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Old August 26, 2012, 04:58 PM   #1
jproaster
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Shooting while moving forward

So it's just my second time to handgun qualify with our county's version of homeland security. We're really just extra volunteer security for county events and disasters.

Anyhow, I had no trouble after running 35 yards to the 15 yard line and firing 5 rounds. But when I had to advance 8 yards at a slight angle to the second target, shooting on the move, I missed 1 out of 5 and 2 out of 5 on that target. The lateral shooting on the move at 7 and 3 yards at the final six targets was fine for me.

The issue then is how to practice shooting while moving forward. And even though the misses weren't terrible, I didnt feel that I had fluid or rhythmic motions.

Your thoughts.

Thanks.

John
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Old August 26, 2012, 05:30 PM   #2
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Your stance and the amount of bend in your hips and knees can have a dramatic effect on your accuracy when doing a "run and gun".
You need to find a place to practice running and dry firing for starters... some place where people don't think you are insane or dangerous.

Then you figure out what is comfortable and efficient for you. A little bend in your hips and knees, with your weight slightly forward will move you effectively and serve to absorb accuracy damaging impacts. Practice, practice, practice. A comfortable, stable gait is important.

Second phase: What I used to do (and this is me... maybe not for you) for dry practice was to install a bore sight laser in the barrel, and set up some targets... or have your shooting partner set up the targets and course of fire for you.
You run and gun... when you think you have a good sight picture, yell "bang" and your partner can look at where the laser "hits" on the target. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Partner critiques. Don't have a partner? That makes it a little harder 'cause you have to critique your own progress.

Concern yourself with being smooth and comfortable with your gait and gun control... not fast, just smooth and accurate.

I make it sound easier than it is... it takes a whole lot of practice, sweat and yelling "bang" to get good at it.

Cheers,
C
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Old August 26, 2012, 05:34 PM   #3
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I'd highly recommend the DVD, "Close Quarters Marksmanship" $6.95 at the CMP Book Store.

Lessons Covered: Kit Set Up, 7 Principles of High Performan-
ce Shooting, Weapons Presentation, Accuracy, Targets, The
Reload, The Mental Game, Range Drills, The Ready Up Drill,
Recoil Management, Multiple Threat Engagements, Shooting on
the Move, Changing Gears Drills, Alternate Position, Weapons
Transition & Malfunctions.

This was put out by the Army Marksmanship Unit, the best shooters in the world.

https://estore.odcmp.com/store/catal...4=&note5=&max=
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Old August 26, 2012, 07:41 PM   #4
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You have to get your upper body isolated from your lower body. This can be practiced right at home.

If you have seen a good martial artist moving you will notice a good bit of bend in the knees with the feet spread apart and the movements are a very "heel-to toe" or "toe to heel" (when backing) roll of the foot. The waist is slightly bent forward and the hips pivot at the waist so the upper body is like a turret. They keep the upper body more or less square to the threat.

Practice moving this way without the gun. Be like a duck...lots of movement below the water (waist) but smooth above.

Straight forward or backward are a simple "Ninja creep", mostly square to the target, heel to toe, rolling the foot and letting the upper body "float".

Sidways toward the strong hand: turn lower body slightly at the waist but keep upper body mostly square to threat. Same ninja creep and feet will almost cross in a crab like sideways movement.

Sideways toward weak hand: same posture as above but your feet will move in a motion more like backing up while crossing sideways.

Lastly, move in a circle about 4 or 5 feet around while keeping your upper body facing only one direction...pick a wall. This will force you to transition from forward to sideways to backward and then the opposite sideways movement and back to forward.

If you have a Glock, fill a shot glass almost full (use water in case you spill some ) and place it on top of the slide. Sight at anything you choose and move in each direction while keeping the sights on the target and without spilling the water. If you don't have a gun with a flat top, then hold the shot glass in your strong fist, grasping only the very bottom of the glass, achieve your two hand grip and sight across the top of the glass.

If you get too upright you will bounce and get wet.
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Last edited by MTSCMike; August 26, 2012 at 10:50 PM.
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Old August 27, 2012, 09:40 AM   #5
WC145
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Time your shot so that you squeeze the trigger after your heel touches down and your foot is stepping flat that way you have a more stable position. Don't shoot between steps when one foot is in the air.
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Old August 27, 2012, 12:24 PM   #6
jproaster
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Well I surely have plenty to digest. I'll be poring over the tactics and forming a regimen.

Thanks all.

John
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Old August 27, 2012, 03:05 PM   #7
Woody55
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Very simply, you want to move in a way that keeps the weapon at the same height while you move. How you do it is up to you, but you can practice in your living room.
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Old August 27, 2012, 04:41 PM   #8
g.willikers
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A bottle half filled with water can be a substitute for the gun.
Practice moving so the water doesn't slosh in the bottle.
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Old August 27, 2012, 05:17 PM   #9
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I used to get to the range early when nobody was there in the middle of the week with a cart full of liter water filled bottles and set them up starting at the 25 yard line all the way out to the 200 yard berm. Then with my .357 in my left side holster, my 41 mag in my shoulder holster and my 45 auto in my old army field holster on my right side I would advance and shoot each gun till it was empty then start loading magazines on the 45 till I reached the last bottle. The ground was rough and it was a long walk with 3 guns and extra magazines hanging on me but after the 3rd or 4th time pulling that drill I didn't leave many bottles standing. I got embarrassed at a PPC match doing that and decided never again. Like WC145 said it's a matter of timing, the rule was you couldn't pause so shooting when your lead foot was on the ground was critical.

First few times I went back and ran the course again because I had lots of targets left. By the time I started catching on I left very few behind me even when I switched guns and shot single action only. Hard part was going back with my garbage bags and picking everything up.

Fast forward 10 years and my back won't let me do that anymore but I still do it at home setting up from 3 yards to 30 yards and get my nephew to pick up after me. all it costs me is a box of 22 shells and the use of my rifle when I'm done.
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Old August 27, 2012, 05:39 PM   #10
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All good advice above. Get an Air Soft gun and set up targets in your garage or basement. Run some of these drills and see how you can do. To get to the next level take one of the many "Gun Fighting Courses" whose courses are listed elsewhere on The Firing Line. In these courses you will be running and gunning with your gun and ammo on multiple targets. These courses are run on 360 degree ranges with all guns loaded all the time and Safety as the number 1 area of concentration. Practice will let the area below the waist not influence the area above it. Running and gunning is one of the hardest processes to master, but you can get good at it.
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Old August 27, 2012, 06:01 PM   #11
Deaf Smith
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jp,

Just wondering..... do your bullets move forward?

If so, why do people advance while shooting at relatively close ranges? I mean the bullets do get there first, right?

I've shot lots of IDPA and been in classes where we had to move forward while shooting. Yes I learned the 'groucho' walk, among others, but I still doubt it's a good idea unless you are armored and they ain't.

Deaf
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Old August 27, 2012, 06:39 PM   #12
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If your only available cover is between you and the shooter then you might want to take temporary cover behind an accurate and effective wall of lead as you make your way to the real position of cover.
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Old August 27, 2012, 06:48 PM   #13
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Quote:
jp,

Just wondering..... do your bullets move forward?

If so, why do people advance while shooting at relatively close ranges? I mean the bullets do get there first, right?

I've shot lots of IDPA and been in classes where we had to move forward while shooting. Yes I learned the 'groucho' walk, among others, but I still doubt it's a good idea unless you are armored and they ain't.

Deaf
Not necessarily the preferred thing to do but it might be something you have to do. Can you envision any scenarios where this might happen?

Last edited by Striker1; August 27, 2012 at 07:11 PM.
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Old August 27, 2012, 08:12 PM   #14
jproaster
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I'm not gonna claim I understand the philosophy of gunfighting. But I must at least accept the idea that learning how to shoot on the move (in any direction) is wise. One can never know what skill is needed tomorrow.

I realize that seeking cover is very smart. I also realize someone might have to approach the surrendering party and one just doesnt know if Bobo's gonna o off the deep end right there and try to take you with him.

Just a thought.

Thanks all.

John
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Old August 27, 2012, 09:39 PM   #15
Deaf Smith
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Quote:
If your only available cover is between you and the shooter then you might want to take temporary cover behind an accurate and effective wall of lead as you make your way to the real position of cover.
Then run, don't walk, unless you are armored.

Deaf
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Old August 27, 2012, 10:07 PM   #16
MTSCMike
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OK...so...how about...

your wife is in line for ice cream at the county fair and you are waiting some distance away when you notice an evil-doer heading her way with a large Bowie knife. It's crowded and you want to close the distance to prevent collateral damage and hopefully get to her before he does but you can't and he lunges toward her slashing his knife and you must fire NOW to protect her?

I agree...far fetched

How about you are camping with your kids and see a pack of stray dogs approaching your youngest child in a "hunting/predatory" posture. You need to close the distance to dispatch the dogs without endangering your child and need to fire accurately somewhere along that forward path.

Yeah, that's a stretch too

How about you just practice shooting while advancing because you want to know you can do it if it ever became necessary. Yep, that will do.
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Old August 27, 2012, 10:07 PM   #17
Striker1
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Quote:
Then run, don't walk, unless you are armored.

Deaf

Expand your "what if" a little and see if you can discover a reason.
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Old August 27, 2012, 10:18 PM   #18
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You have an objective to get to you don't stop and wait for the boogerman to let you go there. You advance to get where you need to go and you make things hot for the boogerman while you are moving. He can't concentrate on shooting you if he is worried about getting a bullet hole in his face and if you are moving you are a harder target to hit. If you are shooting and moving you are a target damn hard to hit unless he can call artillery down on you.
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Old August 28, 2012, 05:42 AM   #19
WC145
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Here in Maine shooting while moving both forward and backwards is part of the LEO qualification courses.
We train on moving and shooting quite a bit, you never know when you might be clearing a room or advancing on someone and need to fire, or need to move to cover while firing. A little familiarity can go a long way towards putting rounds on target and it's always better to be accurate than not.
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Old August 28, 2012, 07:23 AM   #20
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Going on the offensive and closing the gap may be the only "cover" available.
Try it with Airsoft against a partner who does not know what you plan to do and see how well it works.
As to how--walk as fast as you can without your head bobbing.
And start slow and easy.

Last edited by MT 73; August 28, 2012 at 07:31 AM.
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