The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 26, 2012, 09:44 PM   #1
Gunnut17
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2012
Location: Earth
Posts: 394
Anyone Here Tried C.A.R.?

Hi, me again. I have been looking around the Internet, mostly youtube and Google searches, learning about a controversial, new-to-me shooting system, Center Axis Relock(C.A.R. for short.). From my somewhat excessive understanding of it, the system utilizes a unorthodox grip and stance to reduce recoil and possibly increase reload time and follow-up shots. The gun is canted any where from around 30 to 180 degrees, and the body is bladed towards the target, reducing the profile of the shooter, and apparently protecting the face. I have seen shooters accurately hitting out to 50 feet. I have even heard people saying the way the pistol is held makes pistol-punching and elbowing a really up-close threat a possibility.

More info on the system here.
Video documenting the grip itself here.

Anyway, my question is, has anyone tried this?
Did it feel any different than other stances?
Was recoil reduced?
Did you "adopt" the system for anything?
Et cetera.

I, personally, think this is going to eventually be my HD and maybe SD stance of choice, it works in vehicles, from cover, can be used with one hand, leaving the other free to open doors and stuff, makes reloads faster depending on the level of training, is fluid in the transition between stances, and allows for quick target acquisition and follow-up shots, which are all pretty important in a SD situation.

So, your thoughts?
__________________
________(====()_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-,
I_iiiii__/'''''''''[{]''''''''{_)_)_)_)_)_}========

"|Pistol calibers| all suck, so pick the one you shoot best."
Gunnut17 is offline  
Old August 27, 2012, 03:44 AM   #2
Bud Helms
Staff
 
Join Date: December 31, 1999
Location: Middle Georgia
Posts: 13,003
Moving to T&T.
__________________
"The irony of the Information Age is that it has given new respectability to uninformed opinion." - John Lawton, speaking to the American Association of Broadcast Journalists in 1995
Bud Helms is offline  
Old August 27, 2012, 04:41 PM   #3
Ben Towe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 6, 2009
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 1,120
Guy standing downrange in first video=Dumb. Don't try that at home kids.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
Ben Towe is offline  
Old August 27, 2012, 04:49 PM   #4
g.willikers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 5,147
Canting the gun about half that much does help with controlling the gun when shooting one handed.
Don't know about it being needed two handed.
One drawback to canting the gun is the sights and point of impact will be to the left on the target.
__________________
Lock the doors, they're coming in the windows.
g.willikers is offline  
Old August 27, 2012, 10:34 PM   #5
Gunnut17
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2012
Location: Earth
Posts: 394
Quote:
Canting the gun about half that much does help with controlling the gun when shooting one handed.
Don't know about it being needed two handed.
One drawback to canting the gun is the sights and point of impact will be to the left on the target.
The cant isn't neccessary, but it is supposed to help with the recoil, as well as be more natural of a grip, and this guy even said in an earlier video that he was basing his grip off of other Youtube videos. And, although I am not sure, I am pretty sure that in the high position, based on how the gun hand is across the torso , some of the recoil could be absorbed by the torso if you held the gun arm against yourself. As far as your comment about the sights and POM being to the left of the target, the eye opposite to the shooting hand is the one you sight with, so you will still be able to use the sights and get the result you should expect, especially at the ranges this is meant to be used at, around 1-10 yds.

Why does everyone ridicule CAR? It's not like Weaver, Isoceles, and Chapman are all perfect, the Car system does too, but the biggest one, the lack of really good long range accuracy, can easily be overcome through plenty of training. And without that one thing really in the way, getting past it makes the system inherently superior to traditional stances, IMO.

And above all else, this was just asking if anyone had tried it, not if you thought it was stupid or idiotic or any other negative adjective you can think of. And I bet the one who I quoted, based on the way he worded his post, has not even tried it.
__________________
________(====()_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-,
I_iiiii__/'''''''''[{]''''''''{_)_)_)_)_)_}========

"|Pistol calibers| all suck, so pick the one you shoot best."
Gunnut17 is offline  
Old August 28, 2012, 07:34 AM   #6
MT 73
Member
 
Join Date: August 17, 2011
Posts: 25
Tried it, learning it from a certified C.A.R. instructor a few years back.
Also spoke a bit with Paul Castle.
Has some good applications, but seemed unnatural without any major advantages to how I already shoot.
In my opinion not worth the effort to learn.
MT 73 is offline  
Old August 28, 2012, 06:06 PM   #7
dawg23
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2001
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 401
Quote:
And above all else, this was just asking if anyone had tried it, not if you thought it was stupid or idiotic or any other negative adjective you can think of. And I bet the one who I quoted, based on the way he worded his post, has not even tried it.
1. For someone who is "just asking," you sure seem evangelical about it.

2. This topic pops up on every gun board every 12-18 months. "Nothing new, nothing worth adopting" is usually the consensus.

3. If you're truly looking for information, there are plenty of previous threads here and elsewhere that discuss this technique in detail.
__________________
.
www.PersonalDefenseTraining.net
dawg23 is offline  
Old August 28, 2012, 06:50 PM   #8
sigcurious
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 2011
Posts: 1,755
Linky

Some more info on the CAR system to look at GN17.
sigcurious is offline  
Old August 28, 2012, 08:46 PM   #9
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 1,691
I don't think so.

It does nothing better than what I do now.

It seems silly to adopt a shooting stance that works maybe as well as any traditional method (once you master it), but then it sucks for any type of accuracy. A proper grip and technique will mitigate recoil as well.
__________________
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old September 4, 2012, 06:28 PM   #10
johnbt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 1999
Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
Posts: 6,004
"Anyway, my question is, has anyone tried this?"

Here's a TFL discussion from 2002.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113113
johnbt is offline  
Old September 4, 2012, 08:54 PM   #11
RamItOne
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 24, 2011
Posts: 983
I'll try it next time I'm at the range. It'll give me something new to do thanks

Why were they impressed with his accuracy? I shoot 6" plates at 25-30 yards and generally clean 15/18 ( 3 rounds with 6 plates) and I'm sure there's a ton more on this board that can do better.
RamItOne is offline  
Old September 5, 2012, 01:41 AM   #12
Gunnut17
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2012
Location: Earth
Posts: 394
Quote:
It seems silly to adopt a shooting stance that works maybe as well as any traditional method (once you master it), but then it sucks for any type of accuracy. A proper grip and technique will mitigate recoil as well.
I said that it can maybe be as accurate as other techniques, not that it maybe is as good everywhere. Read before you post.

And it works maybe better than others at other things, shooting from cover, really close quarters, and quick target engagement and disengagement are examples.
__________________
________(====()_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-,
I_iiiii__/'''''''''[{]''''''''{_)_)_)_)_)_}========

"|Pistol calibers| all suck, so pick the one you shoot best."
Gunnut17 is offline  
Old September 5, 2012, 02:13 PM   #13
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Gunnut17, you say this all because you've done what you claim it can do, or because you read it somewhere or saw some guy on YouTube?

You're asking for inputs from people who've been shooting for decades, and then talking down to us when you don't like our answers.

FWIW, 50ft being towards the outer limit for accuracy brings up two questions:

1) Why would anybody use this method on a target 50 feet away? and

2) Who thinks 50 feet is a long shot (with regard to difficulty from their normal stances)?
MLeake is offline  
Old September 6, 2012, 12:15 AM   #14
Gunnut17
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2012
Location: Earth
Posts: 394
Quote:
Gunnut17, you say this all because you've done what you claim it can do, or because you read it somewhere or saw some guy on YouTube?

You're asking for inputs from people who've been shooting for decades, and then talking down to us when you don't like our answers.

FWIW, 50ft being towards the outer limit for accuracy brings up two questions:

1) Why would anybody use this method on a target 50 feet away? and

2) Who thinks 50 feet is a long shot (with regard to difficulty from their normal stances)?
I did not ask for input, I asked if anyone had tried it. And how was I talking "down" on anyone? If you don't mind me asking.

1) Not many would be willing to, it is just that guys way of showing that it doesn't suck for any kind of accuracy, as Nanuk put it. Most think that CAR is only for really close range.

2) Not many do that either, it is still just a way of saying that CAR is good for something other than distances where you are sharing air with the other guy. And for a bunch of guys who may have expected the holes to be in the backstop, it was a long shot.
__________________
________(====()_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-,
I_iiiii__/'''''''''[{]''''''''{_)_)_)_)_)_}========

"|Pistol calibers| all suck, so pick the one you shoot best."
Gunnut17 is offline  
Old September 6, 2012, 12:32 AM   #15
sigcurious
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 2011
Posts: 1,755
Quote:
Hi, me again. I have been looking around the Internet, mostly youtube and Google searches, learning about a controversial, new-to-me shooting system, Center Axis Relock(C.A.R. for short.). From my somewhat excessive understanding of it, the system utilizes a unorthodox grip and stance to reduce recoil and possibly increase reload time and follow-up shots. The gun is canted any where from around 30 to 180 degrees, and the body is bladed towards the target, reducing the profile of the shooter, and apparently protecting the face. I have seen shooters accurately hitting out to 50 feet. I have even heard people saying the way the pistol is held makes pistol-punching and elbowing a really up-close threat a possibility.

More info on the system here.
Video documenting the grip itself here.

Anyway, my question is, has anyone tried this?
Did it feel any different than other stances?
Was recoil reduced?
Did you "adopt" the system for anything?
Et cetera.

I, personally, think this is going to eventually be my HD and maybe SD stance of choice, it works in vehicles, from cover, can be used with one hand, leaving the other free to open doors and stuff, makes reloads faster depending on the level of training, is fluid in the transition between stances, and allows for quick target acquisition and follow-up shots, which are all pretty important in a SD situation.

So, your thoughts?
Emphases added

I would guess since you stated you have an excessive understanding of the system without having tried it, pitched your own thoughts based on not having tried it, and then asked for peoples thoughts, that you asked for input beyond just those that have tried it.

Whether or not CAR has merits as a system, I think it has low potential to become widespread with the founder of the system being dead.
sigcurious is offline  
Old September 6, 2012, 02:57 AM   #16
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
+1 sigcurious
MLeake is offline  
Old September 6, 2012, 08:01 AM   #17
Gunnut17
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2012
Location: Earth
Posts: 394
Quote:
Emphases added

I would guess since you stated you have an excessive understanding of the system without having tried it, pitched your own thoughts based on not having tried it, and then asked for peoples thoughts, that you asked for input beyond just those that have tried it.

Whether or not CAR has merits as a system, I think it has low potential to become widespread with the founder of the system being dead.
That was a bad choice of words, I had asked the questions I meant to before I was finished talking, and felt the need to redirect anyone who read back to the original intent of the thread, answering the question(s) I asked.

[Rant mode: on]

Look, I get that I may have offended or annoyed some people, But do you expect me not to take offense to Nanuk calling it "silly", which is a slightly nicer way of saying "stupid"? It seems a little like a double standard, if you ask me, which you won't, because I apparently cannot express my opinion.

[Rant mode: off]

Would whoever is a moderator for this forum close this please? It's beyond repair, and in the mean time I will consider finding a new place on the internet to stay.
__________________
________(====()_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-,
I_iiiii__/'''''''''[{]''''''''{_)_)_)_)_)_}========

"|Pistol calibers| all suck, so pick the one you shoot best."
Gunnut17 is offline  
Old September 6, 2012, 10:42 AM   #18
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,701
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunnut17
...I, personally, think this is going to eventually be my HD and maybe SD stance of choice,...
I think before making that kind of a decision, you'd do well to get some good training in the fundamentals and more traditional techniques. Whatever and however you might choose to shoot, a solid foundation will be a big help.

I'm not so sure that the thread is beyond repair. What I see here is that a bunch of folks are skeptical. So am I.

Since the OP asked for "thoughts", here are a few of my "off the top of my head" thoughts:
  • I'm skeptical of system that seems to rely too much on a very specific body orientation. If one's interest is in defensive handgun, nasty events take place in three dimensions, so one must he somewhat flexible. One great benefit from USPSA/IDPA competition as a learning/practice tool is that it can force one to shoot from unconventional position.

    Both the Weaver and Modern Isosceles rely primarily on upper body orientation and allow considerable flexibility in foot position.

  • Accuracy is primarily a function of trigger control, not stance. If you have good trigger control, you can get good hits standing, sitting, on your knees, on your belly, on one foot, with one hand, etc.

    The primary function of stance with both the Weaver and the Modern Isosceles is recoil management.

  • The extreme bladed posture is strong front-to-back, but less stable side-to-side. A less bladed posture (say from 30 to 60 degrees) offers more flexibility. It is stable in more directions, allows a range of turning motion and is better suited to movement and a more dynamic response.

  • Watching the videos, I didn't see anyone performing better than I've seen shooters perform using Weaver or Modern Isosceles.

    And I'm sorry the video showing the speed shooting and speed reloads for time didn't also show the hits. The times (mid-four seconds for six shots with tow reloads) could be impressive, but only if the shooter was getting good hits.

    On the other hand, I've seen quite a few eight to ten second El Presidentes (twelve shots over three targets at ten yards, albeit with only one reload but starting facing up range with a holstered gun) with all "A" zone hits (or maybe dropping one or two points).

  • All that said, I think one should know and practice a variety of stances and be able to use what might be best in particular circumstance. There's no reason why C. A. R. shouldn't be in someone's toolbox. But it's just not a final answer.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old September 6, 2012, 11:28 AM   #19
zombietactics
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 7, 2012
Location: Northern California
Posts: 336
A lot of C.A.R. seems to be designed around specific, but fairly common problems encountered by LE. The stance is similar to "field interview" position, for instance. If one trains left/right well enough, it appears to be an excellent tool for rounding corners as well. It certainly provides some retention advantages also.

This isn't surprising since Paul Castle was quite focused upon improving the survival rate of officers in the field. Not everything in C.A.R. has a ready application for those acting in citizen-self-defense or military applications.

As such it provides an excellent tool for some things, but it's not the final word on anything.
zombietactics is offline  
Old September 6, 2012, 05:01 PM   #20
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 1,691
Quote:
I said that it can maybe be as accurate as other techniques, not that it maybe is as good everywhere. Read before you post.

And it works maybe better than others at other things, shooting from cover, really close quarters, and quick target engagement and disengagement are examples.
I did read, I also watched the video, so by internet standards that makes me an expert.

It may offer advantages, it may not. Shooting from cover? No, you do not crowd cover, its a good way to get hurt. Really close quarters/retention, realistically? No, for that you will have more control keeping the gun lower closer to your midline.

You ever make it to the upper midwest we can go to the range and see.
__________________
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old September 6, 2012, 09:40 PM   #21
Gunnut17
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2012
Location: Earth
Posts: 394
Quote:
No, for that you will have more control keeping the gun lower closer to your midline.
I know, that is what the high, AKA retention, position is for, almost no one on Youtube seems to get that there is such a thing, confusing it with the combat high.

Same grip, minus the cant and a few inches away from the chest. gun hand elbow at 90 degree angle, other one at it's own 90 degree, elbow and forearm tucked against your side, out of the line of fire. Sighting is replaced with better judgement, most often you see someone double tapping the torso, then shooting twice at the head, using the point of impact to help yourself know where to shoot.
__________________
________(====()_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-,
I_iiiii__/'''''''''[{]''''''''{_)_)_)_)_)_}========

"|Pistol calibers| all suck, so pick the one you shoot best."

Last edited by Frank Ettin; September 6, 2012 at 10:25 PM. Reason: remove snark
Gunnut17 is offline  
Old September 6, 2012, 09:50 PM   #22
sigcurious
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 2011
Posts: 1,755
GN17, how many CAR classes have you taken?
sigcurious is offline  
Old September 6, 2012, 09:52 PM   #23
tlm225
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 21, 2004
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 661
I don't know how to say this without offending you but I'll try.

Many years ago CAR was the hot new technique. Our state law enforcement academy incorporated it into the basic academy course and sent instructors out to train officers at various agencies who had already completed the academy. I tried it myself.

It lasted less than a year before it was dropped. The only time I hear it mentioned now is on the internet.

Draw your own conclusions.
__________________
All that is neccessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
Edmund Burke
tlm225 is offline  
Old September 6, 2012, 10:13 PM   #24
Gunnut17
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2012
Location: Earth
Posts: 394
Sigcurious, why don't you try and get into and afford to pay for training in a technique that almost no one has been trained in, at 13 years of age, with an allowance of $2 every two weeks.

Then come up with realistic expectations of my age group, and get back to me then.
__________________
________(====()_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-,
I_iiiii__/'''''''''[{]''''''''{_)_)_)_)_)_}========

"|Pistol calibers| all suck, so pick the one you shoot best."
Gunnut17 is offline  
Old September 6, 2012, 10:24 PM   #25
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,701
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunnut17
...retention, position is for, almost no one on Youtube seems to get that there is such a thing,...
YouTube is not a particularly good source for firearms instruction or information. There are a few decent, even good, videos -- some of the videos with Todd Jarrett and those done by some of the Gunsite instructors come immediately to mind. But there is also an enormous amount of unmitigated garbage on YouTube.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunnut17
...Same grip, minus the cant and a few inches away from the chest. gun hand elbow at 90 degree angle, other one at it's own 90 degree, elbow and forearm tucked against your side, out of the line of fire. Sighting is replaced with better judgement, most often you see someone double tapping the torso, then shooting twice at the head, using the point of impact to help yourself know where to shoot.....
No, that is not how it's done. How do I know? We did shooting from retention drills in a class I took put on by Louis Awerbuck and then again in a class I took at Gunsite.

GN17, we understand that you're enthusiastic. And that's very good. But we also understand that you're short on actual training and experience. On the other hand, many folks here do have quite a bit of training and experience, and this is a fine opportunity to learn a few things. I urge you to take advantage of that opportunity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunnut17
...why don't you try and get into and afford to pay for training in a technique that almost no one has been trained in, at 13 years of age, with an allowance of $2 every two weeks...
We do understand your situation. And we were all 13 once too. Someday, we hope, you'll get a chance to do this for real. In the meantime, understand and accept that there are things you don't know and haven't done, but that many of us know and have done. Take the opportunity to learn.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:31 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14417 seconds with 9 queries