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Old August 16, 2012, 03:13 PM   #1
paradoxbox
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Kind of a ridiculous question, but humor me.. Collateral/Tom Cruise

I am sure all of us have seen Collateral which is a great and entertaining movie. Of course Tom Cruise was a fantastic shot in the movie.

I have a few questions about some of the things we see in the movie though.

#1) During the briefcase robbery scene, Vincent slaps the gun arm of the would-be robber down then draws and fires on both assailants.

I have seen someone on youtube doing a very similar drill where the shooter starts with their hand touching the target, the start buzzer goes off and the shooter backs up (sometimes slapping the target first) and then takes their shots. Is there a name for this drill?
You can see an example of this drill at about 0:41 in this youtube clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbC5mEc6ipE

#2) Repeatedly, Vincent fires from the hip after a quick draw with a single handed grip, with his other hand above the gun kind of like you'd see in an old western movie, slapping the hammer back on his revolver. In Collateral Vincent is using an HK45 so no need for hammer slapping - is there a reason he does this and can someone explain it to me?

You can see what I'm talking about at about 1:05 and again at about 1:51 in the following youtube clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8-P8sJNHk0

Thanks in advance for any info

Last edited by paradoxbox; August 16, 2012 at 03:20 PM.
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Old August 16, 2012, 03:23 PM   #2
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1- i don't know what the drill is called, but that is a real close-quarters application, deflect the weapon, draw and fire.

2- He is not putting his hand there to slap the hammer back, he is deflecting brass from his face. Holding the weapon in close like they are doing is standard CQB technique. If you extend your hand, the other guy could supposedly do the same to you, and you would be right back where you started.
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Old August 16, 2012, 05:51 PM   #3
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The Mozambique Drill. A fellow named Mike Rousseau did it, then described it to Jeff Cooper... who later named it and developed it into a training exercise.

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Old August 16, 2012, 07:03 PM   #4
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Regarding #2, Ive seen a number of strange positions for the off hand when firing one handed. Side of the face comes to mind.

I don't know how much it would accomplish in defensive/combat shooting. I guess its better than letting it swing caveman style on your side. Personally I would be backpedaling and trying to get my second hand on the gun.

There's some portion of it that has to do with High-stress weapon retention. Its beyond me. I guess if someone reached for your pistol you could judo them off with your left hand. Like I said before, I'd rather just backpedal and fire, but I'm NO professional.
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Old August 16, 2012, 07:14 PM   #5
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“Of course Tom Cruise was a fantastic shot in the movie.”

Really? Such a ‘fantastic shot’ that instead of dropping the 2 perps when they are further out, he takes the unbelievable risk of allowing his would-be murderers to get within arms reach. And then, at the end of the movie, the ‘fantastic shot’ is gunned down by a nobody.

Learn nothing from Collateral except how not to defend yourself.

See Indiana Jones vs the swordsman, better tactics.
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Old August 16, 2012, 07:17 PM   #6
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I don't think the laws of Physics (or Physiology) were considered in that movie.
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Old August 16, 2012, 09:45 PM   #7
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[1] In the briefcase scene Tom Cruise isn't firing from the hip. He's firing from what's called the retention position -- gun in close indexed just at or a little below the pectoral muscle.

[2] I don't know if the particular drill has a name, but I've done it in a class with Louis Awerbuck. We also did it in the Intermediate Handgun class (350) at Gunsite. It's useful when engaging a close in threat.

[3] As to the non-dominant hand, when firing from the retention position it's important to (1) have the non-dominant hand positioned in a way that assures it can't get in front of the muzzle; and (2) have the non-dominant hand in a position from which it can easily assume its part of a two hand grip if it become possible for you to create distance and extend the gun.

[4] For his role in the movie, Tom Cruise trained extensively with a former member of the British SAS. The techniques he uses in the movie are "real world" as taught in some major schools. This clip shows some of his training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaman
...Such a ‘fantastic shot’ that instead of dropping the 2 perps when they are further out, he takes the unbelievable risk of allowing his would-be murderers to get within arms reach...
No. The threat had the drop on the Tom Cruise character. Assuming one has the skill and confidence, it's a reasonable tactic to close distance so the the threat's gun can be deflected. And from that close in, firing from the retention position is the indicated technique.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Creeper
The Mozambique Drill. ...
No. The Mozambique involve two shots to the center of mass, a quick assessment and, upon realizing the two didn't have the desired effect, firing a shot to the head. That's what Mike Rousseau did. Here, Jeff Cooper describes it (Jeff Cooper's Commentaries, Vol. 1, No. 1, pg 1, June, 1993):
Quote:
As time passes we discover that there are a good many readers who have not been to school and who are puzzled by our reference to "The Mozambique Drill."

I added The Mozambique Drill to the modern doctrine after hearing of an experience of a student of mine up in Mozambique when that country was abandoned. My friend was involved in the fighting that took place around the airport of Laurenco Marquez. At one point, Mike turned a corner was confronted by a terrorist carrying an AK47. The man was advancing toward him at a walk at a range of perhaps 10 paces. Mike, who was a good shot, came up with his P35 and planted two satisfactory hits, one on each side of the wishbone. He expected his adversary to drop, but nothing happened, and the man continued to close the range. At this point, our boy quite sensibly opted to go for the head and tried to do so, but he was a little bit upset by this time and mashed slightly on the trigger, catching the terrorist precisely between the collar bones and severing his spinal cord. This stopped the fight.

Upon analysis, it seemed to me that the pistolero should be accustomed to the idea of placing two shots amidships as fast as he can and then being prepared to change his point of aim if this achieves no results. Two shots amidships can be placed very quickly and very reliably and they will nearly always stop the fight providing a major−caliber pistol is used and the subject is not wearing body armor. However, simply chanting "two in the body, one in the head" oversimplifies matters, since it takes considerably longer to be absolutely sure of a head shot than it does to be quite sure of two shots in the thorax. The problem for the shooter is to change his pace, going just as fast as he can with his first pair, then, pausing to observe results or lack thereof, he must slow down and shoot precisely....
It appears that some of the folks here might well benefit from some serious training.
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Last edited by Frank Ettin; August 17, 2012 at 09:58 AM. Reason: correct typo
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Old August 17, 2012, 08:06 AM   #8
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Thanks, Mr. Ettin.
Well said.
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Old August 17, 2012, 08:39 AM   #9
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"Guns, Bullets, and Gunfights" by Jim Cirillo, a former NYPD officer & firearms instructor has some excellent tips & instruction on 'weapons retention shooting positions'. Jim was one of NYPD's most decorated officers & was involved in more 'real life' gunfights than anyone in the department. This book is a 'must read' for anyone who carrys for personal protection. There are also some eye opening stories realting to 'stopping power' of bullets that may cause you to reconsider your personal carry piece. To be armed is one thing, to be trained is another thing altogether. from Paladin Press - ISBN 0-87364-877-3
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Old August 17, 2012, 08:39 AM   #10
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“No. The threat had the drop on the Tom Cruise character. Assuming one has the skill and confidence, it's a reasonable tactic to close distance so the the threat's gun can be deflected. “ [Frank Ettin]

Thank you for the analysis. Please allow the privilege of a different view.

If ambushed at dance-partner proximity, the Vincent/SAS technique is certainly reasonable.

However, if 2 perps approach me with the one perp holding his gun sideways I figure the odds of drawing a nite-sight HK (coupled with ‘fantastic’ shooting skills), should adequately stop the threat. Why would I allow a perp to close the distance to 2 yards where his gun might even … accidentally go off and blow a hole thru my heart? To invite an armed perp close-in welcomes a world of hurt. Way too risky.

I respect the quoted opinion and admire such physical skill, but do not consider it a reasonable tactic for me.

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Old August 17, 2012, 08:43 AM   #11
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Allowing the gunman to close on Cruise might have been for the audience to see he was armed.
It was, after all, a movie.
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Old August 17, 2012, 08:45 AM   #12
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The techniques used by Tom-as mentioned already-are very effective and real. You have to admit the realism when he takes out those two thugs, first by disarming one, and then drilling 3 holes in each of them.

Like it was stated by someone else, some of you guys could use some real CQB training, and maybe you can get up to Tom's level of shooting.
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Old August 17, 2012, 09:05 AM   #13
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I may have remembered this incorrectly, but I thought Vincent closed on the two hoods, not vice versa.

And that kind of technique has been around for a long, long time.

Bill Hickock used to deliberately close on adversaries. His philosophy was a better shot would prevail at distance, but at bad breath range the steadier nerve would win.

Another thing to note about Vincent vs the two hoods - by moving in the manner he did, he deflects BG1's gun toward BG2; he also partially interposes BG1 between himself and BG2.

Had Vincent remained at distance, both BG1 and BG2 could have had unobstructed shots.

Agree with Frank Ettin and sheepdog - some of the folks complaining here don't seem to have had any H2H or CQB training.
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Old August 17, 2012, 09:42 AM   #14
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Quote:
some of the folks complaining here don't seem to have had any H2H or CQB training.
The technique he uses in the movie is actually a Krav Maga disarm.
You will notice that he is not lightning-quick, but the key to his engagement is the disarm. He grabs the BG1's handgun, deflects the muzzle away from him, and towards the general vicinity of BG1, and possibly BG2 (hard to tell from the angle).
He is quick when he does this, but not so quick that it's Holywood fake.
All this is done at a 1.5 rhythm, where the deflection takes place first, then while maintaining the disarm, drawing your sidearm and engaging.

It's really a cool technique, and I especially like how he shoots the first dude from the guard position, then finishes the other guy with a full extension.

I am taking a class on this stuff next month. Can't wait.
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Old August 17, 2012, 09:50 AM   #15
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Quote:
I am taking a class on this stuff next month. Can't wait.
Are you referring to the disarm or the shooting?
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Old August 17, 2012, 09:54 AM   #16
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Just for info, with higher level IDPA shooters, we found locally that 30% could beat Tom's time. It's not an uncommon match set up.
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Old August 17, 2012, 10:09 AM   #17
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Quote:
Are you referring to the disarm or the shooting?
It's both combined. I am already an experienced martial-artist, and a well rounded shooter, but this class focuses on combining the two.

Glenn,

Do the IDPA guys do the disarm and beat his time, or just draw and beat Tom's time?
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Old August 17, 2012, 10:30 AM   #18
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First off I didn't see the subject movie. I normally ignore gun fight TV and movie shows, they are more for entertainment then reality.

Except for CSI shows, drives my wife nuts cause I can't keep my mouth shut.

Anyway:

Quote:
I have seen someone on you tube doing a very similar drill where the shooter starts with their hand touching the target, the start buzzer goes off and the shooter backs up (sometimes slapping the target first) and then takes their shots. Is there a name for this drill?
I did some similar drills when I was a LE Instructor. Only we started out with both hands on the target, at the buzzard. With one hand (non shooting hand) you push the target back, with the shooting hand you draw and shoot, not really extending the pistol/revolver, but rolling it out of the holster.

Slamming your non-firing hand into the face of the bandit would distract him enough to get your shot off.

I'm an old man, now retired but I still practice with my pocket revolver. As old and slow as I am, I still can, drawing from my pocket, get the shot off in less then 1/2 second.

Now I'm not saying deliberately get close so you can shoot, but in LE its not unreasonable to expect a confrontation and nose to nose distance.
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Old August 17, 2012, 11:21 AM   #19
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There's a paper IDPA target that you have to deal with in a retention position - such as an elbow in the first target's 'face' - then you deal with the others.

When we saw the movie, I told my wife that I could do that and she was skeptical and said I wasn't Tom Cruise. Sigh - on her part.

We've done it with a brief case being held to start the fun also.

One thing I noticed with stages where you hold stuff, is that sometimes folks keep holding on the thingee and run around with it. I ditch it.

In a NTI stage, you are bringing pizza to a friend, open the door and find the place covered with blood and you need to find your buddy. Yes, you should just retreat and wait for the cops but you can't in the stage. Interesting, some guys ran through still holding the pizza. I was praised for throwing it away before clearing (which you shouldn't do but it was the stage and the guy owed me for the pizza - )
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Old August 17, 2012, 11:28 AM   #20
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Sounds like fun!

I know a lot of the match shooters here get very nervous about exiting their comfort level with combining disarms and retention shooting.

I was glad to convince a lot of them to come to this KM weapons defense course, which teaches all of the techniques, just without the shooting part (draw and use your weapon as a cold weapon, disarm and draw, etc).
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Old August 17, 2012, 12:11 PM   #21
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+1 To Frank Ettin's comment. Great video clip as well.

Firing from retention and using tactical sequence. Those two examples are being theatrically displayed in the briefcase scene.
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Old August 17, 2012, 12:51 PM   #22
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Quote:
+1 To Frank Ettin's comment. Great video clip as well.

Firing from retention and using tactical sequence. Those two examples are being theatrically displayed in the briefcase scene.
Tactical sequence? How so? I'm only familiar with the IDPA definition of the term which amounts to "Everybody gets firsts before anybody gets seconds" which doesn't appear to be what occurs in the scene.
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Old August 17, 2012, 01:54 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATW525
...I'm only familiar with the IDPA definition of the term which amounts to "Everybody gets firsts before anybody gets seconds" which doesn't appear to be what occurs in the scene.
And isn't always the best idea.

In the situation shown in the film, Threat 1 was close and with his gun deployed. Threat 2 was more distant and hadn't yet presented his gun; in fact he was struggling to get it out of "deep concealment." Threat 1, therefore, was considerably more serious and needed to be thoroughly neutralized immediately. Threat 2 was less exigent.

Of course it was all staged to work out that way. But it does illustrate an appropriate tactical sequence under those particular circumstances.
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Old August 17, 2012, 02:27 PM   #24
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Well said Frank.
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Old August 18, 2012, 05:38 PM   #25
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Quote:
I'm only familiar with the IDPA definition of the term which amounts to "Everybody gets firsts before anybody gets seconds" which doesn't appear to be what occurs in the scene.
When I read that I thought you were referring to this:

Quote:
In a NTI stage, you are bringing pizza to a friend, open the door and find the place covered with blood and you need to find your buddy. Yes, you should just retreat and wait for the cops but you can't in the stage. Interesting, some guys ran through still holding the pizza. I was praised for throwing it away before clearing (which you shouldn't do but it was the stage and the guy owed me for the pizza - )
If there's free pizza and every body gets some, I may have to start shooting IDPA again.
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