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Old August 25, 2012, 11:06 AM   #51
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I have a close friend who was Army Special Forces (Green Beret) out of Seventh Group. He carried an MP5 exclusively when in a combat zone for the first 2 years he was operational. They ran into some bad guys with body armor on one patrol and he signed himself for an EBR afterwards. Even if he had just gone to an M4, he'd have been stepping up his firepower significantly and still have a very comfortable to carry, low recoil weapon - that doesn't get defeated by soft body armor.
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Old August 25, 2012, 12:08 PM   #52
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This is one of my pistol caliber carbines. Neat gun, but not what I would grab first if something went bump in the night. On the other hand, it has a trememdous visual impact on rude squatters camping where they shouldn't be.

Other one is a Marlin carbne in .357, a nice handy gun short, light, and fairly powerful if needed. It is a excellent choice for a camp gun, and if you are a traveling camper, one of its biggest advantages is it avoids different states laws about assault weapons, and handguns, being neither one of those.
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Old September 1, 2012, 08:09 AM   #53
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Because most people own and shoot either pistols or rifles when they go target practicing and those who shoot regularly aren't going to spend their money buying an under powered novelty gun that's only used by swat teams and in the movies. Unlike disinformation about AK-47s and ARs u really can't hunt with them practically or legally, so their appeal and application is limited.
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Old September 3, 2012, 05:15 PM   #54
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I have a Hi-point 995 with Ati stock and a reflex red dot that shoots 1" groups at 50 yds more accurate than my Saiga or Galil.I carry 5 ten round mags with it.
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Old September 3, 2012, 07:40 PM   #55
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Regarding the shotgun doing all kinds of collateral damage... it won't .

At home defense distances, those little pellets don't spread very far at all.... rather tight, actually.

I had a friend flash me with a 100 lumen flashlight at night. I was blind for well over a minute... utterly helpless. If I were to try to shoot at the light, I would be required to look even more closely at that light (to take aim)... something that would be very difficult.... especially considering that the dude with the flashlight already has me in his sights.

One nice advantage of having handgun rounds in a carbine is that you can have a very simple arsenal without any confusion. 9mm glocks combined with 9mm Sub 2000 gives you one type of ammo... one type of magazine.... and the carbine greatly improves the characteristics of the 9mm.... gets it close to a 357 magnum.
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Old September 4, 2012, 11:29 AM   #56
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;)

I'm partial to anything in .45 ACP from 5 to 250 yards.



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Old September 4, 2012, 01:52 PM   #57
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I'm partial to anything in .45 ACP from 5 to 250 yards
Honestly.. Why?? Thats going to have some serious drop at that range. Hits will be difficult compared to other options. Not only that but the velocity of that .45 round is going to be reduced significantly at that range.

I love pistol caliber carbines but not for those kinds of ranges. For me they are for 100 yards and in. Unless your talking about .357 and .44 mag rifles
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Old September 4, 2012, 03:51 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Nathan
In a nutshell, it is the 16" min barrel length without a tax stamp.

If that were not there, I would have a 40 or 45 6" -8" carbine which used Glock or other 30 rd mags. Aimpoint micro and a bright light.

Something Uzi or MP5ish comes to mind, but Uncle Sam has made those too hard to own. A small pcc with a 16" barrel is pointless. A tax stamp is a waste of time and money.
Exactly why pistol caliber carbines are not popular in the U.S. You have to either go through all the crap of owning a SBR, or own a full size 16" rifle. If you're going to own a rifle, it might as well be a rifle caliber due to the extra range. Sure 9mm ammo is cheap but once you start getting into .40 and then 45acp the cost of .223 ammo is about the same to buy in bulk, like $330 for 1k rounds. .223 kick isn't that bad either and you get a heck of alot more range.

So really the only reason to own a pistol caliber is if you care about not putting as many holes through your wall like if you live in an apartment building, or for mag and caliber commonality, which i think is dumb. Just buy half as much of each ammo. AR mags are dirt cheap at 10 mags for $90. Whereas 30 round pistol mags are super pricey.
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Old September 4, 2012, 04:23 PM   #59
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So really the only reason to own a pistol caliber is if you care about not putting as many holes through your wall like if you live in an apartment building
And once more.....the idea that pistol rounds penetrate less than a defensive 5.56 round is false, and has been proven false many times.
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Old September 4, 2012, 04:57 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by allaroundhunter
And once more.....the idea that pistol rounds penetrate less than a defensive 5.56 round is false, and has been proven false many times.
Then that leaves the only reason to own a pistol caliber carbine as mag and caliber commonality. Perhaps noise although all will be very loud. Recoil from a 9mm rifle would be very light, but a .223 ar15 isn't bad either.

Ammo price is cheaper for 9mm, but .223 ammo is about the same price as .45acp and .40sw. That's all FMJ though, if i were shooting someone with FMJ, i'd want the most bullet energy possible and the .223 also has the advantge of tumble and yaw creating more damage with 3x the bullet energy over 45acp or .40sw.

Granted ammo price is negligible when buying in small quantities for home defense. Most would buy hollow point anyways. But some like to actually practice with their weapons too.
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Old September 4, 2012, 05:58 PM   #61
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Originally posted by gggplaya: Then that leaves the only reason to own a pistol caliber carbine as mag and caliber commonality. Perhaps noise although all will be very loud. Recoil from a 9mm rifle would be very light, but a .223 ar15 isn't bad either.
Not quite true. One state comprises over 13% of the US population and that same state has some serious restrictions on what we can and can not own. AR's are a fixed 10 round proposition. Bullet button mag. releases aren't the quickest to reload with either. However, any legal semiautomatic pistol caliber carbine can be reloaded much quicker even if you are restricted to 10 round mag.s. In an urban / suburban location 200 yards is most likely a much longer shot than you should be taking. Even in a SHTF situation a pistol caliber carbine that is available to you with the ability to recharge quickly is not a serious handicap.

As far as hitting power is concerned, a 44 Mag. carbine is no slouch and only gives up longer range to any 223. You are more ammo limited but the power is there.

When it all boils down, you need to look at the totality of the situation. Some people can't use a handgun effectively. Some locations don't allow evil black rifles and have mag. capacity restrictions. Some people can't handle the kick of a 12 gauge. Some places don't require 500 yard shots. Etc. Etc.
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Old September 4, 2012, 07:00 PM   #62
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I forgot about Komifornia. In that case i'd own a beretta CX4 or a sub2000 that takes glock mags. You are limited because i can't think of any rifle caliber carbine that wouldn't require a bullet button.

But .44 mag, that's too rich for my blood to practice with.
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Old September 4, 2012, 07:32 PM   #63
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Ruger carbines, Marlin Camp series, 30M1, just to name a few do not require BB. If it doesn't have a "pistol grip" or thumb hole sporter stock, it probably does not require a BB.

Edit: You are forgiven the oversight...every one seems to want to forget us. We make up more than 1 in 8 people nationally (a large market share) but we are often taken for granted. Just also keep in mind the other folks in less than free states like N.J., Mass, Il., etc.; we're not the only ones with asinine laws to deal with.
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Old September 4, 2012, 09:49 PM   #64
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But .44 mag, that's too rich for my blood to practice with.
Related to that; are there any good 10mm carbines out there? Especially considering the handloading options, seems like that would a very capable platform, with a bit more reach than the more common 9/40/45 offerings. Since 10mm is often compared to 44 (well, 41mag, but close enough), it seems like it should be as capable as a big bore lever gun, while being mag-feedable.

I guess, since it couldn't be blowback, no one can afford to make one (if you don't count pistol stocks or AR uppers). Seems like a cool idea though; run anything from barn-burner Buffalo Bores to subsonic silencer rounds, with enough oomph to count in either case. Possibly a better use for the round than pistols...

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Old September 4, 2012, 11:55 PM   #65
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If your live in a restrictive state you should consider a lever action in .357
With the extra velocity gains in a 16 inch barrel, the right loads have energy levels that approach the 30-30 round
With practice rapid aimed shots are easy enough and you can top off rounds as you fire them.

It would be cheap to shoot and very PC. Lever action and no detachable magazine means the hysterical/hypocritical anti's can't make you look like a bad gun for owning it either. (Its hard for them to make your gun an evil weapon of death if it looks like something John Wayne would carry)
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Old September 5, 2012, 09:42 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SHR970
Ruger carbines, Marlin Camp series, 30M1, just to name a few do not require BB. If it doesn't have a "pistol grip" or thumb hole sporter stock, it probably does not require a BB.
Yes, but then you don't get a pistol grip, now you have a rifle carbine. I'd prefer the pistol grip for in the house, so a pistol caliber carbine wins out, probably in 45acp. Sucks to live in a state that doesn't really care about the rights of it's people or the constitution. Although i love the weather in LA, it's flippin awsome.

And BTW, i think i remember someone making a thumbhole stock for the ar15. Legality wise, it has never come up in court so there is no precedence as to whether you need a bullet button for that or not. But technically you don't need a bullet button. However, i'm no lawyer and not giving any legal advice.
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Old September 5, 2012, 05:27 PM   #67
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Originally posted by gggplaya
Yes, but then you don't get a pistol grip, now you have a rifle carbine. I'd prefer the pistol grip for in the house, so a pistol caliber carbine wins out, probably in 45acp.
Marlin Camp 9 (9mm) or Camp 45 (45 ACP) are pistol caliber carbines. Ruger PC9 (9mm) or PC4 (40 S&W) are too. A 30 carbine arguably is considered by many a pistol caliber carbine also. Let's not confuse pistol caliber for grip; they are two different animals.

An AR-15 is pistol gripped, but most wouldn't consider the 223 to be a pistol caliber. Platform style and platform caliber are two different considerations.
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Old September 6, 2012, 10:51 AM   #68
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Father Time

Quote:
I'm partial to anything in .45 ACP from 5 to 250 yards
Honestly.. Why?? Thats going to have some serious drop at that range. Hits will be difficult compared to other options. Not only that but the velocity of that .45 round is going to be reduced significantly at that range.

I love pistol caliber carbines but not for those kinds of ranges. For me they are for 100 yards and in. Unless your talking about .357 and .44 mag rifles


Then you really don't know do you. I carried the .45 M1A1 and the M3 and could engage targets from 100 to 200 yards as well as 5 to ten yards. With the HK I can hit cans at 250 yards still today. The drop at 200 is only 18"~20" an easy hold over then back to 100 point blank. I have girls that can do it too.

Cheers

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Old September 7, 2012, 12:38 PM   #69
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The drop at 200 is only 18"~20"
I would consider that a lot of drop (compaired to 5.56 zeroed at 100 yards your only looking at about 2 inches of drop). And while haveing a reflex sight on your gun helps with holdovers its harder to do with irons due to the front sight obscureing your target.
The loss of velocity at those ranges is also something to consider.

If you can do it more power to ya. I wasn't trying to knock your choice in firearms

BTW nice HK. Is that a Burris red dot on it?
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Old September 7, 2012, 01:41 PM   #70
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I would be interested in a big bore pistol cal carbine if it were in 45 WinMag or 50 AE. That would be an interesting carbine and would probably be more efficient than a 223, especially short range.
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