUCIFIED by the press, the police and probably the community. Why hold the Police to a lesser standard? After all, Bloomberg says "they are the professionals." Don't get me wrong, I love Police Officers and they do a heck of a job but never give them a pass for not becoming proficient with their sidearm.
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Old August 26, 2012, 10:14 PM   #53
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If you CCW and do not do everything within your time and financial limitations to practice and become as proficient as possible you put yourself and those around you at risk.
Uh-huh, and if you haven't mastered various other open hand martial arts and practice those, learned at least paramedic level medical practices and are fully competent, learned and practice evasive driving from qualified instructors, memorized your home, workplace, and places of regular visitation to the level of being able to navigate fully in complete darkness, etc. etc. etc., within your time and financial limitations, then you are a danger and liability to those around you.

With being alive in American society comes great responsibility.

Come on! EVERYTHING? There isn't CCW folks who aren't already in the security industries that trains to the limits of their available time and financial resources. Everyone has excuses for all sorts of other things that are no necessary that they put ahead of doing everything to be proficient as possible. Even most professionals don't do that much.
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Old August 26, 2012, 10:39 PM   #54
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What the heck are you talking about? Is there a point?

So you believe you have no duty whatsoever to become proficient with your pistol?

Wait, I get it...you are a double naught spy so I can see where you would need to be proficient in all the other things you mention.

Get serious. This is serious business.
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Old August 26, 2012, 10:53 PM   #55
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Actually, I think DNS makes a very good point. I'd wager that many of the same people who are aghast at how little shooting the police have to do in order to stay current in their qualifications haven't had any formal driver training since they got their learner's permits decades ago.

I still find people who learned to drive in the pre-ABS days and have no idea that yes, you're supposed to depress the brake pedal fully and keep it there to minimize braking distance while still being able to steer and avoid an obstacle.

I'd also bet that over the course of a lifetime, you're a lot more likely to save your own life (or inadvertently take someone else's) as a result of your driving abilities than as a result of your shooting abilities.
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Old August 26, 2012, 11:01 PM   #56
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DNS and Scottriqui,

I agree totally! I think some folks get a skewed idea from being active in something, like firearms/shooting, and it seems to lead them to believe that everyone that has a firearm is similarly proficient, and/or interested.

I can offer to take any number of folks I know to the range (many with a ccw) and they always have an excuse as to why they are always busy, dont have the time, etc.
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Old August 26, 2012, 11:48 PM   #57
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I personally think both Police Officers acted bravely and with skill.
Brave, yes. Skill? Ummmm ..... er ..... yeah, they know which end the bullets come out of and where the bang switch is.

Going 5 for 14 at a man standing 8 feet away and is not yet shooting back is not exactly an example of good marksmanship.
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Old August 26, 2012, 11:59 PM   #58
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I was thinking about when you take friends/coworkers to the range (police officers and CCW permites ) and they can't hit the broard side of a barn. And then the excuses start... Wrong grain bullets, too much wind, too hot, hand hurting, etc... etc...
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Old August 27, 2012, 01:42 AM   #59
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ZXIf you CCW and do not do everything within your time and financial limitations to practice and become as proficient as possible you put yourself and those around you at risk. With the right comes responsibility.
For someone who carries, he needs to be as proficient as he plans to be in a life-threatening situation. Most people who carry are not going to intervene in a hostage situation or bank robbery, and don't need a tremendous amount of skill. There are some people who only carry in case they are raped, or robbed at an ATM. It doesn't take a whole lot of marksmanship to hit someone at arm's length. It does take some intestinal fortitude, and that can't be taught in a classroom.

90% of people only need to know to keep their fingers off their triggers and the guns pointed in a safe direction. And that isn't exactly rocket science.

Plenty of us are willing to go beyond that in training. Good for us. But not everyone is the same.

Quote:
I still find people who learned to drive in the pre-ABS days and have no idea that yes, you're supposed to depress the brake pedal fully and keep it there to minimize braking distance while still being able to steer and avoid an obstacle.
Kind of off topic, but I never owned a vehicle with ABS until a few years ago, and the hell of it is that in a life or death situation, it's a hard habit to break. ABS is made for people who panic and lock up the brakes. Doesn't really matter that you "know" to start braking like someone who panics. It takes a long time to train your way out of decades of driving like a normal person.
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Old August 27, 2012, 05:41 AM   #60
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I personally think it is expecting a lot of anyone to be as proficient as possible with a handgun for a couple of reasons. For one thing, it's expensive, going on very expensive, besides in a lot of cases, going on impossible. There just isn't enough range space to go around, at least if everyone did that. Even so, when I go to the range, there's a line all the way round the room of people waiting to shoot.

Another thing is that you simply cannot keep yourself at the peak of perfection forever. By that, I mean nothing more than the simple fact that you lose your physical abilities over time. Young people won't believe that. On top of that is diminishing returns of additional practice. You're only going to be so good and in fact, I believe additional shooting will even reduce your abilities. I won't go out on a limb and say how much is about right, though, but that's been discussed in other threads.

Judging from what I read, most civilian encounters are nothing like what the police do, and likewise, most successful civilian use of a firearm were not by people who were highly trained or experienced in what just happened. Chances are, neither will the police. From what I understand, policemen who are involved in shootings will find themselves in assignments of less risk. As for civilians, the law of averages is on their side. Of course, trees fall on people's houses all the time where I live but the law of averages is still on our side.
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Old August 27, 2012, 06:28 AM   #61
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What the heck are you talking about? Is there a point?

So you believe you have no duty whatsoever to become proficient with your pistol?

Wait, I get it...you are a double naught spy so I can see where you would need to be proficient in all the other things you mention.

Get serious. This is serious business.
You are right. It is serious business. I built my own range inclusive of a 100 yard pistol range 270 degree target (and it isn't square!) and 400 yard rifle range and have even hosted pistol competitions and other shooting events. I shoot thousands of rounds a year, been to lots of defensive pistol, shotgun, and carbine classes.

So yeah, I know what it means to be serious about practice, instruction, and training, along with the responsibility for all of that.

What's the point? Your call that folks have the responsibility to become proficient to the limits of their time and financial obligations with their CCW weapon is ludacris and is so because it is so unrealistic.

I do aprpeciate you backtracking from claiming people need to become proficient to the limits of their time and financial limitations for their CCW (as if CCW solves all the world's problems) and then quering me about thinking folks have no responsibility. That isn't what I intimated or said at all.

So why aren't you proficient in all the other areas as well? Why do you think you need to be more proficient in CCW shooting than medical training? While most CCW folks (like cops) never shoot their guns in defense while CCWing, they do encounter situations, often multiple every year, where medical training is beneficial. Human health is serious business and if preserving life is your concern, your time might first best be spent learning proper medical practices because you are more apt to need them than your CCW. Training to the limits of your time and financial limitations for CCW shooting at the expense of not training in other areas such as getting medical training would be stupid. Of course if you do get medical training, then you have lost that time where you could have been practicing for the CCW shooting that may never come.

BTW, as a Double Naught Spy, I have given up my hollywood acting and directing goals and am no longer working on becoming a brain surgeon.
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Old August 27, 2012, 08:06 AM   #62
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Another thing I forgot to mention in my previous post was a single thing that sets these encounters apart and perhaps may even be the most stress inducing thing, at least for some people. That's the shoot or no shoot question. The bad guy is way beyond that point and the rest of us, I assue, are no where near being prepared to answer the question. Oh, I know, you go to training where you have to make that decision but the worst that can happen is you fail the course. Unless that training is more realistic than most, no one goes home dead. If there's a way to make that decision ahead of time, this would be a good place to talk about it.
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Old August 27, 2012, 08:44 AM   #63
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To change the theme a bit, I see a lot of post here trying to excuse NOT practicing with their respective carry pistol/revolvers.

No time, no money, too old, no range close by, range is full, etc etc etc.

I call BS. The best and cheapest practice and training one can get doesn't cost a penny. It's dry firing. Practice drawing and presentation.

Sure actually firing in needed, But tons of dry firing will go a long ways to make what shooting you do, more productive.

My favorite "TOO OLD" or not physically fit. That one is totally BS, I'm 65, not in good shape at all, with 5 stints total leaving me with a bad ticker and COPD, I can still draw my J-Frame from my pocket and hit center mass up to 15 feet in less then 1/2 second.

Not because I'm naturally good, (there is no such thing as natural abilities when it comes to shooting, only hard work). What I do do is I have a little blue plastic J-frame training gun that I spend hours a week, walking around drawing it from my pocket and dry firing.

I do shoot a lot true, min 200 rounds a week minium, but I'm aware not everyone can do that.

If we spend as much time dry firing as we do complaining and coming up with reasons why we can't do something, we'd be much better off.

If we carry a firearm in our daily lives its our responsibility to be come proficient with it. We ow it to ourselves, our families and the public in general so if we ever have to use our gun, we don't have to result in "spray and pray"

I'll end this with a quote from Thomas Jefferson in a Letter to Peter Carr, 1785

Quote:
A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercise, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent to the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun be your constant companion of your walks.
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Old August 27, 2012, 09:50 AM   #64
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To Double Naught Spy

I appreciate your prosaic response and your dedication to defensive pistolcraft as evidenced by your described efforts to train and practice.

I never said one should spend all their time and money to practice. I said they should become as proficient as possible within the limits of their available time and money. Obviously we all have other demands on both but if I choose to exercise my right to defend myself with lethal force if necessary, then I should spend an appropriate amount of those resources which are otherwise available to me to train, practice and become as proficient as I am able within those constraints.

Much like you I take it a bit further than I would expect of everyone because I have more resources available than most. I am CPR trained and certified. I do take a defensive driving course yearly (required by my employer). I did have my own rifle and pistol range when I had the property to do so and provided certified instruction at that facility for several years, I too expend thousands of rounds per year in training, practice and competition.

I no longer instruct for a fee. I do, however, offer my services free of charge to fellow club members, friends, co-workers, their wives and families to help them become more proficient in a shorter time and at much less cost than I bore.

It is serious business. I take it seriously, as do you from what you have said. I only stated, and still believe, that all who CCW should become as proficient as they can given their own personal limitations of time and funds available to them. It's not the same for everyone.
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Old August 27, 2012, 09:55 AM   #65
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I've said this before about training. I understand the 'rights' issue when it comes to being able to carry concealed. That's an interesting debate.

However, I do come down on the side that if you are going to put forward the 'sheepdog', protector of the flock argument - then you have the responsibility to get reasonable training.

That's a subtle point. If you are just going to save yourself - then have fun.

This is important to me in the debates about campus carry. I continually get the critique that if we have a rampage (as compared to mugger be gone in the parking lot), folks would like the defender to have some competency under stress. Shooting an innocent, even if you save more, is a major no-no and sticking point. I know folks who would be OK with me carrying but then say they don't feel good about a well-know gun supporting bluster boy (I agree with them about his abililties).

kraig- me too, I try to shoot about 3 times a month and dry fire at annoying TV shows. I am getting a touch old for the H2H. Did a small knife fighting class and messed up my hand recently. Had to listen to the significant other express her opinion of old men playing games.
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Old August 27, 2012, 09:58 AM   #66
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OOPS...had an AD with the keyboard. Better put a heavier spring on that ENTERKey!
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Old August 27, 2012, 10:10 AM   #67
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There is no excuse for any law enforcement officer to not be proficient in any part of his job, they are paid as fully qualified LEO's, and if not fully qualified they should reduced in grade, pay and retrained or fired. If It was proven, as in the case of these officers, that I was not fully qualified in all aspects of my job I would be terminated. How can anyone defend a LEO that, in this incident it is quite evident, is not qualified with his sidearm. Most People that I know that have a CWFL spend many hours practicing at +\- 8 yds each month and the majority can place most shots COM.

These two officers did not use good judgement, they should not have engaged the individual in the area with hundreds of innocent bystanders. To apprehend one bad guy is not worth injuries or death of one innocent bystander. Why are high speed pursuites not allowed by most departments? Because of possible injuries to other drivers.

Bloomberg and the Brady Bunch blew their speech and news release on this one
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Old August 27, 2012, 10:38 AM   #68
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I can still draw my J-Frame from my pocket and hit center mass up to 15 feet in less then 1/2 second.
Still waiting to see the video of that. Hard to believe that you don't know someone with at least an iphone .....
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Old August 27, 2012, 11:03 AM   #69
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Still waiting to see the video of that. Hard to believe that you don't know someone with at least an iphone .....
My wife has been wanting to get one of those little camera's when she does I'll try to make a video. Can't guarantee the quality.

Who knows, I might become a movie star.

As to iphones, I don't have one but I wouldn't know how to work it if I did.

But if you want to bring your camera to Wyoming, you can make all the movies you want.
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Old August 27, 2012, 11:06 AM   #70
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To Mr. Chuckusaret, generally policemen who actually are in armed encounters no matter what the outcome, provided they survive it, more than one time will often be reassigned to an off-the-street assignment. If nothing else, that takes experienced policemen out of circulation. I don't know how common it is or if it makes a difference.

In any event, you can't fire people just because they aren't perfect (or sufficiently proficient to meet your standards). Pretty soon you'd run out of employees. Remember also, no matter whether or not they exercised good judgement, they had to make their decision then and there. They didn't think about it over the weekend before deciding what the best thing to do was going to be.
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Old August 27, 2012, 12:00 PM   #71
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3000 Miles To Graceland...

Not to bring up a Hollywood action film as a good example, but here goes....
If you watch the 2000s era action movie; 3000 Miles To Graceland, the casino take-down scene gives a example of armed guards/LE NOT shooting directly at or engaging armed subjects(said robbers with rifles, SMGs & shotguns).
The uniformed guards waited until the take-down crew was away from the main floor.
Now, I know it's a action film but a real event like that would also take some strong willpower to avoid a full auto gunfight in a crowded area.

If you never watched the movie, check it out, just for that scene.

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Old August 27, 2012, 01:09 PM   #72
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generally policemen who actually are in armed encounters no matter what the outcome, provided they survive it, more than one time will often be reassigned to an off-the-street assignment
That wasn't the way it was on Anchorage Police Dept and most departments I've dealt with.

If you are involved in a shooter:

1st They take the gun involve but the supervisor is immediately required to give you another service revolver/pistol.

2: Mandatory three days off WITH PAY

3: Then you return to your normal duty position.

4: After that, depends on the ruling by the coroner inquest, if its ruled justifiable then that's the end of it, you get your original gun back after all court proceedings are complete.
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Old August 27, 2012, 01:16 PM   #73
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Off with pay and then get an office job? Sure would give you a hair trigger! LoL. Yep it's the same way here Kraig!
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Old August 27, 2012, 01:26 PM   #74
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I asked questions on the other thread that was closed due to a duplicate thread on this subject so I'll ask again here:

I've not seen a vid. that has sound so I was wondering...

When perp was walking down street and the two LEO'S approached him from behind, did perp arbitrarily just turn around and see LEO's or did LEO's order perp to stop?

Also, the vids I've watched shows everything happening in seconds. Since there's no sound on the vids. and knowing the perp never fired a round at the LEO's, was wondering since one officer fired 9 rds., the other seven, how fast were these shots fired?
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Old August 27, 2012, 01:29 PM   #75
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Any cop I knew would whine like yankees if you pulled them off the street for a desk job.

I spent my whole career as a street cop (with additional duties when call upon). I refused to ever take the Sgts test for fear it could get me off the street.

I would have went nuts setting at a desk.
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