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Old August 8, 2014, 03:41 PM   #1
mendozer
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accuracy problems with '06 - contd

I tried responding after everyone's tips but it was closed.

Recap: problems with precision with 06 with different bullet types and with same bullet weight

I was able to keep them closer with the 180s. I'm about to go this weekend as well, i tried tightening the stock screws (although they didn't feel loose). I don't have a torque wrench so I made them somewhat tight (with thumb and first two fingers) to see if that's around 15 lb/in.

I really would like to be able to shoot 150 gr for deer though. I don't want to use 180s and destroy half of my future pepperoni sticks! Is there any way to tell if the barrel has been compromised with regards to different bullet weights? 30-06 should be able to handle a range from 150-200 gr right?

Could have been the crappy PPU ammo?
Just curious because I've been reading up on accurizing rifles and saw cryo treatment to "cure" any past barrel warpage or whatever. Seeing as this rifle was used, it could have been botched or not treated properly.

EDIT: side note, should I bed before hunting season? I'm thinking that the accuracy loss could be due to scope rings, screws, stock movement, etc. Or is this all just minimal hype? I'm sure bedding and all that helps a little for say competitive shooters, but shouldn't Savages be sub MOA out of box?

Last edited by mendozer; August 8, 2014 at 03:55 PM.
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Old August 8, 2014, 05:33 PM   #2
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"I don't have a torque wrench so I made them somewhat tight (with thumb and first two fingers) to see if that's around 15 lb/in."

You're a bit light. According to the specs for my Fat Wrench, you should have them torqued to 40 inch pounds if the stock does not have pillar bedding. That 15 inch pounds is in my opinion not tight enough.I had one rifle where the gunsmith didn't tighten it properly and the recoil destroyed the stock. If you shot the rifle with the screws that lightly tightened, you may have already damaged the stock. I'd check for cracks and then tighten properly.
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Old August 8, 2014, 05:57 PM   #3
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Your barrel should be fine as it is.

Yes, you can over tighten synthetic stocks with the core too soft in the receiver area. Most made today have hard core there as hard as good wood. The original synthetic stock cores were too soft and pillar bedding was first used in them to prevent cores from being crushed by too much torque on the screws.

Deleted stuff; you found the problem.
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Old August 8, 2014, 05:58 PM   #4
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With a synthetic stock can I overtighten? I know it's very important with wood stocks.

Savage numbers found on their customer service page:
Accustock models - 40 inch pounds (including wedge screw)

Centerfire w/ synthetic stock - 30-35 inch pounds

Centerfire w/ wood stock - 30-35 inch pounds

Centerfire w/ laminate stock - 30-35 inch pounds

Rimfire w/ any stock - 15 inch pounds

Just opened it up so i know it's not Accustock. Also discovered this...The rear screw (behind trigger guard) was split in half. The top half is in the action. So this came into my possession like this.
So 1) now I know why the accuracy has been hit and miss (if it's even that big of an issue) and 2) CRAP!

EDIT: and the stock looks fine, no cracks anywhere
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Old August 8, 2014, 06:18 PM   #5
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Quote:
I really would like to be able to shoot 150 gr for deer though. I don't want to use 180s and destroy half of my future pepperoni sticks!
Hunting weight 30-06 bullets are going through a deer.

The lighter weight/higher speed will expand quicker & cause more damage.

What experiences have you had that makes you say 180gr messes up more meat?
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Old August 8, 2014, 06:20 PM   #6
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no experience, just assuming smaller bullet = less damage bc less mushrooming...?
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Old August 8, 2014, 06:59 PM   #7
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The broken screw is important.

You also might draw the screws up gradually...don't tighten the rear screw tight first,while the front screw is loose,for example.

While a barrel might show a preference for a given bullet weight,other factors may enter in and confuse the issue.

Throat length,condition,etc,ogive design,seating depth,all play a role in how the bullet aligns as it enters the rifling.

Generally,150 through 180 gr bullets (and some lighter/heavier)should work fine in a typical 30-06 barrel.

On meat destruction,150 vs 180 gr.Both bullets start at .308.If they had the same velocity,same jacket construction,and they both expanded the same and passed through,they would each destroy about the same amount of meat.

Typically,the 150 will have more velocity.Velocity tends to destroy meat.

Maybe the velocity will cause more expansion.More expansion would make a larger wound channel.

The 180 would tend to penetrate more.

Its hair splitting,both will take deer fine.I'd expect a more violent wound channel from the 150,but its a shade of grey if the bullet does not fail.

On a deer size animal,my 30-338 flinging a 200 gr Nosler accubond at 2900 fps will kill just fine,but you'll be able to eat fairly close to the wound channel.Its a fairly hard bullet.

I might loose more meat to my 257 AI with a 115 Ballistic tip at 3050,as that bullet opens up .Its not terrible,but maybe football size.

I shoulder-hit :-( a pronghorn once with a 7 mm Rem Mag,a 160 gr Sierra that was a rather zippy load.It was horrific.Really bad.Inspired my .257.

Point:Your idea about meat destruction is a little off.
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Old August 8, 2014, 07:07 PM   #8
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good to know. Lots of ballistics stuff out there to be learned for sure.

I'm taking the gun to a gunsmith today to let them take it out. Good thing I decided to do this before going to the range again this weekend. Now I won't know if I broke the screw or if it came like that.
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Old August 9, 2014, 09:11 AM   #9
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mendozer
The rear screw on a 110 (all Savage long actions) does not support the action in any way, it only holds the trigger guard in place. There are couple of things that are important on a Savage. First make sure the barrel is floated and second make sure the tang is floated. If either area is contacting the stock your groups will be erratic, but considering your rifle likes 180 grain bullets contact with the stock may not be your problem. Still I would check it just to be sure.

I scan your original thread and did not see where you're checked the scope base. I had a simular problem with a Savage 110 and it turned out the the front base. had worked loose. Maybe something to check.
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Old August 9, 2014, 12:52 PM   #10
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Savage Freak

I personally beleive that for the money, there isnt any better commercially built rifle made than a Savage, there generally "bullet proof". I have two now but I've owned four different caliber Savages, with synthetic stocks. I float the barrel and pillar bed before they go to range...then scope is mounted meticously making sure srews properly torqued and locktited.
Then I pick a bullet I want to test, and measure BTO and start from there.

I've killed scores of deer cleanly with minimum meat loss using 150 grain bullets, and now I want to use 165 grain Accubonds.

Check stock screw torque and make sure you gettem right.
Post picks of groups shot at 100 yds and what type ammo shot, as this could help to highlight problems.
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Old August 9, 2014, 07:04 PM   #11
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Mendozer, cryo cures warpage ?? You're reading nonsense. As a metallurgist I know a few things about cryo including , sadly , the large amount of BS out there ! Stress relief treatments involve heating , 700-1200 F.

Meat damage - high velocity and fragile construction are the two things that cause meat damage ! Those who take things like foxes to save the hide use a reduced velocity FMJ bullet .
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Old August 9, 2014, 07:22 PM   #12
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Yup the gunsmith reassured me that the rear screw was basically useless. It just looked like a snapped screw, flat and the other side had a flat side (which was the safety pin).

The stock is pillar bedded already as he showed me. He also mentioned that it wouldn't be worth my money to glass bed it as it's a flexible stock anyways, so he advised against it. Instead he examined the trigger and said "but I can work on this for you for sure" to decrease travel and shorten something, replace springs, etc. While it was at 3 lbs, it did have quite the travel which probably affected accuracy as well. So I left it with him to do a trigger job. He was very educational which I appreciate because he could have just taken my money and bedded it as well. He's even gonna check the scope reticle with some protractor and torque all screws free.

He was saying that with the twist rate (1:10 for a 111) I should be shooting heavier bullets anyways not even bothering with a 150 gr. Makes sense when he explained it so whatever. Also gave me shooting pointers on not using my thumb on the tang since that can cause rotational error similar to a handgun. So in two weeks I'll take it to the range with these new tips and new trigger.

He let me squeeze his trigger on his savage hog hunter (3 oz pretravel with 15 oz pull) VERY smooth.
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Old August 9, 2014, 08:34 PM   #13
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Looking forward to your next report.
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Old August 9, 2014, 08:40 PM   #14
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Back in the old days I chose 180 grain bullets because they expand less/slower and didn't damage as much meat.
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Old August 9, 2014, 11:30 PM   #15
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mendozer:

I have no issue with the 180, I think that is the middle spot for 30-06.

Keep in mind though, the original loading was 220 gr (military).

They have gone as low as 150, WWII in actual combat they used the 174 gr machine gun bullet as it gave gthe best overall accuracy and it was easier to deal with in combat with one ammo delivery (the 30 caliber machine guns were 30-06)

The 1-10 twist is good for a very wide range.

Reality is that people have gotten very good accuary out of as low as 120 gr bullets and up over 200.

while there is nothing wrong with the 180, if you wind up with 150s for any reason, the gun should should those fine.

If not, its the specific gun and ammo combo, not the rifling limiting it.
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Old August 10, 2014, 12:42 AM   #16
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RC20, I was thinking it must be ****ty ammo because I knew the 06 had a wide range. That comforts me knowing it should be fine. Also my Lyman 49th manual has loads as low as 110gr for jacketed and 115gr cast.

One more reason to get into reloading. Make 10 rounds and if it doesn't like it, no biggie
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Old August 10, 2014, 12:48 AM   #17
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side note: are there good sources online that simulate ballistics with certain loads? Like Chuck Hawks has great info on muzzle energy comparisons, etc but I want to know what load would shoot flat and fast vs have a big punch. graphs would be great too
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Old August 10, 2014, 08:58 AM   #18
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That "gunsmith" that told you it was useless to bed a synthetic is useless, I have three in the safe and they shoot a hell of a lot better than ones that arent.

1-10" twist is a standard twist for mostly all factory 30-06 barrels..its twist is capable of shootin all .308 bullets....
Dont believe some of what you hear from Dat dude mendozer.
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Old August 10, 2014, 09:03 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mendozer
One more reason to get into reloading. Make 10 rounds and if it doesn't like it, no biggie
It'll usually take you on average 25-30 rounds to decide it the bullet and powder combination is worth persuing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mendozer
side note: are there good sources online that simulate ballistics with certain loads? Like Chuck Hawks has great info on muzzle energy comparisons, etc but I want to know what load would shoot flat and fast vs have a big punch. graphs would be great too
Forget about fast and flat, as well as the big punch. There is no hard and fast rule as to how much energy is needed to kill anything, 500-1000 ft-lbs works well for me as I hunt with muzzle loader to rifle. Nothing shoots flat either so after a certain range you'll need to compensate for range. However, most modren cartridges are flat enough that you can have a MPBR of 300 yards pretty easily.
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Old August 10, 2014, 05:26 PM   #20
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well then in that case I'll try bedding it myself so if it doesn't help it at least costs less. I just really feel the sporadic patterns are mostly due to ammo/gun combo and my noob faults. Trigger work will definitely help part of that as will my continued practice. The odd thing is when dry firing I can keep my eye on bullseye and I don't move at all.

I'll keep the round suggestion as well.

Guess I figured when I got a long range rifle it would be point shoot simple but there are so many things that could affect accuracy making it hard to determine which is really at fault
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Old August 10, 2014, 06:07 PM   #21
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Well, if you're trying to shoot long range and you're not buying quality ammunition or hand loading quality ammunition then you're throwing money away. Buying cheap ammunition and hoping it performs well at long range isn't the way to do anything. You'll want to buy as much as you can afford of the same lot of ammunition that your rifle likes once you discover what that is.

Bedding a rifle improperly can cause more problems than it fixes. So watch several videos, use more than you think you'll need of release agent. Go slow and be patient follow the instructions and your bedding will turn out okay.
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