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Old June 18, 2012, 06:44 PM   #1
son-of-a-gun
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Anyone here with Beretta 92 FS?

hello guys,

i need your help:

for research matters on a book publication i have to find out a few things about Beretta Model 92 FS which the manual can't provide.
I hope someone here has got this firearm and can answer me a few questions on that.

1. When chamber loaded and cocked (ready to fire) and the manual savety
then is set to "On"

in which position the hammer will come to rest?

a) in the half-cocked position (hammer drop catch)?

or

b) in the fully decocked position?

2. When chamber loaded and cocked (ready to fire) and
then the hammer is being decocked by pulling the trigger while catching the
hammer by thumb sliding it into half-cocked position (leaving the manual savety "OFF"

will

a) automatic safety become active which separates the firing pin from the hammer and interrupts the connection between trigger and sear?

or

b) automatic safety stay inactive because of manual savety still "OFF".

Would be great if someone could tell from experience.

Note: Only Model 92 FS

cheers
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Old June 18, 2012, 07:03 PM   #2
David the Gnome
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When you set the safety to "on" it will decock the hammer, returning it all the way forward in the safe position, not in the half cock position. It is not possible for the gun to fire with the safety on because the piece which allows the hammer to strike the firing pin is inside that safety. That piece rotates out of alignment with the firing pin when you flip the safety on. If you look at this animation you can see what I'm talking about http://www.genitron.com/basics/beret...eretta-92.html .

If you manually decock it is possible for the gun to fire only if the trigger is pulled all the way back (removing the firing pin block). Carrying the gun in the half-cock position is less than ideal, as it moves the hammer back from its resting position, but unless there is a failure in the trigger safety it can't fire.

Hopefully that makes sense after watching the animation on that website.
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Old June 18, 2012, 09:04 PM   #3
iamdb
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1)B

2)? automatic safety?
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Old June 19, 2012, 09:49 AM   #4
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As explained, activating the thumb safety decocks the pistol to the hammer-down position. If you press the trigger with the safety on, the trigger is very soft and nothing else happens, since the trigger is essentially disconnected from everything else. If you return the thumb safety to the up or deactivated position, you can fire the pistol with a heavier, longer trigger pull that cocks and releases the hammer. This is what is called "double action." Firing from the hammer-back position is called "single action" and the trigger pull is lighter and shorter.

If you are referring to the firing pin block as the "automatic safety" then, also as explained by David the Gnome, it is not affected by the position of the thumb safety. Since it is not deactivated, I can understand you referring to it as an automatic safety, but that is not a term that is commonly used.

The animation to which you were referred is excellent. The 92FS is a highly respected and widely owned handgun, so you can get plenty of help if you need it. Tell us more about your book.
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Old June 19, 2012, 11:02 AM   #5
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@david the gnome:

thank you for the link to the excellent animation that showed me so much about the internals this weapon.

@thank you.

@tailgator

thank you
yes, the firing pin block, that was what i meant with the term "automatic savety" (it was referred to in the beretta manual that way)

@all

but there is one point i still don't understand as not shown in the animation:

when deckocking manually by catching the hammer by thumb sliding it down -
WILL it definitely come to rest in half-cocked position?

When looking at the animation one could guess it wouldn't because you pull the trigger all the way back (so as to fire) and that's when the trigger bar pulls away the sear from the hammer allowing no studs to be there the hammer half-cocked catch can rest in.

or am i wrong-guessing?

The book will be about a killing-spree that took place in germany in 2009 - committed with that very weapon.
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Old June 19, 2012, 11:16 AM   #6
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Goes all the way down past half cock. if you still have the trigger back. If finger off trigger then half cock.
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Old June 19, 2012, 01:02 PM   #7
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Never do number two (pulling the trigger and riding the hammer down with your thumb)! If your thumb slips, the gun goes off, and then the slide will recoil tearing the snot out of your hand and or breaking bones. Use the decocker. That is what it is for.

Oh and as far as .....
"The book will be about a killing-spree that took place in germany in 2009 - committed with that very weapon. "

That weapon committed nothing...guns don't kill people. People kill people.
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Old June 19, 2012, 02:49 PM   #8
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many thanks@blackamos and @twobit

that's what seems logical to me - cause once the trigger is released the trigger bar pushes the sear back against the hammer and (if that point is not past yet) the hammer can find rest in the half-cock notch.
And it seems clear that there is danger involved, just like twobit described.

two questions then arise in my mind:

1. Is it possible when manually cocking the hammer to get it in half-cocked position?

2. Is it possible when someone drops their fully cocked weapon to the ground for the hammer to be accidentally released into half-cocked position?
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Old June 21, 2012, 12:16 AM   #9
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i have to specify those questions:

1. Is it possible when manually cocking the hammer to get it in half-cocked position? - except from sliding off, naturally

2. Is it possible when someone drops their fully cocked weapon to the ground for the hammer to be accidentally released into half-cocked position?

specifying: would on dropping some part get broken to cause this - mainly the sear? (notch broken)
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Old June 21, 2012, 12:54 PM   #10
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1) With the safety off (that is, ready-to-fire), the hammer clicks through the "half-cocked" position whether you manually pull the hammer back or use the trigger to move the hammer. You can leave the hammer in this half-cocked position with the safety off. With the safety on (cannot fire), the hammer returns to the fully forward position and will not move with trigger pulling.

2) IMO it would be irresponsible, even unrealistic, to carry the 92FS fully cocked. That said, I can't comment on what internal mechanics would cause it to return to half-cocked. It would be an odd circumstance.
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Old June 23, 2012, 09:26 AM   #11
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thanks @andywest:

Quote:
the hammer clicks through the "half-cocked"
1. does that mean when i pull the trigger (in DA/mode) just a bit that i can rest the hammer in half cocked position (instead of full) ?

Quote:
IMO it would be irresponsible, even unrealistic, to carry the 92FS fully cocked.
i did not mean someone carrying around a weapon that way but imagine someone just shot the first round - weapon reloaded and fully cocked again -
and that someone gets shot himself with his gun falling to the ground:

could the fully cocked hammer then (because of the shock) be realeased and return to half-cocked and if so - would internally something get broken so the weapon would be damaged and get unuseable afterwards?
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Old June 23, 2012, 06:24 PM   #12
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1. when you hit the safety decock, it fully decocks to DA. If you use the lever there is a block in place of the firing pin.
2. Automatic safety will NOT be active. Note, when you squeeze the trigger and the safety is off, the gun is in fire mode. When you use the decock lever, it actually rotates a sere block and blocks the firing pin from being hit by the hammer at all.



in response to the "irresponsible to carry the 92FS cocked":
It's actually close to the preferred combat carry technique of the military, (round chambered, pistol off safe). I understand this is not correct by the book, but this way a round is ready to go, and you don't have to fingerdrill the safeties, which are cumbersome and awkward when the adrenaline is pumping.

Last edited by insomni; June 23, 2012 at 06:30 PM.
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Old June 23, 2012, 07:31 PM   #13
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Quote:
1. does that mean when i pull the trigger (in DA/mode) just a bit that i can rest the hammer in half cocked position (instead of full) ?
1) Yes. You can pull the trigger just a bit in DA mode (safety off / ready-to-fire) and rest the hammer in half-cocked position.

Quote:
could the fully cocked hammer then (because of the shock) be realeased and return to half-cocked and if so - would internally something get broken so the weapon would be damaged and get unuseable afterwards?
2) I don't know. This is a technical question that should be answered by someone very familiar with the internal mechanics of the 92FS.
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Old June 24, 2012, 10:53 AM   #14
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thanks again @andywest

i will specify the question for people that are

Quote:
very familiar with the internal mechanics of the 92FS.
theory:

1. the weapon (ready to fire - fully cocked) falls to the ground

2. the hammer is from the shock released and caught by half-cock notch

3. afterwards a weapon expert states that the weapon is fully functionable

Ist that possible because of assuming that internally something must have been broken to release the hammer from full-cock notch (sear, trigger bar ect.) ?
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Old June 25, 2012, 02:05 PM   #15
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Quote:
in response to the "irresponsible to carry the 92FS cocked":
It's actually close to the preferred combat carry technique of the military, (round chambered, pistol off safe).
Chambered yes, cocked no. Very different. I agree with AndyWest that carrying the pistol fully cocked would be irresponsible, because it would necessarily be in a single action state with safety off (since the safety is also a decocker.)
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Old June 25, 2012, 04:18 PM   #16
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Hey son-of-a-gun:

I'm curious why the difference between half and fully cocked matters when considering the 92FS. You can fire the 92FS from half or fully cocked with a trigger pull. If you or your subject are thinking of 1911s, the mechanics are definitely different...
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Old June 26, 2012, 04:02 AM   #17
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hey andy,

i'm an investigative journalist writing a book about a killing spree that occured in 2009 in germany. The weapon used was beretta 92 fs.

It is not about firing fully or half-cocked but the situation the weapon has been found beside the shot suspected offender.

It was found like this:


so it's half-cocked and safety is "off".

The second day after the happenings the offender is said to have shot himself dead with a put-on shot straight in the middle of his forehead, while all the day before the police has said to have shot him dead.

so now it's about to find out the trouth - the weapon said to have been found with a round chambered and still 8 rounds in the magazine.

if the offender shot himself then the hammer should be in a fully cocked state again.

The weapon experts examining the weapon afterwards stated that it is fully functionable.

But there has said to have been an incident when police found the shot offender with the weapon laying right on his chest with hands on.
For security reasons an officer kicked it away from the body with his shoe-tip causing the weapon to slide 2-3 meters over the ground.

That's the story behind my questions.

Mainly I want to know if the kicking of the officer could have caused the hammer to be released from fully-cocked state.
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Old June 26, 2012, 09:47 AM   #18
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Quote:
if the offender shot himself then the hammer should be in a fully cocked state again.
That seems to me to be a reasonable premise.

It would take a bizarre circumstance, if it is possible at all, to make a 92 go from fully cocked to half-cocked by kicking it across the ground. It seems to me that the kick and skid would have to simultaneously pull the trigger and put the right pressure on the hammer to gently lower it to the half-cock notch. Can anyone else see that happening? Or provide another means of accomplishing the feat? If you are looking for something that smells fishy, that scenario is like week-old sushi.
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Old June 30, 2012, 12:51 PM   #19
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Quote:
would have to simultaneously pull the trigger and put the right pressure on the hammer to gently lower it to the half-cock notch.
@ tailgator:

thanks for your input.

you are perfectly right on that.

what i further have to know is if there is a way of getting to half-cocked notch if the trigger is NOT pulled.
That is: Kicking the weapon (with some force maybe) to have it land right on top of the hammer causing it to break away the single-action notch or the notch on the sear that interlocks with single-action (full-cocked notch) and thus releasing the hammer being caught by half-cocked notch.

But as these parts are not made of some cheap plastics I can't see this happening? Can someone?
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Old June 30, 2012, 04:03 PM   #20
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I would have to wonder if the Beretta in question had ever had a "trigger job"
done? Trigger jobs, inproperly done, could cause all kinds of havoc with the internals of a weapon possibly like the one you describe and the half cock caught the hammer from falling all the way.
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Old June 30, 2012, 11:03 PM   #21
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@marred:

thanks for your input.

The gun in question was used and belonged to a sports-shooter who bought it in 91. It is unknown if ever some modifications have been made since.

all that's for sure is that the weapon expert who examined and fired the gun afterwards stated that it was fully functionable.
About modifications like a trigger job nothing had been stated by him.

Question:

Would - if this had been done (unproperly) - and thus failing

1. the gun remain fully functionable?

2. the expert not have found out about it?
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Old July 1, 2012, 03:05 AM   #22
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When people have trigger jobs done to lighten the effort required to pull the trigger you always hear them say things like,it has a hair trigger or you would only have to breath on it to make it go off. It is quite possible that dropping it would make the hammer fall to half cock and still be functional. Depending on the level of dissasembly the expert did he might not of noticed it, I would think if he fired it he would of noticed an especially light trigger pull.

It would even not be unheard of a gun being so worn out from use as to make it unsafe but still operational. I don't know if the Beretta is capable of this same failure but a 1911 45. cal. pistol I have suffered from "hammer follow" which after firing a round the hammer would follow the slide only to be stopped by the half cocked safety. I believe the sear was so worn out from shooting so much. The "hammer follow" would only happen intermittently at first but just got worse with use yet this gun was still fully functional.

These are just my guesses based on my experience and maybe someone with some Beretta gunsmithing experience might be able to prove or disprove my theories. I read about that shooting and am truly sorry it happened. Good luck with your book.
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Old July 1, 2012, 04:17 AM   #23
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So basically this gun was found next to the suspect in the half cocked position after a cop claimed he kicked it out of his dead hand?

One would assume had the suspect fired this final shot to his own forehead, the gun would then be in a fully cocked position. Then again contrary to popular perception, a bullet to the head doesnt necessarily result in instant death, as the shooting of Gabrielle giffords demonstrated. So its always possible in his dying moments the suspect in some way did this to the gun, possibly in some spasmodic muscular action as he was dying, or in some attempt to fire the gun again before losing conciousness. It sounds a little farfetched, but its certainly possible.

Of course the other options are that the gun ended up like this as it was kicked, or one or more of the cops are lying and manipulated the gun themselves in some way prior to the picture being taken.
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Old July 2, 2012, 01:22 PM   #24
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son-of-a-gun said:

Quote:
what i further have to know is if there is a way of getting to half-cocked notch if the trigger is NOT pulled.
That is: Kicking the weapon [...]
Just now I was testing this. With the safety off (ready-to-fire) and hammer fully down/forward, I was smacking the side of the slide very hard with my hand in a backwards direction (toward the hammer). I was able to get the hammer to half-cock every few smacks, especially when smacking near the front or near rear serrations to get grip. I think a kick could do the same.

I don't have a video camera but maybe another 92FS owner could duplicate this and record it?
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Old July 2, 2012, 01:39 PM   #25
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An easier way to accomplish the same thing (duh):

Hammer down, safety off (ready to fire). Smack the pistol hard right on the front of the muzzle. Barrel and slide retract, hammer stays half-cocked.

son-of-a-gun: In other words, if the hammer was down, safety off, and someone kicked the pistol right in the front, the hammer would be half-cocked exactly like your picture.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg smack.jpg (56.8 KB, 29 views)
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