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Old August 20, 2012, 08:58 PM   #1
RH
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Why no respect for pistol cal carbines as SD weapons?

I'm curious why Americans don't consider 9mm or .45 carbines as "serious" military or SD weapons (or SHTF, if your tastes run in that direction). The 9mm and .45 have a long history as issued military long arms - from the Sten, Steryr, Thompson, to Uzi and MP5, and dozens in between to almost every military in the world. Granted, these were mostly SMG's or select fire, but why are the modern pistol cal. carbines dismissed as a novelty nd all discusion ends up as AK vs. AR? Other than rate of fire, modern carbines are the same as their forebear SMG's, and if they were good enough for hundreds of military units (inlc SEALS and other operators) why not for us civvies?
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Old August 20, 2012, 09:12 PM   #2
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I don't dimiss the choice, but if I'm going to carry something the size of a rifle, I'll take the rifle cartridge.

More power, range and ammunition capacity for just a little more bulk/weight.

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Old August 20, 2012, 09:16 PM   #3
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those military weapons are all sub machine guns, small, lightweight guns that spit a lot of lead very quickly. I however like the pistol cal carbine as a self defense/home defense round. it does not over penetrate, it's not nearly as loud as the usual suspect home defense calibers, and it's still lethal and accurate for just about any range that is defensible in court.

why so many don't use them? I haven't a clue. my list of home defense weapons in order of which I would grab first is
1. handgun: quick to load, quick to acquire target, compact and easy to move around corners. does not penetrate walls as easily as rifle cartridges
2. pistol cal carbine: not as easy to move around corners and increases both noise and velocity but still under heavy penetration levels.
3. standard carbine: last thing I would want to grab.

I don't follow the chain of thought that says your best option is a shotgun loaded with 00. I am fighting to protect my property and family, why would I want a gun that fires multiple projectiles at once in multiple directions and destroy my own stuff and possibly a loved one?

for survival situations or self defense outside the home however I would leave the 9mm at home and grab the 223 instead, more lethal and more accurate over range.
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Old August 20, 2012, 09:20 PM   #4
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I think 9mm carbines are great.

The Luger carbine was a great weapon IMO.

The HK94SG1 was a superb weapon, claw lock scope mount, factory zeroed Leupold 6X scope, HK93A2 stock with adjustable cheekpiece, Harris bipod and flash suppressor - out to 90 meters it was as accurate as any rifle.

But the shotgun does some things better and the 5.56 does other things better... I wouldn't choose a 45 or 9mm carbine in a break in - I'd choose a shotgun. And if I had some weird situation where I had to engage enemies past 25 yards, I wouldn't chose a 45 or 9mm carbine, I'd choose a rifle.
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Old August 20, 2012, 09:50 PM   #5
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Home defense they are great, same for close quarters, but for shtf unless you have it SBRed it loses its appeal personally. Because if I have something with an 18 to 20 in barrel I want to be able to engage targets at 200 yards minimum with it. That being said I own a PS-90 and if you had the accompanying 5.7 pistol then only needing one type of ammunition would be an advantage.
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Old August 20, 2012, 10:02 PM   #6
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They haven't caught on, that is true, the Marlins are out of production, I couldn't find the Rugers on their website. As others have noted, in an SD situation they prefer a rifle caliber, the usual argument for pistol caliber carbines is they are a good option in a jurisdiction where hand gun ownership is restricted, if not prohibited. With more people living in townhomes, condos, apartments over penetration is an important consideration hence the shotgun seems a better alternative.
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Old August 20, 2012, 10:37 PM   #7
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those military weapons are all sub machine guns, small, lightweight guns ...
You have obviously never held a Tommygun. It is lightweight, only when compared to a crew served weapon! And several of the other early SMG designs are also in the 8lb+ range.

Modern designs, using alloys and plastics are much lighter.

Quote:
I don't follow the chain of thought that says your best option is a shotgun loaded with 00. I am fighting to protect my property and family, why would I want a gun that fires multiple projectiles at once in multiple directions and destroy my own stuff and possibly a loved one?
it is difficult to determine sarcasm in text without a note identifying it, or using the little emoticons...

If its not sarcasm, describing a shotgun as "firing in multiple directions" really makes one wonder if you know what you are talking about. Shot loads do spread with distance, but at typical defensive ranges inside a house, not much larger than your fist. Now, if your house is huge, and you are shooting from one end of your olympic size pool to the other, then it will open up a lot more.

Pistol caliber carbines don't get that much respect because they are carbines. And except for the tiny fraction that are legal short barrel rifles, they are the same size as a carbine firing a rifle round.

Because of this, they have all of the drawbacks of a rifle (carbine size) and none of the advantages, (power range).

In the same size package one can get a .223 and with varmint bullets, actually less penetrative of walls than a lot of handgun bullets.

Rifle caliber carbines have their downsides as well, especially compared to handguns in close quarters. There's no free lunch.
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Old August 21, 2012, 12:24 AM   #8
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You will also find many of the supposed "hundreds of military units using pistol caliber carbines" moving away from them...

T.
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Old August 21, 2012, 04:53 AM   #9
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You have obviously never held a Tommygun. It is lightweight, only when compared to a crew served weapon! And several of the other early SMG designs are also in the 8lb+ range.
I recently got to play with one and lightweight is not a word that would come to mind at all, nor ergonomic.
Also played with a Sten gun, and I would not use that as an advertisement for a pistol cal carbine, it was a horrible horrible weapon!
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Old August 21, 2012, 06:52 AM   #10
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The Sten gun is practically an antique today but that doesn't speak to the original question. Personally, I have no idea if Americans like pistol caliber carbines or not, but I doubt they are as popular as AR-15 variations and there are good reasons.

In the military world, I believe intermediate caliber weapons basically outclassed submachine guns. They may or may not weigh less, depending on what particular weapons you choose to compare but 5.56, 5.45 and 7.62x39 are really more powerful than any 9mm or .45, and a 5.56 at least is easier to shoot.

Ah, but what have they done to the AR-15! Ever pick up an M4? What with the rail and all the gadgets that get tacked on, they are no longer as light as a plain old AR-15. And an M1 carbine is even lighter than that in the first place.

Has no one mentioned the Uzi yet? They were all the rage a couple of decades ago. Not bad, once you come to grips with grip safety but an AR-15 is easier to use, even though it is longer. I have not had a chance to handle any of the shorter versions of an AK. My son and I were both able to handle an old German MP-40 (I think it was). His first comment: it's heavy!

More as a matter of novelty than anything else, I'd rather like to have a bolt action 9mm Largo.
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Old August 21, 2012, 07:05 AM   #11
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I don't plan being in a self defense or SHTF situation with a carbine, I have some good handguns for that operation. However, I have the 4595TS and the JHP, which use the same magazine, if the opportunity should arise.
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Old August 21, 2012, 08:05 AM   #12
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Having done it myself, try lugging an M3 and a few 30 rd. mags around. Heavy!

The 9mm subguns have merit, but those that are reliable are hard to get and costly, e.g., the MP-5. The clones are north of 2 grand. Many only come in open-bolt, like the Swedish K configuration which isn't too pure in a household setting. Or are full auto only. The Camp Carbines were pretty good, but they aren't being produced any longer. Many reported reliability issues.

The modern M-4 (or M4orgery) is as small and light as most 9mm subguns and fires the .223. No contest. It's replacing most subguns in most applications, including home defense.
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Old August 21, 2012, 08:20 AM   #13
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Quote:
Having done it myself, try lugging an M3 and a few 30 rd. mags around. Heavy!

The 9mm subguns have merit, but those that are reliable are hard to get and costly, e.g., the MP-5. The clones are north of 2 grand. Many only come in open-bolt, like the Swedish K configuration which isn't too pure in a household setting. Or are full auto only.

I had a full auto only Stemple 76/45. It took M3 magazines and was a heavy open bolt gun. While it was a fun toy to shoot, it would not have been my first choice for self defense.

Quote:
The modern M-4 (or M4orgery) is as small and light as most 9mm subguns and fires the .223. No contest. It's replacing most subguns in most applications, including home defense.
+1

An M4, a shotgun or Mini 14 makes more sense as a home defense long arm to me.
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Old August 21, 2012, 09:40 AM   #14
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Another issue that no one has touched on so far is how expensive most modern semi-auto pistol-caliber carbines are.

The Beretta CX4, Kriss Vector, Thompson replicas, HK94, 9mm AR-15s, etc., etc., aren't exactly inexpensive. Even good-quality USGI M1 Carbines will set you back a pretty penny these days.

The Kel-Tec Sub2000 (if you can find one) is an obvious exception, as are the Hi-Point carbines (which many folks just won't consider).
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Old August 21, 2012, 09:50 AM   #15
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it does not over penetrate, it's not nearly as loud as the usual suspect home defense calibers, and it's still lethal and accurate for just about any range that is defensible in court.
An AR firing a good defensive 5.56 round will over-penetrate less than a pistol caliber carbine firing a premium JHP. The 5.56 will be more lethal, while still having quick follow up shots.

As far as volume, auditory exclusion will most likely come into play if you ever have to use a firearm to defend yourself, so it is not something that I personally worry about.
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Old August 21, 2012, 10:38 AM   #16
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My first choice is my Sub-2000.

9MM, damn accurate, short enough and light enough to get around with, will not blow through three walls and kill my neighbor like my 5.56 could.

I see it as a better choice for me because it folds easily under the bed, weighs next to nothing, deploys quick and easy.

With 600 lumens glaring out the front end, I will see, hit, and most likely stop whatever threat even half asleep.

Using my handgun I would stand little chance of doing anything short of scaring whatever the threat is to death.

SHTF, or other survival situations, I would bet on my AR15 in more open environments, the subbie would be used for cleaning buildings something like it. I cannot imagine what it would sound like to pull the trigger on that AR in a room with no plugs in

I also cannot imagine anything living that would stand back up after a hit from that 9, I would bet the average burglar is not wearing body armor...
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Old August 21, 2012, 11:26 AM   #17
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9MM, damn accurate, short enough and light enough to get around with, will not blow through three walls and kill my neighbor like my 5.56 could
The idea that pistol calibers will penetrate walls less than a defensive 5.56 round is subject to several variables, including the type of ammunition being used, and barriers that are being fired through.

Last edited by allaroundhunter; August 21, 2012 at 11:45 AM. Reason: False assumption on my part...
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Old August 21, 2012, 11:33 AM   #18
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Safety slugs in the 9mm, barrier defeating rounds in the 5.56....

Not a misconception on my part, if either would do otherwise it would be a mis advertisement of the ammunition manufacturer.

I am sure there are rounds that will stop at a wall with the 5.56, and rounds that will penetrate them with the 9mm.

But they are not what is loaded in my weapons
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Old August 21, 2012, 11:36 AM   #19
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My father has a 9mm pistol and a Kel-tec 9mm carbine. He kits them together along with other supplies has his grab-n-go SHTF kit. He figures that he would have two weapons with a common ammo and then just carry more of 1 ammo type instead. Also he still has a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with #4 has his primary home defense weapon.

With additional time to prepare, also to be dragged along are several other rifles/pistols of various calibers.

My grab bag contains a .357, and 12 gauge. As funds allow I will be adding an AR15 to the mix. My HD weapon is chambered for 9mm Mak, and would also be tossed into the kit if we had to leave in a hurry. The Mak might seem like a 'weak' caliber to some, it will still work for HD without tearing through my house completely.

Given 15 minutes extra, additional weapons and supplies would be loaded up into the vehicles to go.

But I think any SHTF kit does need a semi-auto rifle with at least modest magazine capacity.
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Old August 21, 2012, 11:42 AM   #20
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Safety slugs in the 9mm, barrier defeating rounds in the 5.56....

Not a misconception on my part, if either would do otherwise it would be a mis advertisement of the ammunition manufacturer.

I am sure there are rounds that will stop at a wall with the 5.56, and rounds that will penetrate them with the 9mm.

But they are not what is loaded in my weapons
Fair enough, and, IMO, a good choice in ammunition for the two.

Typically I would not consider safety slugs a good 9mm choice, but with the added velocity coming out of a carbine barrel that would be a great help to the round.

I apologize for jumping the gun and thinking that you were just assuming that the 5.56 would overpenetrate just because it was a rifle cartridge
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Old August 21, 2012, 02:17 PM   #21
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I don't see an advantage in carrying a pistol caliber carbine just for common ammo. If I have to carry the weight and size of a rifle firing piece then I want it to fire rifle cartridges which are much more versatile than any pistol cartridge.
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Old August 21, 2012, 03:20 PM   #22
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@allaroundhunter, No harm no foul, I have planned to set up a few tests, I actually want to see what happens to targets behind a couple sheet rock boards after the safety slug impacts them, and I want to set some on the other side of an old car door or something and see what the other rounds are capable of.

All of this is a new world from the ownership point, the Sub-2000, and the AR15 are both new purchases. I get the physics of it all, but I generally do not trust much until I have seen it.

I can do the math and determine energy of a projectile and its mass, what I do not have other than internet research is how different projectiles will maintain their mass and shape, and how that affects different materials. Obviously 70-115gr of wood hitting a target would behave different that the same mass in steel at the same velocity regardless of equal energy the material performance characteristics would vary.

And trust me it would not be the first time something performed other than advertised, seen a few strange things in my life.

Right now I figure it like this, *if* someone were to need to be shot by being in my house intending harm, my family is already in danger, taking well thought out reasonable precautions in ammunition and weapons choice is step one, hitting what I want to is step two. For that the folding 9mm carbine is my personal best choice from what I own.

I contemplated a judge with buckshot, but figured my chances of getting them all in the target were less and overshooting / over penetration would be more of a concern...

That, and the videos of them hitting ballistics gel are awesome...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAgC6B5yiyQ

I would not shoot someone in my driveway stealing my car or raiding my shed, hell I hope I never have to shoot anyone, but I would if I had to protect myself or my family, for that I figure I have one chance, better make it count.
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Old August 21, 2012, 04:20 PM   #23
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IMHO, Glaser Safety Slugs are a poor choice.
link
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Old August 21, 2012, 04:34 PM   #24
Sabre9mm
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Most interesting...

See anything I can think of, someone has done and posted on the internet.
Ohhhh the implications of that...

So any other suggestions on other frangible rounds and or those safer?
I know the concept of a *safe* bullet is an oxymoron, but certainly alternatives exist to some degree.

Soft targets ( Presumably clothed ), with good terminal ballistics, and low over penetration.
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Old August 21, 2012, 05:06 PM   #25
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I think this is a good link for ammo selection.



edit to add: Make sure any ammo selected functions in your firearm before relying upon it. The best 9mm load in the world does no good if it jams in your gun.

Last edited by 2damnold4this; August 21, 2012 at 05:20 PM.
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