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Old August 24, 2012, 12:46 PM   #26
zukiphile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manta49
Their is exercising your rights and having a bit of common sense.
How would you change the common sense (the sense of the community) of what behaviors are normal, not to be viewed with alarm and suspicion, without engaging in them?
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Old August 24, 2012, 01:29 PM   #27
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Quote. How would you change the common sense (the sense of the community) of what behaviors are normal, not to be viewed with alarm and suspicion, without engaging in them.

You find it strange that some people might be alarmed seeing someone walking down the street carrying a mp5. If you have the right to conceal a firearm why would you carry it openly. They were doing it deliberately to provoke a reaction and were disappointed when the officer acted professionally. PS I don't think stunts like that do anything to help the open carry cause.
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Old August 24, 2012, 02:25 PM   #28
zukiphile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manta49
You find it strange that some people might be alarmed seeing someone walking down the street carrying a mp5.
No, I find it predictable, but unfortunate. That a person is armed should not, in itself, alarm anyone. In fact, we see LEOs armed routinely, and this doesn't cause alarm. We are accustomed to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manta49
If you have the right to conceal a firearm why would you carry it openly.
Difficulty in concealment is a common reason. I've been stopped with a .22 rifle on my shoulder. I think it might have been more alarming if I tried to conceal it under my clothing.

Why don't POs conceal their arms?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manta49
They were doing it deliberately to provoke a reaction ...
I agree. The PO was responding to a complaint. The complaint is the problemmatic action.

How would you change the common sense (the sense of the community) of what behaviors are normal, not to be viewed with alarm and suspicion, without engaging in them?
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Old August 24, 2012, 03:08 PM   #29
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I agree with the general premise that an armed person should not cause alarm. However, there's a spectrum of what random people know about firearms. And I would suspect that most people who see a MP5 clone associates that image with a select fire weapon. There's a difference in cops being called on someone OC'ing a handgun, which they have no lawful reason to question, and in this case someone OC'ing something that they do have lawful reason(specifically in this case in OR) to stop the person.

OC activism definitely takes different flavors. I cannot categorically say that people who go looking for encounters with LEO are silly, but I would say that in most cases it brings attention to the cause in negative manner and does not serve the greater good. It's one thing to go about your business while OC'ing and have a recording device, it's another to go out specifically looking for an encounter.

I would be very surprised if the person making the film didn't think that the general perception would be that he was carrying a select fire weapon, and chose that specific model to attract attention.

I do regard situations with suspicion when I see LEO carrying something other than their pistols(whether it be rifle, shotgun or sub machine gun). Why? Because in most cases, they have them out for a reason, and that reason usually involves me not wanting to be in the area.
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Old August 24, 2012, 03:09 PM   #30
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A lot of what say makes sense. I don't know how you change the the communities attitude to firearms. I don't think stunts like the one in the video help.

PS. Reminds me of a innocent happened to me 20 years ago in N Ireland. I was walking home after doing some shooting near my home i was carrying a air rifle with a telescopic sight on it. A army patrol pasted me in a jeep i heard the jeep stopping and the words stop or i will shoot. As you can imagine that stopped me in my track's the police were called and the mater cleared up. After that even tough i had the right to carry in the open when going shooting i thought putting it in a cover might make more sense.
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Old August 24, 2012, 03:12 PM   #31
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manta49
Their is exercising your rights and having a bit of common sense.

How would you change the common sense (the sense of the community) of what behaviors are normal, not to be viewed with alarm and suspicion, without engaging in them?
Wandering around with a wannabe machine gun is looking for a fight. Sorry but thats the truth of it. Unless you're to or from a range, its looking for a confrontation and you know it. Careful, you just might get one.

I'm not trying to be an ass or someone with a chip on my shoulder. But, after having lived in CA and now in Texas where drug gangs exist I'm not think Captain Derp Derp Youtube. I'm thinking cartel guy.
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Old August 24, 2012, 03:14 PM   #32
zincwarrior
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Quote:
A lot of what say makes sense. I don't know how you change the the communities attitude to firearms. I don't think stunts like the one in the video help.

PS. Reminds me of a innocent happened to me 20 years ago in N Ireland. I was walking home after doing some shooting near my home i was carrying a air rifle with a telescopic sight on it. A army patrol pasted me in a jeep i heard the jeep stopping and the words stop or i will shoot. As you can imagine that stopped me in my track's the police were called and the mater cleared up. After that even tough i had the right to carry in the open when going shooting i thought putting it in a cover might make more sense.
There you go. I've seen countless timespeople loading up long guns in the vehicle in a bag or otherwise clearly going to the range/hunting. Thats not a big deal. Some dude wandering down the neighborhood? No good comes from that.
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Old August 24, 2012, 04:43 PM   #33
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And yet I know more than a handful of Texans who wouldn't think twice about openly carrying their hog-hunting rifles, which might well be ARs, AKs, or Mini-14 types. Your neighbors could have a whole bunch of legal problems, Zincwarrior, if they just decided to open up on them.

(My friends are pretty good shots, too, so your neighbors might never actually still be around to have legal problems, in such an instance.)

Acting on incomplete information, and attacking somebody who hasn't broken a law, let alone provided a credible threat, is not smart.

(Edit: My friends wouldn't be walking down a city street with such. They might well walk out to their vehicles in a suburban area, carrying them, though.)
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Old August 24, 2012, 05:49 PM   #34
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first off- kudos to officer Nork for handling that situation the way he did. im big on gun rights but im glad that he stopped someone walkin down the road carryin that. (as long as he handled it the way he did). that could have been more then just some idiots tryin to educate officers in the constitution.

having said that. i am not for police stopping people just for open carrying. but a guy walkin down the street with what looks like an MP-5 should be stopped imo.

stunts like this imho are bad for us pro gun/ pro constitutionalists. they make us seem cocky and extremists which will make the public scared of us and guns instead of curious and interested in firearms.

I understand that alot of police officers need to learn the laws and the rights that us citizens have but there is a better way to do that then deliberately trying to stir up a confrontation.
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Old August 24, 2012, 05:51 PM   #35
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In a perfect world it shouldnt matter if people are offended or not, a right is a right.. In reality it matters alot.... It will remain so until SCOTUS finally spells it all out as a civil right.
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Old August 24, 2012, 06:11 PM   #36
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Yes, yes he was, but he seems to have been exercising those rights in a very idiotic manner by searching for confrontation and then trying to incite it with some of his statements.
Bingo!!
The camo dressed guy who carried a Draco in a TN park comes to mind: He lost his concealed carry permit over that exciting episode.

Good work officer Nork.
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Old August 24, 2012, 06:25 PM   #37
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What impressed me was the difference in this officers approach than those of the California cops who do not know nor apparently care about whither or not a weapon is legal.
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Old August 24, 2012, 08:51 PM   #38
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Like sitting at a lunch counter or not sitting toward the front of the bus, carrying openly may seem unduly confrontational.
Please spare us the Rosa Parks comparisons. They're inaccurate and insulting. There's a big difference between being denied basic rights because of how I was born and getting mildly hassled because I might happen to make an unwise decision.

The guy taking the video isn't an activist. He's a guy looking to score points with an audience by antagonizing law enforcement.
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Old August 24, 2012, 09:16 PM   #39
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I open carry almost exclusively...have for over 40 years. I have never been hasseled, I have talked to a couple officers while carrying...questions like, What is it?...Nice gun...hunting?...when are you going to join our gun club?...never been asked for my CPL or any other ID.

It is all in the manner in which you carry.

Personally, I do not think the officer should have started this encounter. There was no reasonable reason to suspect that the guy was doing anything but looking for a confrontation. Why accomdate him?

Those up to no good do not put their firearms out on display anyone (especially LE) to see...they hide them. That is the whole idea behind the concealed carry prohibitions.

That it may be a crime? I don't think so.

Just like you need a CPL to carry a loaded pistol in a vehicle here in WA. You may specifically carry (open or concealed with a CPL) in public transportation, but if the arm is loaded you do need a CPL.

So now (this will never happen with me, there is no public transportaton in my county) let's say I am visiting Seattle and waiting for the Seattle City bus with my openly carried pistol. Is the possibility that pistol MAY be loaded (in which case I need a CPL) a reasonable reason to detain me and demand my CPL? and maybe inspect my weapon? I say no...
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Old August 24, 2012, 10:33 PM   #40
hogdogs
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AWESOME rendition of PROPER police work... What a PRO!!! He sure makes many LEO's I have encountered look all the worse!!!


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Old August 24, 2012, 11:24 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckusaret
To each his own on open carry, I don't care to. The young man is not an idiot as some have stated, he was exercising his rights just as I would have.
The young man may have been exercising a right, but he was doing so with the obvious intention of generating a confrontation with the police. He was going out of his way to provoke the officer, starting at the beginning of the video when he asked the officer, "Don't you want to park your car here so you can block traffic?"

Rights or not -- the kid is an idiot.
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Old August 25, 2012, 07:22 AM   #42
zukiphile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila Blanca
Rights or not -- the kid is an idiot.
Gratuitous rudeness to a PO is hardly ever a good idea.

Quote:
Please spare us the Rosa Parks comparisons. They're inaccurate and insulting. There's a big difference between being denied basic rights because of how I was born and getting mildly hassled because I might happen to make an unwise decision.
None of those differences bear on the comparison, which is to undertaking an action that may seem unduly confrontational. The similarity, the purpose for which the comparison is offered, is that each has a right he exercises for the purpose of establishing that he has it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zukiphile
Like sitting at a lunch counter or not ["not" should be deleted] sitting toward the front of the bus, carrying openly may seem unduly confrontational.
In each instance, a person undertakes a confrontational act, one that doesn't make social comfort the highest priority.

For the purpose offered, the comparison is accurate. That you assess the merits of the actors causes differently should not lead you to believe you've been insulted.
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