The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 21, 2012, 11:16 AM   #1
Marquezj16
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 3, 2011
Posts: 2,088
Run, Hide, Fight

I thought I would share this. They teach "what to do" during an active shooter event.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VcSw...layer_embedded
Marquezj16 is offline  
Old August 21, 2012, 01:10 PM   #2
Wyosmith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2010
Location: Shoshoni Wyoming
Posts: 1,228
Well the people who made this video are either unaware of the facts and the truth--- or they are being motivated by the P.C. climate of today.

However the facts show their order is in error.

Run, hide, fight should be Fight/Hide and run. In that order.

Now I know this is probably going to attract opinions from a lot of readers but the FACTS are pretty conclusive.

In EVERY case of an "active shooter attack" (and in nearly every case of a madman attacking people with weapons other than firearms) in which 4 or more people attacked the criminal within the first 1-2 minutes the criminal was subdued and/or killed.
When that happens the media either ignores it or gives it a pass-by so short most people don’t notice and few remember.

These facts are conclusive and are compiled from hundreds of cases gathered from over 20 countries and spans a time period of over 50 years.

In EVERY case of what we now call "active shooter" where 4 or more people attacked their assailant the people won. EVERY CASE!

In every case where people hid or ran the loss of life was much higher and the activity lasted for anywhere from 10 minutes to 7 days. (Hostage situations)

ATTACK should ALWAYS be the first response to an active shooter if there is ANY way to close with the shooter and get hold of the weapon. One on one you have perhaps a 30% chance of winning. Two on one you have about a 70% chance. Three on one your chances are close to 100% that the shooter will be subdued. The reason I lumped Hide and Fight together is simply that in most cases the ground is more familiar to the victims than it is to the shooter and an ambush is often the very best way to counterattack.

I cannot help but notice how the very idea of having handguns in large numbers, carried concealed by the victims in this dramatization was avoided altogether.
If such an incident were real and one or 2 people got hold of the shooters gun when a few more could use their guns in a contact shooting mode, the incident would last only a few seconds.
But………….The PC crowd strakes again.
Wyosmith is offline  
Old August 21, 2012, 02:06 PM   #3
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,658
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyosmith
...In EVERY case of an "active shooter attack" (and in nearly every case of a madman attacking people with weapons other than firearms) in which 4 or more people attacked the criminal within the first 1-2 minutes the criminal was subdued and/or killed.
When that happens the media either ignores it or gives it a pass-by so short most people don’t notice and few remember...
Then please provide evidence/documentation/sources validating this claim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyosmith
...These facts are conclusive and are compiled from hundreds of cases gathered from over 20 countries and spans a time period of over 50 years...
Then provide sources and establish that the sources are valid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyosmith
...In EVERY case of what we now call "active shooter" where 4 or more people attacked their assailant the people won. EVERY CASE..
Again, provide evidence, documentation and sources.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you that in some cases a more aggressive defense would be a better idea. But you are claiming certain specific things are "facts". They are not, however, facts just because you say they are. You must prove them. As Carl Sagan said, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old August 21, 2012, 02:27 PM   #4
aarondhgraham
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 2009
Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma
Posts: 7,069
What else are they going to say,,,

What else are they going to say,,,
This video was put out by a Mayors office.

In all seriousness,,,
Do we think they could promote any other actions?

We all hail heroic people who stand and fight rather than run,,,
But for a Mayors office to actually advocate that would be against accepted public policy.

I hear and feel where you are coming from Wyosmith,,,
But realistically no current political entity will ever advocate fighting first.

I feel this video advocates the actions that most people will do anyways,,,
Perhaps it is wisest to encourage and teach the behavior that is already the most likely to occur.

I really do not know what is best,,,
But I can't in good conscience condemn this video.

If I am suddenly in harms way,,,
And I have no weapon to fight back with,,,
You better believe that I'm gonna be running like lightning.

Aarond

.
__________________
Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once.
Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it?
Combat: "A Silent Cry"
Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)

Last edited by aarondhgraham; August 22, 2012 at 07:47 AM.
aarondhgraham is offline  
Old August 21, 2012, 02:38 PM   #5
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,640
It depends on the configuration of the attack locale. In close quarters, rampage shooters have been tackled. In incidents with space, tacklers have been shot dead.

There are no generalizations that are useful as the way to respond.

You need to have knowledge and skills to able to evaluate the particulars.

Run has worked for some. Hiding has worked for some. Playing dead has worked for some. Fighting has worked for some.

Barricades have and have not not worked for some.

The optimal response is to allow folks to carry firearms. That said - it is your moral responsibility to have the training to be able to use it efficaciously in a stressful critical incident. We need to avoid the bluster of some after a critical incident. We certainly don't need a friendly fire horror during a rampage.

We have successful firearms interventions and we have some where the intervener may have saved lives but because of failed will or tactics came to ill.

There are no certain outcomes.

Last, do not be fooled by the small number fallacy. Well known in decision making. We do not have large enough samples to make a reasonable probability statement. Because at place X, something happened is too close to chance variation.

My problem with such videos is that the fight scenario is used to argue against gun carry as you can take down the guy with a charge of the staplers and laptop of death projectiles. Perhaps, but you are not getting through Mumbai or Aurora with your stapler or gung fu. Not all rampages are close quarter let's tackle him scenarios. A well thought out Aurora attack will negative that.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old August 21, 2012, 04:25 PM   #6
Marquezj16
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 3, 2011
Posts: 2,088
As I was cleaning a couple of pistols, a few questions came to me.

What if you were armed and in an active shooter situation?
Would you actively try to engage the shooter?
How would you respond?
Marquezj16 is offline  
Old August 21, 2012, 04:34 PM   #7
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,658
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marquezj16
...What if you were armed and in an active shooter situation?
Would you actively try to engage the shooter?
How would you respond?
See Glenn's post 5. There is absolutely no way to properly respond to your question. It entirely depends on the exact circumstances.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old August 21, 2012, 04:58 PM   #8
PawPaw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2010
Location: Central Louisiana
Posts: 3,108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marquezj16
What if you were armed and in an active shooter situation?
Would you actively try to engage the shooter?
How would you respond?
It's my job to train on these scenarios and to pray to a forgiving God that I never have to use my training. So, with the distilled knowledge of my instructors, here goes. I am a resource officer in a local high school, with 10 years in this duty assignment. Our training over the years has changed, with increased study of the active shooter phenomena.

My job is to locate, engage, and neutralize the shooter. I can do this through one of two ways. Either by killing him, or pushing him into a place where he can't harm innocents. It's my job to maneuver against him and bring fire upon him; to take his focus off the innocents and to bring it on to myself. If I'm lucky enough, and good enough, the tactical problem will be over before the SWAT team gets there.

If he goes to ground and barricades himself somewhere in the building, it becomes a barricaded shooter scenario. I'm going to hold him there until the cavalry arrives. In short, if he's not actively shooting, he's not an active shooter. I'll wait till help gets there before I go charging in.

Our training shows that, generally, an active shooter believes that he's in a firearm-free zone, and he's the only one there that has a gun. Having someone lob bullets at him disrupts his plan and allows the innocents a chance at retreat. The best plan, from my perspective, is to violently close with him and take him out before he can fulfill his plan.

There is some evidence that the best course of action (from a citizen standpoint) is to attack the shooter. Disrupt his plan. Make him change his attack. If you're unarmed, this is heroic and not everyone is built to do this. I won't judge anyone who runs and hides during an active shooting scenario.

In broad, general terms, I think that the film is accurate and reasonably presented.

If you want to read more about actual lessons learned, go to the Hard Tactics Blog. They've got some good research there.
__________________
Dennis Dezendorf

http://pawpawshouse.blogspot.com
PawPaw is offline  
Old August 21, 2012, 05:02 PM   #9
Marquezj16
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 3, 2011
Posts: 2,088
Quote:
It entirely depends on the exact circumstances.
Ok, using the scenario on the video. You are at work in a public building full of coworkers. You have your CCW with you. How do you respond?

I'll give an example. A hotel in Kabul used by UN workers was assaulted by enemies of Afghanistan. An armed man used his weapon to slow down the attackers while aiding others to escape.
Marquezj16 is offline  
Old August 21, 2012, 05:14 PM   #10
PawPaw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2010
Location: Central Louisiana
Posts: 3,108
Oops, double post. Sorry.
__________________
Dennis Dezendorf

http://pawpawshouse.blogspot.com
PawPaw is offline  
Old August 21, 2012, 07:07 PM   #11
9mm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2011
Location: Land of the Free
Posts: 2,711
Quote:
They teach "what to do" during an active shooter event.
Promote 2nd Amendment, stop gun free zones, allow work carry, [armed zone].
__________________
See user title
9mm is offline  
Old August 21, 2012, 07:18 PM   #12
BGutzman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2009
Location: Frozen Tundra
Posts: 2,414
Stupid video.... #1 in almost any situation is situational awareness... It does no good to run if you run into the BG... Hiding only works until you give yourself away or the shooter notices you...

People tend to panic and all chaos breaks out... Situational awareness, prior planning and calm but quick action are a good start..

Running might also mean a boy in blue thinks your a threat if you suprise the officer... shouldnt be but it might be fatal....
__________________
Molon Labe
BGutzman is offline  
Old August 21, 2012, 07:53 PM   #13
oldgranpa
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 5, 2006
Location: Alabama
Posts: 209
A lot of this comes from the old 1998 "Rules" started by Firearms Tactical....

http://www.firearmstactical.com/index.htm
see rule 3 for concealed carry.

As most have said it depends on the circumstances and running away may only get you shot in the back if you can't "run away". If in a parking lot it might be best to "hide" behind a car first. Just my opinions like everybodys. Who know what might happen??

og....hoping it never happens!
oldgranpa is offline  
Old August 21, 2012, 08:39 PM   #14
9mm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2011
Location: Land of the Free
Posts: 2,711
Someone should make a video like this[what to do if], then show a CCW holder pull his peice and showing the bad guy giving up.
__________________
See user title
9mm is offline  
Old August 21, 2012, 09:06 PM   #15
Smit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 18, 2012
Posts: 335
Proper order: (if you are an unarmed innocent, which in most cases is the situation)

1. Run
2. Hide
3. Call 911, give description of shooter (clothing, ethnicity, etc.)
4. Lock/Barricade the door, turn off cell phone.
5. Wait for the police.

-If first aid certified, help wounded WITHOUT jeopordizing your saefty.
__________________
"Vegetarian, an old Indian word for bad hunter."
Smit is offline  
Old August 21, 2012, 09:35 PM   #16
ltc444
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 3, 2011
Location: Vernon AZ
Posts: 1,195
As Murphy said: No plan survives the first contact intact.

Every incident is different. You do what it takes to survive.
ltc444 is offline  
Old August 21, 2012, 09:42 PM   #17
Marquezj16
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 3, 2011
Posts: 2,088
As a medic, I am a first responder. However my job does not begin until the scene is secure.

My work is a gun free zone. Our response is to evacuate if in immediate area. If not in immedicate area, then lockdown your section by locking doors or barricading, turning off the lights. Fight only if in immediate danger. It's how we train.

If off duty and I am at a public place, I will secure my immediate area, aid others to escape, and if in immediate area of shooter I will do my best to neutralize the shooter.

Seriously, a lot of things could go wrong, however it's not going to stop me from trying to do what I can.
Marquezj16 is offline  
Old August 21, 2012, 11:48 PM   #18
Lost Sheep
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2009
Location: Anchorage Alaska
Posts: 2,986
Quote:
Originally Posted by ltc444
As Murphy said: No plan survives the first contact intact.
Murphy may have codified the general principle of things that go wrong, but the author of the particular quote is (was) Field Marshall Helmuth von Moltke (the Elder).


Chance favors only the prepared mind. (Louis Pasteur) Good to keep in mind when you are preparing your defensive plan.

When the everyone around you is losing their heads, having a plan that was good before first contact is far superior to having none. Prepare, train, perform.

Lost Sheep

Last edited by Lost Sheep; August 21, 2012 at 11:59 PM.
Lost Sheep is offline  
Old August 22, 2012, 10:29 AM   #19
jnichols2
Member
 
Join Date: April 26, 2012
Posts: 90
The ONLY action that can always be listed first is:

1. Assess the situation (Do this quickly)

ALL other actions will stem from the assessment of the situation.
jnichols2 is online now  
Old August 22, 2012, 06:15 PM   #20
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 3,236
I'd rather go by the FOUR Fs....

Find 'em, Fix 'em, Fight 'em, and Finish 'em.

After all THIS IS SPAR... I mean THIS IS TEXAS.

Deaf
__________________
"The government has confiscated all of our rights and is selling them back to us in the form of permits."
Deaf Smith is offline  
Old August 22, 2012, 06:55 PM   #21
rgrundy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 29, 2012
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 188
Watching this video really makes me happy that my employer encourages us to carry and most of us do. I would hate to have to let someone kill me at his leisure.
rgrundy is offline  
Old August 23, 2012, 12:10 AM   #22
Mr. James
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2001
Location: The Old Dominion
Posts: 1,521
Deaf Smith,

I work in a federal facility in downtown Washington, DC. I've pondered this type of thing and prayerfully considered it. I've come to this conclusion. After I've helped as many folks out as I can, I'm going after the bastard, most likely armed with nothing more than a baseball bat. So be it.

That's my personal decision, and I don't for a moment question anyone else's.
__________________
"...A humble and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." Ps. li

"When law and morality contradict each other, the citizen has the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense or losing his respect for the law." —Frederic Bastiat
Mr. James is offline  
Old August 24, 2012, 06:33 PM   #23
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 3,236
James,

I saw the movie at the ERT, our Emergency Response Team, meeting just yesterday (we do HAZMAT not SWAT!)

Funny thing was the nutjob on the movie open the door to the building and what was on the door? The TEXAS 30.06 sign! Yes 'no concealed handguns allowed'.

I almost died laughing as I pointed out to the other guys (and gals) it was a 'gun free' zone!

Now about that baseball bat. Came to the conclusion one needs to find a makeshift bat NOW, while nothing is happening, and know how to get a hold of it. Be it a mop handle, leg of a table, old rusty pipe, OR BIG WRENCH kept in the cleaning closet (you might even get away with putting such a pipe in it now, before anything happens...)

And then find some bait.

Bait you say? Well a fellow co-worker that would look like a good target for the nutjob and use them to attract the nut toward the corder of the hall you are hiding behind!

Cold it is... but come-along games have been used throughout history to ambush stronger enemies.

Deaf
__________________
"The government has confiscated all of our rights and is selling them back to us in the form of permits."
Deaf Smith is offline  
Old August 24, 2012, 06:39 PM   #24
Skimp
Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2012
Posts: 62
If there is a shooting going on, I am out the nearest door.
Skimp is offline  
Old August 26, 2012, 09:35 AM   #25
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,798
active shooter incidents; EDPs...

I read over a few topic posts but didn't watch the video yet.
As for the "what would you do" question, I(as a concealed carry license holder or armed-licensed security officer) would take a few things into account;
what type of weapon(s) are involved, how many armed-violent subjects are there(some may be "hidden" or act as "seeded back-up", a common method of bank robberies), having an "ave of escape" or way to flee may be needed too.
You may think you're LT John McClaine or Chuck Norris, but if I saw a subject pulling out a LAW rocket or M249 machine gun, I'd beat cheecks.
Being able to deal with edged weapons, clubs-sticks or bats is important too.

Many years ago, a female MP in my unit told me how she had to shoot a EDP(emotional-disturbed person) who charged at her with a baseball bat. She was working alone at a small post near a urban area. About a year ago, I had a event where a unstable subject with a large stick threatened me while I was working on a hotel security detail. The convicted felon had a long history of mental illness & violent crime. He is now in state prison.

CF
ClydeFrog is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13516 seconds with 9 queries