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Old August 21, 2012, 05:30 PM   #26
Sabre9mm
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Nice read, thanks.

I wish I had the resources to educate myself more on these things hands on
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Old August 21, 2012, 05:37 PM   #27
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In a nutshell, it is the 16" min barrel length without a tax stamp.

If that were not there, I would have a 40 or 45 6" -8" carbine which used Glock or other 30 rd mags. Aimpoint micro and a bright light.

Something Uzi or MP5ish comes to mind, but Uncle Sam has made those too hard to own. A small pcc with a 16" barrel is pointless. A tax stamp is a waste of time and money.
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Old August 21, 2012, 08:59 PM   #28
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Pistol caliber carbines are as good as ever. But since the introduction of lightweight 16" AR's there is simply no need. With the right ammo the AR just does every thing a pistol caliber carbine does, and does it better.
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Old August 22, 2012, 03:39 AM   #29
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I'd love to have an SBR'ed MP-5 but i cant afford one.
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Old August 22, 2012, 05:10 AM   #30
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Lets see..I have an UZI, MP-5, Thompson, PPS 43,KelTec 2000, Soumi, and Scorpian to name a few. They are novialty semi-autos that had been converted from full auto. They all work just fine too. Where i live i can'tg own SBR's or machineguns as they were designed ..
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Old August 23, 2012, 06:11 PM   #31
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While not modern military type guns I do have a lot of experience with rifles what use revolver cartridges. They're great for hunting game up to WT Deer size and as such would do on 2 legged vermin. I live in the country and for around the house or in the house they'd do a fine job. Having said that, my AR can do more. It has longer range, holds more rounds and, at least on mine, has better optics. If I only had my '73 I'd not feel under gunned but I'd likely grab my AR if I had the choice.
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Old August 23, 2012, 06:55 PM   #32
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The OOP Ruger PCs (9 and 40) were nice guns, unfortunately 3/4 lb heavier than necessary or desirable for the rounds they fired. They were a chunk for something firing a pistol round. Always puzzled me. Otherwise a "modern day M1 Carbine," admittedly without the range. For close-in urban/SD/HD encounters, however, that extra range isn't necessary. If reintroduced at an appropriate weight, I think they'd sell very well (with .45 added to the mix as well). Also helping (but would never happen of course), ability to use hi-cap Glock or other mags other than just relatively lo cap Ruger pistol mags. I think "PC" stood for Police Carbine?
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Old August 23, 2012, 07:20 PM   #33
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I think the major issue is size and weight. You can step up to a much more powerful caliber for the same size and weight as most pistol caliber carbines.

However, I think pistol caliber carbines can do very well in a defensive role. They are easy to shoot and more accurate than a handgun. Some of them have more onboard ammo than a typical pistol as well.
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Old August 23, 2012, 08:53 PM   #34
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In a nutshell, it is the 16" min barrel length without a tax stamp.

If that were not there, I would have a 40 or 45 6" -8" carbine which used Glock or other 30 rd mags. Aimpoint micro and a bright light.
Which IS exactly where I was going to go!

This is exactly where the pistol caliber carbine is better than a rifle. Sure, you can SBR a 5.56mm AR but then you have the lower velocity to deal with. Cut that barrel back too much and you have some serious issues with how your ammo is going to work. Plus you have all that extra blast and flash. Sort of the opposite of what happens with a pistol carbine.

Let's use one of my own weapons for an example. Start with a Lone Wolf AR lower designed for Glock magazines. Have Ron Williams build a gas operated upper in .357 SIG. Go with a 9" barrel and a LaRue free float tube that covers it out to the flash suppresser. Then all the usual AR stuff. It uses the standard G31 mags, 15 rounds. It also uses the 22 round ones Glock has started selling for the .40's. I changed the followers over to the .357 SIG version. I put +2 followers on everything so that means the mags are 17 and 24 rounds.

You end up with a short and light little rifle that fires a 125 grain JHP Gold Dot bullet at 1550 fps. (Standard Speer load that the Air Marshal's carry. Double Tap loads are much hotter but the AM load works just fine.) Our of the SBR, it is much quieter and you have very little flash. It can be fired as fast as you can work your trigger finger. Nobody is going to complain about the recoil. But the bullet is considerably wider and 2.5x heavier than a 5.56 bullet. And that Gold Dot bullet is sure as heck going to expand and do its job.

The nine inch barrel will go up and down your hall much easier than any full length rifle or shotgun. Collapse the stock and you can store it next to your bed or in a closet. Pick it up, pull the stock out, turn on the sight, you've got a weapon that will hit a human torso every darn time out to 200 yards.

I like rifles. I like them a lot. But that little .357 SIG AR is a sweetheart. And that $200 tax stamp was a big nothing. I had to pay a $3600 car repair bill last month. How much of that money will I still be enjoying in ten years???

Gregg
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Old August 23, 2012, 10:19 PM   #35
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But that little .357 SIG AR is a sweetheart.
Pictures please?
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Old August 23, 2012, 10:31 PM   #36
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IMHO a pistol calber carbine-a semiauto, that is-is a lot like the M-1 Carbine-a great choice for some who either is legally barred or restricted from using/owning a handgun, while handier at close quarters than a full size rifle.
Also we need to specify what situations we are talking about. In the confines ot one's home, especially a condo or row house, a pistol round is better, less chance of over presentation, in a social collapse/urban riot situation, some with more range is preferable.
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Old August 24, 2012, 01:57 AM   #37
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2. pistol cal carbine: not as easy to move around corners and increases both noise and velocity but still under heavy penetration levels.
Wouldn't a carbine actually reduce noise relative to a pistol? Seems to me the report from a .22lr mousegun is significantly greater than from a long gun firing the same round.
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Old August 24, 2012, 02:51 AM   #38
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No longer made but still findable are the Marlin Camp Carbines in 9mm (std. S&W mags) and .45ACP (std. 1911 mags). Handy length and if they malfunction, use those same mags in your semi-auto handgun.

There is an oddball gun I'd be tempted to buy if I won a hefty scratch-off - the "mare's leg" that Steve McQueen made famous - comes in .357 and .45LC. Assuming you had the time and presence of mind to throw a bandolier over your shoulder (fat chance), you could re-load it without losing the ability to get off repeat shots if you needed to. Not much of an advantage over a clip/mag-fed semi-auto, though, so I'd still grab the Marlin in a pinch.

All based on the OP inquiry about handgun-caliber carbines.
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Old August 24, 2012, 08:03 AM   #39
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In answering the OP, I'd say it's because you can have the same size carbine in 5.56. More power, lighter and smaller weapon than the classic 45acp carbines. Compare a Tommy Gun to an AR short-barreled rifle. I'm at a loss to see where the advantage is with 9mm or 45acp weapons!
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Old August 24, 2012, 08:42 AM   #40
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@raftman, indubitably, the longer barrel does provide significantly less sound.
Same rounds fired side by side will leave you deaf from the handgun, I can shoot my carbine without plugs comfortably.

Lower recoil so faster keeping on target than the handgun (albeit in the average untrained hand), lower report, very little flash compared to handgun (Assuming powder is mostly burned before exiting the longer than expected barrel for the load).

Again, no expert, still learning myself, but I can only assume shortening a 5.56 barrel would increase all of these, while decreasing the terminal ballistics of the round.

So it seems logical would you rather make a 9mm hotter or a 5.56 cooler?

Mayhap the 5.56 toned down is still superior to the 9mm amped up, again would have to see specific comparisons to know for sure.

The end result would have to be some real data concerning energy and expansion in the same range of a pistol caliber carbines vs rifle caliber weapons of same length and weight. And then probably subject to load type, manufacturer, etc..

Certainly someone has done studies.
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Old August 24, 2012, 09:16 AM   #41
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Regarding that bright light on your gun. Look at it from the bad guy's perspective. You have just given him a perfect aim point.

Regarding "very little flash." Inside a house at night it still looks like a giant fireball.

And again, there is not and can't be any comparison between handgun rounds and the .223/5.56. Just ain't!
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Old August 24, 2012, 09:31 AM   #42
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Moxie, if you get a light that is putting out 100+ lumens directly into an intruder's eyes, it does not give him a good aiming point. Especially if his eyes are adjusted to darkness. It will disoriented the intruder and give you time to first assess whether you need to shoot, and second it will make aiming much easier.

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Old August 24, 2012, 10:08 AM   #43
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those military weapons are all sub machine guns, small, lightweight guns that spit a lot of lead very quickly. I however like the pistol cal carbine as a self defense/home defense round. it does not over penetrate, it's not nearly as loud as the usual suspect home defense calibers, and it's still lethal and accurate for just about any range that is defensible in court.

why so many don't use them? I haven't a clue. my list of home defense weapons in order of which I would grab first is
1. handgun: quick to load, quick to acquire target, compact and easy to move around corners. does not penetrate walls as easily as rifle cartridges
2. pistol cal carbine: not as easy to move around corners and increases both noise and velocity but still under heavy penetration levels.
3. standard carbine: last thing I would want to grab.

I don't follow the chain of thought that says your best option is a shotgun loaded with 00. I am fighting to protect my property and family, why would I want a gun that fires multiple projectiles at once in multiple directions and destroy my own stuff and possibly a loved one?
Most people are thinking of the sit and hole up plan-aka have a plan and get into a defensible position. Shotguns are very good in that regard. Rifles are decent as well in that the additional size is not a factor. People who believe they need a hand free to shepherd children etc. sometimes may still think of the shotgun, but often step down to a one handed pistol view (that’s mine).

Having said that, I could see using a pistol carbine, especially for a person who can’t take shotgun recoil. It would be perfect for my wife, but she prefers: “big baby” her 9mm Beretta. Having seen her rapid fire that puppy I am definitely not going to argue.

Honestly I don't think people think about it much. There are some carbine models for pistol calibers, but its not exactly on the radar.

Quote:
for survival situations or self defense outside the home however I would leave the 9mm at home and grab the 223 instead, more lethal and more accurate over range.
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Old August 24, 2012, 10:27 AM   #44
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Moxie, if you get a light that is putting out 100+ lumens directly into an intruder's eyes, it does not give him a good aiming point. Especially if his eyes are adjusted to darkness. It will disoriented the intruder and give you time to first assess whether you need to shoot, and second it will make aiming much easier.

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Thats assuming the light in his eyes...
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Old August 24, 2012, 10:58 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by zincwarrior View Post
Thats assuming the light in his eyes...
It really isn't difficult to put it there, it is a flashlight, the light is dispersed, not a laser sight.

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Old August 24, 2012, 11:13 AM   #46
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For the home defense role, I greatly prefer something like 5.56 over anything in pistol caliber, for 2 main reasons:

1) According to a couple of different tests, 5.56 with a light bullet (55 grain or so) penetrates hard barriers like drywall and brick less than 9mm or even 00 Buckshot.

2) The 5.56 puts a LOT more energy on target, and exhibits fragmentation in soft targets, especially at shorter distances.

The downsides are noise and flash... but those I can live with. Plus there are various muzzle devices that can mitigate these concerns.
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Old August 24, 2012, 03:35 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zincwarrior
Thats assuming the light in his eyes...

It really isn't difficult to put it there, it is a flashlight, the light is dispersed, not a laser sight.

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You kick the light on and he's in the hallway, another room, or in a corner. Light comes on and he shoots the light.
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Old August 24, 2012, 04:45 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by zincwarrior View Post
You kick the light on and he's in the hallway, another room, or in a corner. Light comes on and he shoots the light.
Have you ever actually tried to run a simulation for that type of situation? It is not as simple and easy as you are thinking it is.

There is training on how to use a light. And a main point is that you flash it, and then move. That way, if you are on the subject, you can leave it on and he will have a hard time seeing what he wants to see, or if you aren't on him, the light will be off and you will have moved and it will be quite difficult for him to get a fix on your location.

There are not nearly enough negatives to not have a light on (or with) a home defense firearm. I really can't think of a single reason not to have one available.

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Old August 25, 2012, 01:33 AM   #49
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not from me

The 9mm , .40 and .45 auto pistol carbines leave me a bit cold, just not enough punch, but I would feel well armed for most things with a lever .357 or .44 mag or one of Rugers defunct .44 auto loaders.
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Old August 25, 2012, 08:51 AM   #50
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Neither fish nor fowl.

It lacks the selective fire feature of a smg and lacks the rifle caliber of the carbine.

Still, it's probably better for home defense than a handgun since it is steadier and being lower recoil, allows for quicker follow up shots.
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