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Old August 25, 2012, 07:31 PM   #26
kraigwy
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I wasn't there so this is just what I've read of the incident, and the videos posted all over the Internet.

Based on that, I question the timing and location of the incident. The way I read it,the bandit was walking away with his gun in a bag of some sort in an extremely crowded area. He didn't pull the gun until confronted by the police.

If the bandit wasn't endangering any one esle, why not follow him to a better place for a confrontation.

Hell you do that on traffic stops, you follow the car and iniciate the stop at a place of your choosing. A place where there is a less chance of bystanders getting in the way.

I also think that NYCP would have been able to buy lots of bullets, and fund lots of training for what it's gonna cost them in law suits.
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Old August 25, 2012, 07:37 PM   #27
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kraigwy, I had the same thought when watching this video.
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Old August 25, 2012, 07:37 PM   #28
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Second guessing - he's walking through one of the most crowded venues you can find - when will he get to somewhere less crowded. I've been there, ain't going to happen easily.

Also, when does he go nuts again and start shooting?

See, it was a mess - besides missing the guy, they had few good choices.
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Old August 25, 2012, 07:57 PM   #29
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What Glenn said, +1

It's just too easy to Monday morning quarterback this incident.
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Old August 25, 2012, 09:05 PM   #30
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Marksmanship does deteriorate under stress. That's one reason that good training and practice can be important, and one reason why competition experience can be valuable. As I learned from competition: no target is too big or too close to miss.

Skill level vary a great deal among police (as well as among private citizens). In a rapidly unfolding crisis in which one needs to act, he'll have to use whatever skills he has at the time. If those skills aren't fully up to the task, results will be less than satisfactory.
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Old August 25, 2012, 09:11 PM   #31
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Yes like traffic stops, but he could go ballistic on other innocent people too and that would open up another can of worms. Damed if you do and Damed if you don't. All in all I'm glad it worked out for the officers the lawsuits well they can afford that too. I'd like us gun nuts on here to go to a live fire house or something similar and just see what we each could really do or not do. I bet alot of us would really be surprised. One way or the other! And we're gun nuts , unlike alot of officers who only have to qualify once a yeàr. Yes it is alot easier to see things afterwards and point out faults but if we were there sometimes just choose what you're gonna do and do it. All in all in any situation you better have really good training to revert to or alot of luck.
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Old August 25, 2012, 09:32 PM   #32
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"You're only as good as you practice."
This statement is only half true because nobody is shooting back at you in practice.
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Old August 25, 2012, 10:21 PM   #33
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True in that sense. But atleast you do tons that can help you in those situations instead of others that never do are hardly train and won't have a clue what to do are not do in a bad situation.
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Old August 25, 2012, 11:06 PM   #34
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Practice using Sim rounds or paintball. Even airsoft.
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Old August 25, 2012, 11:07 PM   #35
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Was the LEO's aim lousy? When I see a diagram of where EVERYBODY was as well as where the rounds actually hit( you can't aim bullet fragments!) maybe, I would think about a critique, maybe.
But as a veteran of many life or death situations( Nursing, and keep in mind nobody was shooting at me during these times) some people react better than others when the chips are down. There were perhaps 25% of us who could reliably think as the patient was doing their best to die on us. 1/4! and these were carefully selected people who worked at an internationally known hospital! No one was shooting at us at the time I might repeat!
LEO's do their very best but you have to remember there is no big red "S"on their chest they are just human.
Not only that New York cops probably have less hours handling a hand gun because they grew up under NYC's draconian gun laws. They probably see trouble and things that are out of the ordinary for the city better than I would because of it, It's a trade off.
We had core teams for when we had to resuscitate somebody because we understood this concept.
It's easy to talk big when you've never had someones life in your hands.
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Old August 25, 2012, 11:50 PM   #36
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Nearly 50% of the shots hit the BG, not bad by LEO standards. The problem comes in with that many people around, the BG gave them no option. The officers made contact, sure its what they do. the BG directed that he be shot, he could have surrendered, instead he chose to die, he alone put those other people at risk.
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Old August 26, 2012, 12:26 AM   #37
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50% isn't bad at all. It sounds like a number of those injured were injured by concrete. I also agree one officer probably made the majority of the hits here.

I still doubt this 33% number for police shooting at people.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/24...ntcmp=obinsite
In this news story they say 20%. My CCW instructor who was a Columbus PD instructor cited OPOTA statistics at just below 20%

Around me police shoot a lot of deer maimed by cars. You add in shots fired in such situations you may get up to 33%, but even that situation has some funny stories attached, such as one highway patrolman running out of ammo and doing several thousand dollars of damage without hitting a deer writhing next to a car.

Like most of the military, police simply do not train with their firearms as part of their department funded training. They have lots of other stuff to worry about. Like sexual harassment.
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Old August 26, 2012, 04:30 AM   #38
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Most of the people wounded were hit by ricochets and were minor wounds !
The perp didn't shoot because his gun jammed !!! That should be Rule # 1 -always have a reliable gun !

A study of cops who had been in shootouts showed that those who hit the perps remembered seeing the front sight ,and those who missed didn't !
Front Sight , Front Sight !!!
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Old August 26, 2012, 05:03 AM   #39
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I don't know why people are calling the shooter the BG. As far as the shooter was concerned, he was the GG who shot the BG. Then the cops shot him and everyone around him. Maybe, he's got to be labeled the BG so the people can sooth their own fears and misdeeds.
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Old August 26, 2012, 06:09 AM   #40
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Okay, you got me confused but we're probably not all good guys, either. At least not real good guys. It's not so cut and dried. But in this case, who was the "real" bad guy again and who did he kill?
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Old August 26, 2012, 08:03 AM   #41
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It is all about the training and not just shooting. Simulated deadly force situations using sims, paintball, or air soft are part of the total package. I will not criticize these officers other than to state that the officer who shot one handed would have been better served to use both hands in this particular set of circumstances.

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Old August 26, 2012, 08:08 AM   #42
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19380492
Quote:
All nine people injured in Friday's Empire State Building shooting were hurt as a result of police fire, New York's police chief has confirmed.
Seems the badguy was the least of anyone's worries...
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Old August 26, 2012, 08:29 AM   #43
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New York City incident, "good practice", NYPD...

I wouldn't call the subject a "bandit" because he did not plan or intend to rob the victim. Media reports state the two men knew each other and the victim was murdered in a work related dispute.
I also wouldn't rail against the 2 uniformed patrol officers in the MOS(member of service) shooting. They were most likely regular shulbs who were assigned that area that day or were "on the job". I highly doubt these cops were like the elite ESU or "Hercules" counter-terrorist squad the NYPD set up after 9-11-2001.
To my knowledge, the spec ops officers on the Hercules unit are highly trained & deploy to possible terrorist threats around the metro area on short notice.

Finally, I'd add that a member here made a good point. Practice is important. You can't go out 1/2 a year to shoot at paper targets then consider yourself fully prepared for a lethal force event.
When I was a young soldier going through MP school, one of our cadre made a good point; "you should practice often, but make sure it's good practice. You should train with the correct methods & do it the right way consistently."
The US Army cadre was right. Proper training & mindset can aid you in a lethal force event.

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Old August 26, 2012, 10:02 AM   #44
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Quote:
johnwilliamson062 50% isn't bad at all. It sounds like a number of those injured were injured by concrete.
No, 50% isn't all bad considering more 9 people were hit out of 16 shots that were innocent bystanders! How good is that?

Why do we see the cops' shooting here is being all that good? A LOT of the wrong people were struck by slugs or hit by fragments. That the wounds turned out to be minor (like many of those on the BG shooter) seems to make many folks here happy, as it shooting the wrong people and otherwise injuring the wrong people is okay if the wounds are "minor."

Quote:
I don't know why people are calling the shooter the BG. As far as the shooter was concerned, he was the GG who shot the BG.
Hmm, I don't know, maybe because he went to his former workplace and got into a fight with a person apparently with whom he had had confrontations previously, ended up shooting him to death despite no witnessed threat of lethal force by the deceased, then fled the scene. Once confronted by cops, he pointed a gun at them. That would all seem to indicate that he was not the good guy in the situation...any part of it.

You know, there are bank robbers who don't consider themselves to be bad guys either, but that doesn't make it so.
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Old August 26, 2012, 10:29 AM   #45
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Quote:
I don't know why people are calling the shooter the BG. As far as the shooter was concerned, he was the GG who shot the BG. Then the cops shot him and everyone around him. Maybe, he's got to be labeled the BG so the people can sooth their own fears and misdeeds.
Would calling him a "perpetrator" or a "Suspect" or a "Subject" or "Loser with a gun" be more acceptable? I have no fears or misdeeds I need to sooth. Usually the one making such silly complaints is the one who needs the introspection.
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Old August 26, 2012, 10:45 AM   #46
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Quote:
50% isn't bad at all. It sounds like a number of those injured were injured by concrete. I also agree one officer probably made the majority of the hits here.

I still doubt this 33% number for police shooting at people.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/24...ntcmp=obinsite
In this news story they say 20%. My CCW instructor who was a Columbus PD instructor cited OPOTA statistics at just below 20%
NYPD inlcudes all officer involved shootings (including dogs and suicides) in calculating the 33% average hit rate for their officers. Hit rates against dogs tend to be higher (50% IIRC) and of course hit rates in suicides are very high. LAPD, who does not include suicides, averages 28%.
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Old August 26, 2012, 01:03 PM   #47
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Suicide? Drop your gun, move it from your head or I'll shoot!
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Old August 26, 2012, 01:14 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farmerboy View Post
Suicide? Drop your gun, move it from your head or I'll shoot!
I suspect that the suicide statistics Bart referred involved "suicide by cop."


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Old August 26, 2012, 02:32 PM   #49
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Quote:
I don't know why people are calling the shooter the BG. As far as the shooter was concerned, he was the GG who shot the BG. Then the cops shot him and everyone around him. Maybe, he's got to be labeled the BG so the people can sooth their own fears and misdeeds.
Please tell me you are not serious.
The guy walked up to a former coworker and shot him 5 times! Then, when confronted by the police, he aimed his gun at them.

Murder
Attempted murder

Yeah, those are qualifications for the term "Bad Guy."
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Old August 26, 2012, 04:03 PM   #50
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I personally think both Police Officers acted bravely and with skill. They I believe had been tipped by a civilian that Johnson had a gun or had a gun and had just shot someone. In a place as crowded as New York City and in uniform it is doubtful that they could have followed him to a more safe place to apprehend him and they probably wanted to apprehend him immediately before he shot anyone else.

In the video which is grainy, you see the killer Johnson looking backwards while walking curbside between a large concrete planter with an upright pole and the street with the two police officers one behind the other hurrying to catch up with him from behind him.

Johnson pulls a gun to fire at the police officers and both police officers move to their right to fire at Johnson while taking cover behind the concrete planters. To his credit the police officer farthest away from Johnson who was behind the other police officer bravely breaks cover and moves laterally across his left front while exposing himself to deadly fire and firing at Johnson.

Johnson for some reason moves from behind cover out into the open to his right front while the closest police officer bravely stands his ground and the other police officer who is moving and firing and between the two of them they kill Johnson.

While it is unfortunate, civilians were wounded, I am sure there will be an investigation and the video will be thoroughly analyzed and critiqued and there will be lawsuits and I am sure the NYPD is heavily insured. If there is anyway this could have been prevented or handled better I am sure that be analyzed and found and taught in the future, but at this point I do not know how it could have been handled differently.

This brings us up to the point of accurate shooting in a gunfight and if the officers could have had better training and put all or most of their rounds on target thus reducing or eliminating the wounded civilians.

I really wonder how many of those critical of the officer’s shooting skills have ever been in an actual gunfight themselves or even any split second life and death situation in their entire lifetimes where the stress and adrenalin rush are unreal.

There are two old sayings that come to mind:

“Don’t be too critical of a man, until you have walked in his shoes.”

And

“If you don’t have the guts to play, don't be too critical of those that do."
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