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Old August 19, 2012, 08:38 AM   #1
Rifleman1776
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what is it with Remingtons?

I know the old problem of Remington bolt action cf rifles going off spontaneously has, supposedly, been fixed.
But, I have read that the 'improved' bolt is still subject to unwanted firings.
It is hard for me to accept that a company like Remington would continue to ship a product like this.
Would appreciate some insight about their current bolt rifles and this safety issue.
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Old August 19, 2012, 09:27 AM   #2
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Which remingtons went off like this?

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Old August 19, 2012, 09:40 AM   #3
ROGER4314
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I've owned a lot of Remington 700's in various flavors and calibers and shot them for years. I have NEVER had a problem like you described. NEVER! I shot matches for years elbow to elbow with other shooters and never saw an unplanned discharge. Sorry, I'm just not buying it. If that was REALLY true, Remington would be out of business pronto.

The triggers are adjustable and it's far more likely that a newbie with a screwdriver readjusted the trigger mechanism, wear occurred on the sear because of poor engagement and a failure occurred. Is that the fault of the rifle?

Flash

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Old August 19, 2012, 09:49 AM   #4
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I've owned 2 700's, 2 788's and am about to own a 722. I have NEVER had one go off by it's self either. Probably someone adjusted the trigger down to nothing which the factory trigger isn't designed for, or is scapegoating Remington for their own mistake.
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Old August 19, 2012, 09:51 AM   #5
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First off I want to point out, any gun can malfunction, they are machines after all.

I've seen the documentary on Remington's. Assuming they were right and did "go off" when they weren't suppose. There were some traget events in that film............................................BUT.........................every friggen one of them (injuries and property damage) could have been avoided if one would follow the 4 basic safety rules.

Lets assume that the trigger did release when no one had their finger on it.

OK, lets take the case where the round went though the camper injuring the child..............what would happen if that rifle was pointed up and down range like it was suppose to be...... no injury, no property damage.

Go back and watch the documentary again and each time, there was property damage or injury, one or more of the four basic rules were violated.

I've screwed up clearing guns I thought were empty and weren't (every time I unload a gun I point it in a safe direction and let the hammer fall). But when I screwed up and let a round off unexpectedly, it was pointed at my pistol target which has a safe background (friggin mountain). In the field I point it at a dirt bank or something similar. It if goes off, nothing is hurt.

Also I've never seen the need for carrying a round in the chamber while hunting. If on the range and not pointing at the target my long guns have a ECI (Empty Chamber indicator) in the chamber. It's impossible to have a round go off if there is one of those puppies in the chamber.

RANT OFF

Now as to Remington 700s, I have a Remington BDL Varmint in 223 that I got to use in LE in 1978, it still shoots today and has never gone off when it wasn't suppose to. It has had some pretty ruff treatment, Bouncing around in the trunk of a police car for over 15 years. I've even taken it to Guard Drills and Jumped with it (I was in an Airborne Unit). To my knowledge that rifle has never been taken out of the stock, I bought it new. I'd trust my life (and have) on that trigger.

I also have a Remington action I used to build my grand son a hunting rifle. It was a piece of junk when I got it. The trigger looked like someone was trying to modify it..............would it malfunction? I don't know, maybe, maybe not. Since it was for my grandson I put a timmley trigger in it just to make me feel better.

Timmly triggers are safe, good, and relatively cheap. If you're worried about it, replace it, if not then use your Remington trigger.

Personally I'm a Model 70 guy, but its not because of the Remington triggers.

I think Remington got a bad rap on the trigger deal.
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Old August 19, 2012, 10:00 AM   #6
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Amen to that kraigway! Never point a gun where you don't intend to shoot! The only complaint I had was when adjusting my 223 VLS, I was either 3 lbs, or 6 lbs. I couldn't get a happy medium. 3 lbs was just too light for cold weather and cold fingers, but that's the ONLY problem I had with the trigger group.
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Old August 19, 2012, 10:19 AM   #7
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The only problem I've seen was an individual who fired as he was unloading his gun.He immediately said "it went of by itself !!" .But I had been watching and told him "you had your finger on the trigger ".
Yes it's a mechanical device and can fail. I've adjusted many of them especially to remove the "lawyer trigger " pull weight. There is one individual a supposed "gunsmith" who is a major charactor in the anti-Remington story. He appears only rarely on anothe r forum and is just ridiculed by the others .His only appearance has been to condemn Remington's trigger.
If you want to adjust the trigger make sure you really know how to do it ,not just changing the springs ! Or find someone who knows how.
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Old August 19, 2012, 11:45 AM   #8
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I agree with every one of you. But there have been documented instances of the Rem 700 having unplanned discharges. The unsafe handling had nothing to do with the fact the rifles went off without a trigger pull. Remington admitted up to it a number of years ago and changed their design. Now, I recently saw an article that said there were still some of these unplanned discharges happening with the 700.
I also agree it is bad for business. Remington is far from the leader in American bolt action rifle sales.
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Old August 19, 2012, 12:22 PM   #9
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I am going to wave the big red BS flag on this one.

Remington's rebuttal to the hatchet job:

http://gunblog.com/remingtons-respon...gton-700-story
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Old August 19, 2012, 12:25 PM   #10
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ok some reports may have been taken a bit out of context by someone.
1. there has never been a single reported case of a 700 going off spontaneously, it may have fired if dropped on a hard surface with the safety off but there is no such gun that has ever just gone off of it's own accord(the very definition of spontaneous).

2. all mechanical devices are prone to failures and guns are no exception. the remington 700 is without a doubt the most prolifically used bolt action rifle in the world. of the several million rifles out there, there have been only a handful of cases of accidental firings reported in model 700s made after the late 80s.

3. the lower of a reputation that a gun has, the more people are going to want too go with the flow and report the smallest of malfunctions to aid the consensus that a weapon is bad and the same principle feeds good reputations. for instance there are many more people willing to bash hi point handguns than to laud them but at the same time very few people are willing to bash heckler and kochs and instead try to post positively. since the model 700 got a bad rap for drop fires for years that same stigma carries over today and even the idiots carrying a rifle with a round in the chamber and safety off fight to get their word in edgewise to prove that the 700 is unsafe because they tripped and slammed their rifle against a boulder which caused it to go off.

I grew up with a remington 700 and my older brother taught me from the very beginning that there is no such thing as a safety on a gun. instead I was always taught to carry with the bolt handle up so that the firing pin is completely disengaged. I still carry my bolt guns like this when I hunt no matter the model, and I have never once had a drop fire, spontaneous fire or any other malfunction which resulted in an unintentional discharge.
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Old August 19, 2012, 12:32 PM   #11
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Documented, and the truth are not the same thing. People and lawyers are willing to fabricate when they are looking for six figure settlements. I carried my Remington loaded and on safety slung over my shoulder with no unintended discharges.
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Old August 19, 2012, 12:54 PM   #12
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A footnote to my previous post, CNBC was also behind "stringing up" George Zimmerman by blurring the pics of the injuries Zimmerman had on his head, and splicing the 911 tape in attempt to paint the incident into a hate crime. They are anti gun, and are ready to throw anybody to the dogs in order to further their cause.
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Old August 19, 2012, 01:37 PM   #13
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I once had my Rem 700 discharge when I took off the safety. My fault all the way. I was in the process of shooting an elk and pulled the trigger with the safety on. Furthermore I had lightened the trigger pull, apparently too much. After readjusting the pull upward, I could not get it to repeat, empty of course. Never a problem again. However the rifle now wears a Timney trigger. Don't blame the gun, blame the nut behind the gun.
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Old August 19, 2012, 03:48 PM   #14
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I fixed two Remington triggers that were dangerous. ( not my guns) You can thank WD-40 for both of them. They were gunked up terribly. Some carb cleaner and slight adjustments and the all important safety checks and they were good to go. I had my .222 discharge once when emptying it because my finger slipped off of the trigger guard. (trigger is adjusted very light)It was pointed down in a safe direction as it should have been and there was no harm other than to my ego. Certainly not the rifle's fault. I'd imagine that is how most of the Remingtons "go off by themselves", with a little help, or when someone "adjusts" the trigger without knowing what they're doing.
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Old August 19, 2012, 03:53 PM   #15
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Remington has documented problems with their trigger going back to 1946 when the engineer (Mike Walker) who designed the trigger went to Remington management and proposed a new design. They decided not to make the change.

In that time there have been somewhere between 5,000-10,000 (depending on whose source you believe) reported incidents of Remingtons firing without the trigger being pulled. Remington managment used to keep records, but they conviently decided they need some extra file space and destroyed all the records about 30 years ago.

Quote:
there has never been a single reported case of a 700 going off spontaneously, it may have fired if dropped on a hard surface with the safety off but there is no such gun that has ever just gone off of it's own accord.

I've got one that has done it on more than one occasion. The trigger has never been modified since leaving the factory and it was as clean as is possible to keep a trigger mechanism. See the paragraph above. There are lots of others.

Quote:
I am going to wave the big red BS flag on this one.

Remington's rebuttal to the hatchet job:

http://gunblog.com/remingtons-respon...gton-700-story
Remingtons rebuttal was carefully scripted by company lawyers. Lawyers spend years in school learning how to not tell the truth without crossing the line into a lie. This is a perfect example.

Quote:
Which remingtons went off like this?
Any Remington bolt action rifle made from 1946-2007 could do it at any time, or may never do it. Remington changed to almost the exact trigger in 2007 that was proposed by Mike Walker in 1946.

Quote:
I've owned 2 700's, 2 788's and am about to own a 722. I have NEVER had one go off by it's self either. Probably someone adjusted the trigger down to nothing which the factory trigger isn't designed for, or is scapegoating Remington for their own mistake.
Improperly adjusting the trigger, or having a dirty trigger improves the odds of it happening. But there are too many cases of perfectly clean, unmodifed triggers doing this to blame all the problems on the shooters. Just because it never happened to you proves nothing. I've never been struck by lightening, but I know it happens.

Quote:
OK, lets take the case where the round went though the camper injuring the child..............what would happen if that rifle was pointed up and down range like it was suppose to be...... no injury, no property damage.
Partially correct. If my gun fires, whether I pull the trigger or not I am responsible for where the bullet goes. If the gun fires because of a factory defect, that is on the company who made the rifle. There is no safe direction for an accidential discharge. Even if the gun had been pointed up would it have made the mother feel better if it had come down and hit another hunter 2 miles away. Just an incident happened a few months ago when an Amish girl was killed when a shooter fired his muzzle loader into the air in order to unload his gun. A shot fired into the ground can ricochett or fragment injuring others in the area. In fact the bullet that hit the boy struck the trailer twice changing direction each time before hitting her son. It may well have done the same thing if it had gone off pointing down into the ground in front of her. Even if her son had been standing behind her. There is no way to predict where a bullet will end up when it ricochets.

Quote:
But, I have read that the 'improved' bolt is still subject to unwanted firings.
I have heard of no problems with the new trigger doing this unless it was perfectly clear that the owner had modifed the trigger. You do sometimes hear of ANYgun doing this if the trigger is improperly modified. Remington is the only design that has a habit of doing it on it's own. And the evidence is overwhelming.

This isn't something new, lots of guys are blaming CNBC of a hatchet job, but anyone who wasn't fully aware of Remingtons problems at least 30 years ago is either just getting into shooting or has been living under a rock for 30 years.
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Old August 19, 2012, 04:02 PM   #16
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I'm with KRAGWY. I've owned a bunch of 700s and 788s dating back to 1972. I still own 2 700s and 2 788s and have never had a misfire of any kind.
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Old August 19, 2012, 04:14 PM   #17
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jmr40, you are lumping the 788's with the 700's and 722's? It's not the same trigger group.
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Old August 19, 2012, 04:21 PM   #18
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so JMR40, you mean to tell me that you had a remington 700 that magically went off on it's own without any outside stimuli?
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Old August 19, 2012, 04:57 PM   #19
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I've got a new SPS with the X-Mark Pro trigger. Mine is crisp and after setting the pull (per their instructions) to 3-1/2 lbs works just fine. I think the tinkerers are at fault with that issue.
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Old August 19, 2012, 07:02 PM   #20
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Personal experience: I have a Remington 700 that has discharged when the safety has been moved to "Fire". It's a fairly early 7 mm Mag that my Dad bought used for an Idaho elk hunt. I had the "recall" modification done by a gunsmith, allowing the bolt to be opened without releasing the safety. But, sometimes, if you pull the trigger with the safety engaged, then release the safety, the firing pin will drop. Why? Well, in this case, the first owner f...ooled with the trigger. The sealant is scraped off, and the tension screw is backed out as far as it will go. It was long ago, as I tried to tighten it and found it frozen. My solution will be to replace the trigger. However, I don't think it is an inherently bad design. But an incompetent (my Dad would say "shoemaker") messing with the trigger is bad juju. My more recent acquisition 700 is flawless.
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Old August 19, 2012, 07:07 PM   #21
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Quote:
what is it with Remingtons?
Nothing, really. They've made millions of them and the vast majority of Remington shooters are very pleased with their rifles. I've got a couple in the locker that have given me nary a problem.
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Old August 19, 2012, 08:28 PM   #22
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The Remington trigger used prior to 2007 is far different from any other trigger on any other gun design. It is overly complex and prone to failure. Read this. It is one of the better explainations.

http://www.rifflawfirm.com/areas/pdf/remington4.pdf

I'm not a Remington hater. I have several, but I know what can happen with them. The odds of it happening are rare. Most folks can own a rifle for a lifetime and never see a problem. Especially with guns made after 1982. Most of the issues happen with older guns. Mine is a 1974 rifle. Even though I've personally seen it happen, I wouldn't let that stop me from buying a Remington if they were making something I wanted. They are not currently however.

Remington claims, truthfully I believe, that they have never had a gun malfunction unless it had been tampered with or unless it were dirty. There are 2 problems with that. #1, it is impossible to inspect a Remington trigger, let alone clean it. All those tiny, complex parts with close tolerences are fully enclosed.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...9QEwCg&dur=234

http://s1129.photobucket.com/albums/...rent=003-2.jpg

As opposed to other guns open designs which can be inspected and cleaned.

http://s1129.photobucket.com/albums/...rent=006-1.jpg

The other problem is the trigger connector. A good diagram is in the above article. A TINY bit of debris, something no larger than a single grain of unburned powder that gets in between the connector and the actual trigger results in the trigger already being pulled. The guns safety is the only thing holding back the firing pin. When the owner releases the safety the gun could fire instantly, or several seconds later. If you have a round chambered, and the safety off it could fire at any time, even if you are not touching the gun.

This is the reason Remington changed their safety design in 1982. On older guns the safety locked the bolt down. You had to move the safety to the fire position in order to get a chambered round out. On newer guns you can open the bolt and remove a chambered round with the gun on safe. Remington knew very well there was potential for serious problems. This does not address the issue, but does make it far less likely for a gun to discharge.

It is almost impossible to duplicate because as soon as that tiny spec of debris falls out, often from the recoil of the shot, the problem goes away and will often never happen again.

While Remington blames the owners for not keeping their guns clean, they design a complex fully enclosed trigger that is impossible to clean. Something as small as a single grain of powder could make the gun dangerous, while any other gun would still function with a handful of mud in the trigger mechanism. The new 2007 trigger does away with the connector. Just as Mike Walker strongly urged Remongton to do back in the 40's.
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Old August 19, 2012, 08:41 PM   #23
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I have two M700s and have never had a problem with either.
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Old August 19, 2012, 08:43 PM   #24
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I am most definetly not a remmy guy. Savage all the way, But i do know lots of people that are remmy guys. I have never seen one go off by mistake either. Im with the others here,,Im going with a big BS on this one
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Old August 19, 2012, 09:01 PM   #25
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Well, I am baffled by all the conflicting info. I've been a fan of Remington for there accuracy (varmint calibers), I have owned several, and I am probably going to buy a very nice 722. And I will repeat, I have never had one go off like some of those who claim it did.
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