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Old August 22, 2012, 02:51 PM   #26
wncchester
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"I wasn't going to attempt to make a "hot load" this was more of a thread to boast ones abilities. It's crazy how quick people are to jump down others throats around here."

That isn't what you implied and you misunderstand the responses.

Fact is, any fool can make a 'hot load' simply by pouring more powder in the case but that is NOT a goal accomplished reloaders seek or accept.

A hot young novice once asked a group at the range how he could make the hottest loads possible. One old dude shurgged and told him to work up his charges, adding about .2 gr at a time until something blew out, then back off .3 grains... there's some real wisdom in there if you can find it.
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Old August 22, 2012, 04:43 PM   #27
Edward429451
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One thing I've always heard is that if the velocity is there, then the pressure is there. I'm not so sure that I agree with that across the board because it could only obtain the higher pressure if the load was worked up with the same length test barrel, and obtained higher velocities.

Me getting max load velocities with starting loads could not possibly translate into I have max load pressures. What would up the pressure? The longer barrel? Ha! Physics don't work like that. It's simply a more complete combustion in the longer barrel.

Those with short barreled guns who are trying to achieve book velocities which were worked up with longer barrels are the ones who have to be real careful of the pressure.
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Old August 22, 2012, 05:43 PM   #28
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For those who say NEVER exceed book maximum's I think you had better stop and think for just a minute about that. In most cases that advice is all well, good, and proper. However:

7.92X57 has been unjustly underloaded by the factories AND shortchanged in the manuals for DECADES. Most hand loaders and users aren't dumb enough to to shove a .323 bullet into a model 1888 rifle with a .318 bore and weak metallurgy. Some are but the vast majority aren't. If the data is 35k CUP and you have a Mod. '98 you can go well above that SAFELY!

45 Colt and 45-70 factory loads are also in the same league. Because careful people used modern guns we now have 45 Ruger / TC loads and three levels of 45-70.

32 H&R: I am loading well above the 21k book limit with this round.....in a Ruger SSM that can handle 35k loads all day long. We are even beginning to see loads that are "Not For the H&R Revolvers" on the market: Buffalo Bore markets it for one.

32 S&W Long. You can go over the black powder load limits of the SAAMI 12k CUP limit for a variety of S&W and Colt revolvers chambered for that caliber, as well as everything 32 H&R and 327. One needs to be careful since pressure can go up quickly in this little round but a 15k CUP round isn't going to detonate a SSM.

IPSC shooter for many years have been going well over book with 9mm and 38 Supers. People have hot rodded the 45 ACP to make the 450 Rowland.

OTOH, trying to get more velocity out of a 300 RUM by filling the case full of fast rifle powder is asking for it. You are already working with a 65k PSI round.

The Hornady manual scares me with my 375 RUM. Their maximum loads are not even starting load or barely past starting as claimed by the powder manufacturers and distributors using the same components and rifle. With a round this big, that tells me that their starting loads are a recipe for a hang fire or worse.
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Old August 22, 2012, 07:11 PM   #29
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there is no acceptable level of accuracy below the best your gun can do.
As strictly a LR target shooter, I thought...that's correct. Accuracy, is "it"... energy at the target is irrelevant.

Then I realized, if I wanted to kill something...that velocity- even at the expense of some accuracy- becomes very relevant as relates to energy and terminal effects at the critter on the receiving end.

Different needs, different priorities. Most accurate load, might not be the "best" load...
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Old August 22, 2012, 08:33 PM   #30
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but with a Winchester m70 (post 64) rifle, if I am surpassing "book velocities" with a load, I am probably exceding pressures also right? There is no free lunch. I loaded the wife's 270 under Hornady's max weight of RL22 and found I was exceding their velocity. After 2-3 loadings I found the primer pockets got loose. Too hot I figure and backed off. What say you, grizzled powder stuffers?
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Old August 22, 2012, 08:39 PM   #31
ScottRiqui
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if I am surpassing "book velocities" with a load, I am probably exceding pressures also right?
Depends partially on the barrel length. If you have a longer barrel than the one the testing was done with, you can achieve higher velocities with lower pressures, since the expanding gases have a greater distance over which to work on the bullet.
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Old August 22, 2012, 10:02 PM   #32
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CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I made 50 rounds with 7.0 grains of Alliant's Power Pistol + 124 gr Berry's Plated Round Nose, CCI500 small primer + mixed range brass + slight cripped with 1.155" OAL using Lee's deluxe 4 carbide set. My Kahr PM9 KICKED like a MULE but she liked it

Setted for 5.7 gr and shot 500 rounds of these and got 1 inch groups at 7 yards but still a little HOT for my taste, My next batch will be 5.3 gr just to see if there's any diff in acuracy.

Note: 5.1 gr min - 5.7 gr max are within the recommended charge anything more would be asking for trouble.

Last edited by silent_assasin; August 23, 2012 at 11:51 PM.
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Old August 22, 2012, 10:33 PM   #33
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Quote:
For those who say NEVER exceed book maximum's I think you had better stop and think for just a minute about that. In most cases that advice is all well, good, and proper. However:
What you said in your post about the different calibers is correct. However, you happen to be an experienced and knowledgeable hand loader. The OP was not and his motives were suspect. The warnings he got were correct for the context (he is an absolute beginner and does not have the requisite knowledge yet, to push the limits).
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Old August 23, 2012, 05:08 AM   #34
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Quote:
I made 50 rounds with 7.0 grains of Alliant's Power Pistol + 124 gr Berry's Plated Round Nose...
Sounds like you are tempting fate a bit... good luck and try not to shoot right next to anyone. Also, when you post extra-hot loads there is a disclaimer you need to pull from the sticky note at the top.
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Old August 23, 2012, 12:49 PM   #35
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Quote:
if I am surpassing "book velocities" with a load, I am probably exceding pressures also right?
That really depends on what the "book velocities" are taken from.

If the velocities published in the manual are from a test barrel that is the same length of longer than the barrel on your own rifle, then the answer is definitely "yes." The pressure in the test barrel is directly related to the velocity from the test barrel.

On the other hand, if the published velocities were taken from loads that were first developed in a test barrrel, then fired in an "example" rifle to give "realistic velocity expectations" (as many manuals do), then it is entirely possible that their example rifle produced less pressure as well as less velocity than occurred with the same loads in the test barrel. If that is the situation, then it IS possible to exceed the published velocities without exceeding SAAMI pressures, because that is exactly what their test barrel was doing. The pressure in the test barrel and the velocity in the example rifle are not direclty related. A wide variety of pressures COULD have been published by shooting those same loads in a wide variety of "example" rifles with different chamber and leade dimensions.

However, it also pays to realize that you are using a different lot # of the powder than was used to create the data published in the manual. So, even if your cartridges were loaded to exacty the same physical dimensions with the same components and then fired in THEIR teswt barrel, the pressure would probably be different. It might be lower or higher.

So, it is important to work-up loads carefully and look for signs that pressure MIGHT be higher than expected. Exceeding the published book velocities is certainly on sign to consider, but it has the uncertainties discussed above. Other pressure signs are also important, but those also have uncertainties. There are several printed discriptions by people who have fired proof-level cartridges (130% to 155% of SAAMI pressure limits) in modern guns and observed NO pressure indications.

Of course, doing that repeatedly will eventually damage the gun with the repeated stress. So, it is important to settle on handloads for our guns that within SAAMI guidance, or at least for those calibers that are substantially under-rated by SAAMI because of antique guns, to keep within pressure limits set by the manual publishers for more modern guns (e.g., Ruger only loads for the .45 Colt).

Deciding to proceed to higher charge weights in the face of indications of possibly excess pressure such as "greater than book velocities" is an individual decision that should not be take lightly. Only when you have reason to believe you understand WHY the indications are NOT REALLY caused by excess pressure would it make any sense to keep going up. (And, that presumes that you are still below the published "max" charge.)

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Old August 23, 2012, 05:14 PM   #36
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Your pressures are also effected by the chamber, throat, and barrel (land/ groove diameter). If your chamber is tight at the case neck it can raise pressures. If you have a short or long throat / freebore your pressures will vary considerably. If you have a tight or loose bore that will also effect your pressures.

Example: 300 Weatherby Magnum. Known for a long freebore in typical Weahterby style for Weatherby brand rifles. If you have a rifle that is made with a short freebore (Say on a Rem 700 action), a minimum SAAMI spec chamber, and a tight barrel you can hit pressure limits early on and not hit close to book velocities.

OTOH if you take a 7.62 Mosin who's chamber is barely go on the field gauge, has a barrel worn from years, corrosion, and cleaning, and a worn throat that has lots of extra free bore, you can possibly exceed book by a noticeable margin and still be within pressure limits.

We must keep in mind that pressure barrels and chambers tend to be on the tight side of SAAMI spec to begin with. They do this to take into account the worst possible scenario that should be allowed to leave the factory.
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Old August 23, 2012, 06:09 PM   #37
wncchester
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One thing I think we can be sure of; anyone asking about the advisbility or methods of exceeding any book load is MUCH too inexperienced to do it. And precious few of us have any justification for exceeding book loads anyway. And it has nothing to do with "boosting abilites", etc.

Loading is a solitary activity for careful people, it's not a high schooler's 'group project' thing.
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Old August 23, 2012, 06:57 PM   #38
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My hottest load was actually unintentional.

I had a custom built FN rifle with a M98 action in 22-250 and the rifle clearly had a tight chamber. Loaded several rounds in .3 grain increments from min to max and at 0.6 grains below the published max in the ADI handbook i had the case (previously only once fired with factory ammo) blow out the primer pocket and melt the brass.

Noticed it when smoke was pouring out around the bolt and recoil felt weird. Nothing happened to me or the rifle luckily.

Was using Benchmark 2 powder (min/max listed at 31.6 to 33.6 and when i got to 33 grains I started getting cratered primer pockets for two rounds. It blew when i fired the third. I probably should really have stopped at the cratered pockets but continued because factory ammo also gave slightly cratered pockets.

I don't care for super hot loads anymore (though when testing a new gun and finding the OCW i will always go from min to max) but I understand your desire to chase them. I've given you my hottest load - my advice is just to keep looking for signs of overpressure and work up to a load, even if its a published one.
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Old August 23, 2012, 09:04 PM   #39
SHR970
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Loading is a solitary activity for careful people, it's not a high schooler's 'group project' thing.
Anyone can play!

But if you treat it like a typical male high schooler you'll quickly get a reintroduction to Darwin's Theory.

Just because you can drop a blown 520 cu. in. engine into a Chevy Vega doesn't mean you should.

That said; although we have an obligation to try to dissuade the inexperienced and ignorant from doing stupid things, we also owe them accurate information.
We all know there are exceptions to the rule.
We all know that there are variables to the equations; you know like the loading manuals don't agree on where starting is.
We also know that a bit of surfing and they can find out the half of the information that can get them in trouble. "you know; the data posted all over that has the warning caveats"

We do owe the novices the wisdom of "Best Practices" so they can get the experience necessary to know where they can stretch their wings a bit.
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Old August 23, 2012, 10:41 PM   #40
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Define "hot load".

Militant, you'll find reloading an interesting and challenging hobby.

Allow me to answer your initial question a bit obliquely. One can get the same levels of velocity and accuracy from handloads as one can from factory ammunition. Reloading does not demand wimpy loads.

If one is trying to achieve hunting power loads, feel free. With careful application and paying attention to what is happening, one can sometime exceed factory ammunition velocities with equal or lesser pressures. Accuracy can be much better, as one can tailor the load - changing type of powder, amount of powder, type of bullet and seating depth of bullet - to fit one's own firearm exactly.

I have a couple rifles that shoot the best with the heaviest loads I shoot. (A military surplus 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser and a commercial Remington 700 in .308 Winchester being two of them.)

I have a wildcat chambered rifle in an 'improved' .30-06 variation. It is designed to be a maximum effort hunting rifle. The lightest bullet I use in that rifle is 165 grains and I prefer 200 grain bullets. It delivers a rather heavy .30 caliber bullet at pretty impressive velocities. It has definite recoil, some muzzle blast and yet is within the pressure range for the rifle action - a 1917 Eddystone.

I also have a Savage Sportster in .32-20 and I load it fairly gently. No point in trying to make it an elephant gun. The round I probably load most is a light wadcutter load for .38 Special.

The point is, one can do many things as a reloader. Hot loads - loads getting the most power from your particular firearm - are one such thing. Hot loads, meaning an intentional overcharge, are pointless.
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Old August 27, 2012, 10:19 AM   #41
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hottest vs stupidest

I was developing a 45 Colt load with a 395g bullet.

I developed numerous loads for 10mm.

I started shooting 'Major Nine' before it was allowed in the USA.

I bent a 44 Redhawk with a 300g lead bullet load.

I lost EVERY 400 CorBon case inside a National Guard 6-lane indoor range.

I can make 110g JHPs vaporize when they exit the muzzle of my 7.5" 357 Redhawk.

What was the question?
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Old August 27, 2012, 01:22 PM   #42
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I am certain that you won't find a regular poster that has chronographed his own handloads farther above & beyond what anyone else has ever admitted to doing, at least here currently on TFL forums than you will from the poster Clark.

So if the purpose of the thread is "who has made XXX chambering go the fastest?" then simply tune the search engine to Clark and enjoy the results.

Clark does heavy pressure testing and he stops when the firearm breaks. He will then often weld up the firearm and try to go farther.

I haven't found a lot of personal practical use in the results he comes up with, but I always find them interesting and enjoyable to read about.
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Old August 27, 2012, 02:58 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by NESHOOTER View Post
No one jumping here, we just want you around with ALL of your Digits and eyes most of us reloaders here first practice safety not so much speed as we know speed doesn't kill its the sudden stop.
Not true. There were several "jumpers" before you posted. A friendly warning would have been fine.

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