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Old August 16, 2012, 09:14 AM   #1
cosmicdingo
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Yanks buy AKs

My brother, a Major in the Army, says AK's are basically a thrown rock for accuracy, but they sure seem popular, since according to NBCN American gun owners buy as many as the Russ military.Looking for link.
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Old August 16, 2012, 11:04 AM   #2
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I don't know how many AKM style rifles U.S. citizens have bought but there sure are a lot of us!
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Old August 16, 2012, 12:52 PM   #3
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48670593...utmk=111857924

I guess the key is that the Chinese cannout get their AK's into our market very easily, which keeps them from outpricing the Russian AK makers.
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Old August 16, 2012, 01:01 PM   #4
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Anyone who says an AK is like a thorwn rock for accuracy is talking directly out of their ass. Maybe the armed foreces feed them that BS to help enstil a sense of weapons domance? I don't know but its a lie nevertheless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TsN7Jerx74
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Old August 16, 2012, 01:38 PM   #5
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Anyone who says an AK is like a thorwn rock for accuracy is talking directly out of their ass. Maybe the armed foreces feed them that BS to help enstil a sense of weapons domance? I don't know but its a lie nevertheless.
Is that the reason you see so many winning rifle matches????

Get real

I put on DCM GSM and High Power Rifle Cinics all the time. You see people show up every now and then with AKs and SKS's but you never see anyone show up twice with one.

There is a reason.

Don't say they arn't authorized in these matches, they are in the Modern Military Catagory in the CMP matches but they have to compete with ARs and they CAN'T.

Anybody can "dummy up" a U tub vedio, hard to dispute results of CMP or NRA Matches.
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Old August 16, 2012, 03:13 PM   #6
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AK is commonly considered not to be too accurate, it does have a lot to do with the primary user of this weapon, most (remember what most means, not what about this group or that faction) of the users do not get quality range time, lots are undisciplined and sometimes high on some sort of drug. I don't think anyone would chose an AK over an AR for target shooting. The video is definitely stretching the range of the round, did anyone else notice a report coming before the dirt flew?

Bottom line for me at least, I'd take my AR yard for yard against any AK, now after 500 yards (think armys point target max eff is 550) i'd have to default to my .308 bolt, who can see that far open sight....
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Old August 16, 2012, 04:13 PM   #7
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Up until fairly recently, AKs were cheap, dirt cheap, and ammo was also dirt cheap. IMO it has little to do with the superiority of the weapon, it appeals to low-budget buyers. And it goes bang. Put cheap ammo and cheap rifle together and you will sell lots of them.
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I guess the key is that the Chinese cannout get their AK's into our market very easily,
Norinco, the primary manufacturer of AKs in China, is banned from importing them to the US after their troubles keeping full-auto rifles separate from the civilian version semi-autos.
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Old August 16, 2012, 04:15 PM   #8
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I'd say the long range aspect has a lot to do with the rainbow trajectory of 7.62x39mm. At 300 yards I have a 26 inch drop in my loads.I can hit steel reliably, (not every round, to be honest), at that range with iron sights/red dot, but going out to 500 yards would stretch it a wee bit far for me. I'll try it if i find a steel target at that distance, but I'm not going to hold out a lot of hope.
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Old August 16, 2012, 04:16 PM   #9
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The AK will shoot minute of individual which is enough.
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Old August 16, 2012, 04:28 PM   #10
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for its intended function as a combat weapon it its plenty accurate.
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Old August 16, 2012, 04:29 PM   #11
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Sorry guys, I respect the history and reliability of the AK but I grew up watching the Vietnam War on the nightly news as a very young child.

Also the Soviet nuclear threat was a big issue then. Bomb shelters, hiding under your desk at school, etc.

It made one hell of an impression on me. Negatively.

To me, the AK 47 was the rifle that the VC/NVA used to kill thousands of our young American soldiers in Viet Nam.

I'll stick with my American Colt AR's thank you very much.
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Old August 16, 2012, 04:33 PM   #12
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As was mentioned before, US shooters will buy anything that's cheap and goes bang. AK's are just one gun in a long line of cheap military surplus weapons that were dumped on the U.S. market. They sold for cheaper than new commercially produced weapons, and the ammo that was imported along with them was often cheaper than new commercial ammo as well. Being able to shoot more for less is hardly ever a bad thing.
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Old August 16, 2012, 04:51 PM   #13
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Agree with armoredman about the drop

Used a 25 yard zero, the AK needs limited holdover out to 200-225 yards, but past that there's not much it has going for it.





Sorry for the large pics, photobucket and iPad
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Old August 16, 2012, 08:20 PM   #14
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I wasn't talking about trajectory. I was talking about accuracy. Leaving trajectory aside, as far as grouping, The AK/SKS's suck.

The CMP GSM matches (excluding the vintage sniper match) are shot at 200 yards, or if the range is limited, at 100 yards.

They cannot compete with any other vintage military rifle I've seen, what's worse they have to compete in the Modern Military Category (See the CMP Rules) There they compete with ARs, M1A, FALs, etc.

I've seen it too many times, those guns don't cut it. If you want a cheap Russian shooter, get a Mosin.

If you want to just make noise then by all means get an AK.

I don't even have to talk about Service Rifle where you shoot 200, 300, 600 and 1000 yards. That's where the AR's shine. That being Service Rifle not Match Rifle.
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Old August 16, 2012, 08:59 PM   #15
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I always thought the design of the AK was the reason for its inaccuracy. If you see an AK shoot in slow-motion, the entire frame bends and flexes. This in-turn affects the accuracy of each shot fired due to the inconsistency. Is this wrong?
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Old August 16, 2012, 09:36 PM   #16
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Anyone who says an AK is like a thorwn rock for accuracy is talking directly out of their ass.
HI, I'm Earth, have we met? by the way. I've shot a number of AKs both on active duty and as part of my personal collection. they are all inaccurate. the round is a major hindrance. heavy bullet+light charge=lots of wind drift+bullet drop. pair that with a weapon that was for the most part cranked out in the millions by very poor countries lacking high tech manufacturing equipment and you end up with a gun that severely lacks accuracy.

I can make better shots with my 10/22 at 200 yards than I can at 50 yards with any AK I have ever tried. I got fed up with the shortcomings of the AK and sold mine, the only rifle I have ever cast out of my collection.

I suppose that I must be speaking out of my ass but I figured I'd give my personal experiences anyway.
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Old August 16, 2012, 09:47 PM   #17
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The CMP GSM matches (excluding the vintage sniper match) are shot at 200 yards, or if the range is limited, at 100 yards.
I guess it depends on the game you are playing. Take a Ferrari off roading and you will probably not be as impressed with its performance as you would an ol Willys. Take the Willys onto a track somewhere and you would tend to think the Ferrari is the better choice.

You make a valid point of course, but one does not have to enjoy these tournaments to enjoy shooting. And sometimes a man will experience a bond with a rifle he has used in unsociable social situations which cannot be readily explained. It does not yield to demands for justification.

And I have shot against Kraigwy, and happen to know that you could put a Red Ryder in his hands and he could outshoot many at 200 yards with match prepped ARs. Given his excellent skills, Kraigwy can wring the most amazing performance out of any firearms. --For the rest of us mortals, and some a little less experienced than many on this board, there are certain benefits to the Kalashnikov.
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Old August 16, 2012, 09:50 PM   #18
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Define accuracy

I think perhaps there's a differing opinion on accuracy.

Are we saying MOA, point target (aka minute of bad guy) or area target.


I don't think the AK is accurate but don't believe I'll miss a man sized target at 100yards either.
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Old August 16, 2012, 10:33 PM   #19
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So you would liken minute of bad guy out to 500 yards to "a thrown rock"

Also, not all ak's are chambered in 7.62x39
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Old August 16, 2012, 11:14 PM   #20
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When considering its design parameters, the AK is probably one of the best rifles ever. It is more than accurate enough for the purpose intended. Given my preference, I'd much prefer an AR, but don't sell the AK short. It is a very capable rifle.
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Old August 17, 2012, 12:15 AM   #21
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Remember, the AK was designed as a sub machine gun, not a long range rifle - the Dragunov equipped Squad Marksman was supposed to handle that type of range, IIRC. The AK was originally intended for the same thing as the STG44, a "storm rifle" meant for short range urban combat, and the designers who worked on it were heavily influenced by the closing days of that war. If I remember correctly the round was invented first, and employed in the end days of WWII with the Red Army, with the revolutionary and already outdated SKS-45.
I have to ask the experts, because, for one, I've never competed in any rifle match whatsoever, so I have less than no clue - are there ANY rifles that come out to play and win with the AR-15s?
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Old August 17, 2012, 05:02 AM   #22
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I'm just a beginning rifle shooter, but my AK is better than a "minute of bad guy". In my first serious session with the rifle a couple of weeks ago I put 10 of 11 into 2-3/4" at 100 yards using the cheapest steel cased ammo, iron sights, ,my so-so eyes and not much experience.

I know that most ARs are way better than this (not to mention most are equipped with optics), but I would hardly say that this rifle "sucks" w.r.t. accuracy. I don't know, maybe I just got lucky, but that's one reason I kept shooting to see how repeatable it was, and I hope to get better.

Could it be that most people assume they are poor and don't really try for accuracy?

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Old August 17, 2012, 05:38 AM   #23
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When I had one, I think that AK was a couple hundred dollars and the ammunition was seven cents a round. I understand the affection for a rifle that doesn't cost a grand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spacecoast
I'm just a beginning rifle shooter,..
I'm not great with a rifle, but I was beginning to think I had owned the only AK that could hit a soda can at 100m. I could not have done that with a rock.

I grant that lots of guys with ARs can keep it all in the black on your target at that distance, and many will keep all those shots within a quarter.
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Old August 17, 2012, 09:01 AM   #24
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are there ANY rifles that come out to play and win with the AR-15s?
Are you asking if any one "wins" using the AR? If thats the question, the answer is yes.

If you're asking if any rifle can compete with the AR, then the answer is NO.

Understand I'm an M14/M1A gun. I've shot the M14/M1A in competition since I started in 1977, been shooting them since I went to basic in 1966. I used it in sniper school and taught sniper schools with the M14 (M21). I got my distinguished badge using the M14/M1A.

I was reluctant to switch but I saw the light. In major High Power matches the M1A is as rare as hen's teeth. In fact it was given its own match at Perry.

I'm not talking Palma Match rifles but service rifles. The ARs beat the records set by the M14s, even in 1000 yard service rifles.

One only needs to walk down the line at any major rifle match and see what's being used.

Minute of Bad Guy???? What is that. Bad guy standing in the open at 50 yards or peeking over the sights of a machine gun at 300 yards? A group of bad guys standing in a road junction at 50 yards or using woman and kids as human shields at 200 yards.

There is, in my opinion, no such thing as "accurate enough", even with my AR's or even my bolt guns, I'm constantly working on trying to make them shoot better, trying to develop more accurate ammo.

One other thing people don't take into account when discussing the AK v. AR.

Put each rifle to your shoulder. Without removing it, with your shooting hand, push the button and drop the magazine and insert another with your other hand. Put the safety on and off using one hand without taking your shooting hand off the pistol grip. Change magazines with out taking your eyes off the sights.

Communist countries didn't flood the third world with AKs because they were the best rifles made, they did it because they are the cheapest.
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Old August 17, 2012, 10:22 AM   #25
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Gosh, this subject sure generates a lot of passion... I am in no way arguing that the average AK is even near as well built, well designed or accurate as the average AR, but would point out that many shooters never develop their skills to the point where they really test the gun's capability. I also believe that there are MOA-capable AKs in existence, whether by a fluke or made that way on purpose.

Quote:
Minute of Bad Guy???? What is that.
My interpretation of "minute of bad guy" or "minute of individual" is that you could consistently make a center of mass hit on a human at 100 yards, the target area being about the size of the 8" 8-ring on a 50-yard NRA pistol target. Even rifles that "suck" should be able to do that in the hands of a competent shooter.

I believe my AK and likely many/most others are capable of much better than that even using iron sights and cheap ammo, as I think has been demonstrated. The pop can hits at 100 mentioned by zukiphile are I think a good baseline as well. If and when I can generate a significantly better target than the one I already posted I will post it.
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