The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 25, 2012, 11:39 AM   #51
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,385
FYI, Ladies Night at bars where ladies pay less has been ruled a problem in several states, but not all where it has been brought to the courts...
Quote:
A ladies' night is a promotional event, often at a bar or nightclub, where female patrons pay less than male patrons for the cover charge or drinks. State courts in California, Maryland, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin have ruled that ladies' night discounts are unlawful gender discrimination under state or local statutes. However, courts in Illinois, Minnesota, and Washington have rejected a variety of challenges to such discounts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladies'_night

Note that the gun range in question is in a different county that the Maryland lawsuit on ladies night was held.
http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1986/Ap...1825be6431717e

I am still not sure where paying $15 (his injury for having to pay when the ladies did not) constitutes received $200K, the amount of the suit. I am thinking he gets his $15, interest, and legal fees back, at most.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011

Last edited by Double Naught Spy; August 25, 2012 at 02:02 PM.
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old August 25, 2012, 01:35 PM   #52
Don P
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,786
Quote:
Times are changing....even the Ladies will be wearing "Green Jackets" at Augusta.
As stated in post # 22 you "HAVE TO WIN" in order to get and wear the green jacket.
__________________
NRA Life Member, NRA Range Safety Officer, IDPA Safety Officer
As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.
Don P is offline  
Old August 25, 2012, 01:36 PM   #53
allaroundhunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 6, 2012
Location: Southeast Texas
Posts: 1,670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don P View Post
As stated in post # 22 you "HAVE TO WIN" in order to get and wear the green jacket.
No, you don't, members of Augusta National are given green jackets as a way to show their membership, and there are two female members being admitted

Sent from my HTC One X

Last edited by allaroundhunter; August 25, 2012 at 02:44 PM.
allaroundhunter is offline  
Old August 25, 2012, 01:51 PM   #54
Don H
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 8, 2000
Location: SLC,Utah
Posts: 2,705
Quote:
Originally Posted by allaroundhunter
No, you don't, members of Augusta National are given green jackets as a way to show their membership, and there are two female members being admitted (one of whom being Mrs. Michelle Obama)...
The new female members are Condoleezza Rice and Darla Moore.
Don H is offline  
Old August 25, 2012, 02:44 PM   #55
allaroundhunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 6, 2012
Location: Southeast Texas
Posts: 1,670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don H View Post
The new female members are Condoleezza Rice and Darla Moore.
Wow... I feel like an idiot.... I knew that I swear.... These early mornings after late nights studying are already killing me

Sent from my HTC One X
allaroundhunter is offline  
Old August 25, 2012, 03:58 PM   #56
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
So are they going to ban female-only classes, next, if this guy wins?
MLeake is offline  
Old August 26, 2012, 04:33 PM   #57
armoredman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Location: Arizona
Posts: 3,751
If this is illegal, why do we have colleges that discriminate on both sex AND race?
__________________
http://czfirearms.us/ same original CZForum, new location.
armoredman is offline  
Old August 26, 2012, 07:00 PM   #58
allaroundhunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 6, 2012
Location: Southeast Texas
Posts: 1,670
Quote:
If this is illegal, why do we have colleges that discriminate on both sex AND race?
Just another double-standard in today's society....
allaroundhunter is offline  
Old August 26, 2012, 09:40 PM   #59
NJgunowner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2009
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,079
I propose to everyone on this forum that they SHOULD be upset about things like "Ladies night". The reality is if this range was running a "gentlemen's night", feminist groups around the country would be lining up to sue them. They'd have protesters parked in front from opening to close.

You can't get true equality by flipping it around granting special privileges to another group. That just breeds more resentment.
__________________
Sig 1911 Traditional reverse two tone, Sig p226 .40, Sig 556 Swat patrol, Baby Eagle/jerico steel .45
NJgunowner is offline  
Old August 26, 2012, 09:49 PM   #60
ScottRiqui
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2010
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 2,905
I don't see a problem with a business trying to expand their customer base by offering a promotional discount to a group that they normally have a hard time attracting. I've seen similar offers at day spas in an attempt to attract men.
ScottRiqui is offline  
Old August 26, 2012, 10:18 PM   #61
rtpzwms
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 6, 2010
Location: OTS
Posts: 794
I'm thinkin he's no longer welcome at the range...
__________________
Experience is what you get when you don’t get what you want.
rtpzwms is offline  
Old August 26, 2012, 10:18 PM   #62
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,192
Quote:
I propose to everyone on this forum that they SHOULD be upset about things like "Ladies night"
I disagree. It's one thing to get our feathers ruffled over real problems, like unemployment or the cancellation of Manimal.

But life's too short to lapse into outrage over something like this. If the range were turning away people based on gender, race, or some other factor, that would be one thing. They're not. They're simply offering a small monetary incentive to one group in order to attract business.

What actually would upset me would be a court finding for the plaintiff.
__________________
In the depth of winter I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer.
--Albert Camus
Tom Servo is offline  
Old August 26, 2012, 10:29 PM   #63
ScottRiqui
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2010
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 2,905
Quote:
I disagree. It's one thing to get our feathers ruffled over real problems, like unemployment or the cancellation of Manimal.
I was going to give you a hard time, but I have to admit that I'm still upset that ABC canceled "Home Front", and that's been almost 20 years ago.
ScottRiqui is offline  
Old August 27, 2012, 08:25 AM   #64
NJgunowner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2009
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,079
Quote:
If the range were turning away people based on gender, race, or some other factor, that would be one thing. They're not. They're simply offering a small monetary incentive to one group in order to attract business.
Let me flip it around on you again.

If they offered "White Guy Wednesday" would that be ok? Every wednesday the white guys get free range time... you know because they don't have enough white guys going to their range. How do you not think that wouldn't be brought to court as discrimination? But hey, we weren't turning the black guys away, we just required them to pay!



Any time you give one class of people, whether by race or gender, special privileges or pricing, it's discrimination. IE wrong. You know, 60 years ago black people weren't refused the right to ride the bus in the south, they just had to sit in the back, so no big deal right? (and yes I went there. It's fairly extreme example but it gets the point across. You can call it anything you like but it is what it is)
__________________
Sig 1911 Traditional reverse two tone, Sig p226 .40, Sig 556 Swat patrol, Baby Eagle/jerico steel .45
NJgunowner is offline  
Old August 27, 2012, 09:08 AM   #65
zukiphile
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 13, 2005
Posts: 1,623
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGunowner
Let me flip it around on you again.

If they offered "White Guy Wednesday" would that be ok? Every wednesday the white guys get free range time... you know because they don't have enough white guys going to their range. How do you not think that wouldn't be brought to court as discrimination? But hey, we weren't turning the black guys away, we just required them to pay!



Any time you give one class of people, whether by race or gender, special privileges or pricing, it's discrimination. IE wrong....
I think part of the frustration with a plaintiff pressing for apppication of a rule in this instance is that discrimination is not categorically wrong. We discriminate accordong to SAT scores is college selection, and reputation in deciding where to send children to school. Appropriate discrimination is a necessary part of ordinary life, and we only sense the propriety of intervention by the courts where there is an injustice resulting from the discrimination.

It's tough to put one's finger on the malignant result in a business using incentives to involve women in a hobby to which they might otherwise not be drawn.
zukiphile is offline  
Old August 27, 2012, 10:07 AM   #66
NJgunowner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2009
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,079
Quote:
It's tough to put one's finger on the malignant result in a business using incentives to involve women in a hobby to which they might otherwise not be drawn.
Then you haven't really thought it through. Again I propose, consider what would happen if a business that attracts say 90% black or hispanic people offered discounts to white people to get their business. The backlash would be massive.

It only goes to show how conditioned we've become to look the other way when certain types of discrimination happen to one segment of the population, while crying bloody tears when the exact same thing happens to a different segment. We should be equally upset, not picking and choosing.

SAT scores is a bad example. If you want into the best colleges apply yourself and study to get the scores you need, or the scholarships. You can't however choose the sex you were born with or the color of your skin.
__________________
Sig 1911 Traditional reverse two tone, Sig p226 .40, Sig 556 Swat patrol, Baby Eagle/jerico steel .45
NJgunowner is offline  
Old August 27, 2012, 10:12 AM   #67
doingMach1
Junior Member
 
Join Date: August 26, 2012
Posts: 11
Lol! "White Guy Wednesday"! That would definitely cause a stir!

Personally I understand the issue and see the point, but I think this guy is just being a whiney baby! I think it would be great to get more females to go shooting.

The real problem is that the only solution will be that they get rid of the ladies night at the range and us 'men' will still have to pay...but now we don't encourage the women to go. The range is not going to say "hey, you're right...everyone is free on Tuesday now!"

So either way it's a losing situation for us....so that guy suing? He needs to shut up and go to another range!
doingMach1 is offline  
Old August 27, 2012, 10:23 AM   #68
NJgunowner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2009
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,079
I don't disagree that the lawsuit probably doomed to failure. It's just the culture we have in this country right now. Much like how men get screwed in divorce courts and child custody.
__________________
Sig 1911 Traditional reverse two tone, Sig p226 .40, Sig 556 Swat patrol, Baby Eagle/jerico steel .45
NJgunowner is offline  
Old August 27, 2012, 11:05 AM   #69
ScottRiqui
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2010
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 2,905
Quote:
Appropriate discrimination is a necessary part of ordinary life, and we only sense the propriety of intervention by the courts where there is an injustice resulting from the discrimination.
Good point - it's one thing to complain because you're actually being discriminated *against*, and another thing entirely when you're just butthurt because you can't stand to see someone else get an occasional "good deal".

I think I know which camp the plaintiff falls into, since even if the range discontinues "Ladies' Night" entirely, it's not going to change his price by a single penny.
ScottRiqui is offline  
Old August 27, 2012, 11:21 AM   #70
zukiphile
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 13, 2005
Posts: 1,623
Quote:
It's tough to put one's finger on the malignant result in a business using incentives to involve women in a hobby to which they might otherwise not be drawn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJgunowner
Then you haven't really thought it through.
If you've thought it through to your own satisfaction, what do you think is the malignant result in a business using incentives to involve women in a hobby to which they might otherwise not be drawn?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NJgunowner
SAT scores is a bad example. If you want into the best colleges apply yourself and study to get the scores you need, or the scholarships. You can't however choose the sex you were born with or the color of your skin.
Let's think this one through. If a significant component of your intelligence is inherited, it doesn't matter that you would prefer to get a very high score. You will lack the ability.

The point it goes to is that we consider reasonable discrimination, judgments made with reference to traits that matter, entirely acceptable. That may shed light on the issue of why we consider some specific sorts of discrimination unacceptable, but that doesn't appear to be the direct issue involved in this case.
zukiphile is offline  
Old August 27, 2012, 11:29 AM   #71
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,192
Quote:
If they offered "White Guy Wednesday" would that be ok?
Heck, every day is "White Guy Wednesday" at gun ranges

It could be argued that a policy giving a discount to ladies on one day encourages diversity. Perhaps that's the central question here: where is the line between the two incentive and discrimination?

I can see both sides of this, but the plaintiff is going to have a hard time showing damages, and the plain fact is, many businesses offer "ladies night" types of incentives.
__________________
In the depth of winter I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer.
--Albert Camus
Tom Servo is offline  
Old August 27, 2012, 11:36 AM   #72
NJgunowner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2009
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,079
Quote:
That may shed light on the issue of why we consider some specific sorts of discrimination unacceptable, but that doesn't appear to be the direct issue involved in this case.
True, this has nothing to do with an individuals ability... only their gender. I've noticed that NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON here has responded to my inquiry as to what would happen if the situation was reversed.

Like I said, our whole lives we've been conditioned to accept certain forms of discrimination. Instead of everyone going along with it, maybe it's time to look at the situation logically instead of going with the status quo.

Quote:
Heck, every day is "White Guy Wednesday" at gun ranges
That's funny, my range never gives me free time. Maybe I'm missing it?

And ya, this guys lawsuit is destined for failure. But it doesn't change that for a country that espouses equality we still offer segments of the population preferential treatment. Doesn't matter what your reasons are, it's the results that matter.
__________________
Sig 1911 Traditional reverse two tone, Sig p226 .40, Sig 556 Swat patrol, Baby Eagle/jerico steel .45

Last edited by NJgunowner; August 27, 2012 at 11:42 AM.
NJgunowner is offline  
Old August 27, 2012, 11:40 AM   #73
ScottRiqui
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2010
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 2,905
I would have no problem with a "White Guy Wednesday", especially if:

a) attracting more white customers would align the racial makeup of his clientele more closely with the racial makeup of his community, and

b) there are sufficient resources such that none of the regular customers are being turned away in order to make room for the "White Guys".
ScottRiqui is offline  
Old August 27, 2012, 11:46 AM   #74
NJgunowner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2009
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,079
I didn't ask what you thought of it, I asked what would happen.

I'll answer for you, you'd have Al Sharpton and every politician and "rights" group lined up in droves to sue you. You'd be lucky not to have the local or state try and shut you down.
__________________
Sig 1911 Traditional reverse two tone, Sig p226 .40, Sig 556 Swat patrol, Baby Eagle/jerico steel .45
NJgunowner is offline  
Old August 27, 2012, 11:50 AM   #75
zukiphile
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 13, 2005
Posts: 1,623
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJgunowner
True, this has nothing to do with an individuals ability... only their gender. I've noticed that NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON here has responded to my inquiry as to what would happen if the situation was reversed.

Like I said, our whole lives we've been conditioned to accept certain forms of discrimination. Instead of everyone going along with it, maybe it's time to look at the situation logically instead of going with the status quo.
Rather than suppose that no one else has thought this through, you might examine the differences between a "Ladies night" and a "Whites Only" policy.

My policy preference is that owners be free to set admission criteria, but that isn't public policy. Law and public policy on this point often rest on terms of addressing a prior injustice, and are considered remedial.

What injustice is perpetrated by "Ladies night" that should have a remedy in the law? Or as I asked above,

Quote:
If you've thought it through to your own satisfaction, what do you think is the malignant result in a business using incentives to involve women in a hobby to which they might otherwise not be drawn?
zukiphile is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:20 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12597 seconds with 7 queries