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Old December 17, 2014, 12:14 PM   #1
DocUSMCRetired
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Lever Actions.

How would you guys feel about some ideas here.

Lever Action 260 or 6.5 Grendel. These are some great calibers offering great performance. This would also be a great weapon for youth shooters. Great teaching tool, and not as abusive on an 8 year old as a 30-30.

Lever Action 338MX. This could be a real beast, improving upon the Ballistics of a 30-30 for a bit more reach out to range.

Just wanting to see how you guys feel about having these options.
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Old December 17, 2014, 12:30 PM   #2
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They would be 2 shooters unless you could find flat point 6.5mm bullets.
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Old December 17, 2014, 12:34 PM   #3
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Why not just download that 30/30 with say 110 grn JHP's or similar and let the child learn to shoot a full sized weapon with the appropriate power level reloads?

I have shown several folks the fun of the 30/30 with the right loads. Some are really soft shooters so you much be sure of your powder charges.
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Old December 17, 2014, 12:35 PM   #4
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That is something that is tested right now. Using a weapon on a safe range, currently they have been unsuccessful in getting a weapon to detonate or misfire with ballistic tip rounds in a magazine creating an unsafe condition. So far it has been unsuccessful.
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Old December 17, 2014, 02:58 PM   #5
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Can you elaborate on what is happening? Why would the round not fire?

I have shot a bunch of Sierra 125 grn HP/FN. I have also shot 110 grn HP and 110 grn FMJ's that were meant for my M1 Carbine. You can toss those really slow but you have to be careful that you get them out of the barrel.

You have me really curious about the 30/30 now.
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Old December 17, 2014, 02:59 PM   #6
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I have a 30-30 Winchester 94 load for new shooters. Try 7 grains of green dot powder capped with a 130-150 cast lead projectile. It still makes noise but it doesn't kick at all.
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Old December 17, 2014, 03:11 PM   #7
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I love the 99 savage fit.

http://www.smithandwessonforums.com/...eferrerid=4731


The 99 comes in many calibers. Maybe not for an 8 year old.

A nice youth bolt action with hand loads may be better.
1 round is plenty too.
7mm 08 could be a nice deer later on.
Also don't rule out the old muzzle loader. A 45 smoke pole can be a great teaching tool. Not expensive either.
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Old December 17, 2014, 03:31 PM   #8
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I corrected it. I meant, an unsafe detonation has not been able to be created.
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Old December 17, 2014, 03:42 PM   #9
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I searched both websites, Savage and Browning. I don't see Savage offering MDL 99 anymore.

The closest I think you going to get to what you're imagining is a Browning BLR. I have never owned a BLR but have always admired and wanted one. It is offered in 243WIN, and 7mm-08. It is mag fed not tube fed, you can load any bullet profile. They even make a brake down model. This is IMO an ingenious design. All come with fixed sights so you shoot right away w/o optics.

A conventional lever action, Marlin, Henry, or Winchester in a pistol chamber, 357/38SPL, or 44SL/44RM might be more realistic. Recoil in a rifle would be negligible and mastering that would be an asset when they want to shoot real high powered rifle. Just a thought. Good luck.
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Old December 17, 2014, 03:42 PM   #10
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You're better off finding a bolt action gun that actually FITS the 8 yr old than trying to come up with a new cartridge in a lever gun that STILL won't fit

There is very little demand for lever actions in larger calibers
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Old December 17, 2014, 03:45 PM   #11
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I have to disagree on fit. With todays modern lever actions, you can fit them quite nicely. They make stocks on the same level you will find in both AR platforms, and in bolt platforms. So fit is not an issue.
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Old December 17, 2014, 05:28 PM   #12
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I have a 99 Savage in .260 that I did myself. It is not that uncommon a thing to do. There are a few .338 Federals out there too. I used a .308 and changed the barrels to do the .260 REM. The rotor works perfectly, but if you have the round indicator window in the receiver, it may not line up to the correct count. Believe me, when it comes to change overs in older guns, it has pretty much been done. Browning levers? Where are they all? I can only remember seeing one in the woods once, and I have hunted public land in my state and other states for years.
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Old December 17, 2014, 06:31 PM   #13
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Quote:
I have to disagree on fit. With todays modern lever actions, you can fit them quite nicely. They make stocks on the same level you will find in both AR platforms, and in bolt platforms. So fit is not an issue.
I second that. The average winchester 94 has what 13 inches length of pull and replacement stock pieces can be had for $20 if you really need to cut it down smaller.
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Old December 17, 2014, 10:52 PM   #14
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Oh, you mean this .338??
http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firear...ss/default.asp

Nice graphic shows what they can do


As far as hooking up a kid, I'd suggest the Marlin 1894, in .45 Long Colt or .44Mag.
Still can hunt with it, light recoil, very handle-able

I'd suggest a pre-2005 version...until the Alabama move is complete
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Old December 18, 2014, 10:08 AM   #15
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Quote:
Lever Action 260 or 6.5 Grendel. These are some great calibers offering great performance.
If you are talking about a tube fed rifle, then you'd need round or flat nosed bullets or something like Hornady's gummy nose bullets. Unless you are willing to limit yourself to a "Two Shooter". If you are talking about a vertical feed magazine, then no problem.

What I'd like to see is a resurgence of the 7mm-30 Waters. Bring that back and have gummy nose bullets for it and I'd be tickled to death. I'd be Ok with a smaller caliber version of the same, like a 6mm or a 6.5mm, for that matter.

Quote:
...and not as abusive on an 8 year old as a 30-30.
A .30-30 does not have to be abusive. Just learn to reload. Cast bullets with light charges of pistol powder work just fine for learning, and recoil is like a .22.

You can move up from there.

Quote:
Lever Action 338MX. This could be a real beast, improving upon the Ballistics of a 30-30 for a bit more reach out to range.
If it were me, I'd forgo the .338MX and find me a (obviously used) Win 88 or Savage 99 in .308 Win. Better bullet selection, better brass availibility, better ammo availability. Why try to emulate a .308 when one can have a real .308?
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Old December 18, 2014, 01:40 PM   #16
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Can't use pointed bullets in a tube magazine? Look into rotary tube magazines. Other than that you're limited to plastic tipped bullets like what LeveRevolution.
You have options though if you don't need a tube magazine, the 1895 Winchester and the Browning BLR come to mind.

If all you need is a lever an 8 year old can shoot, then a pistol caliber rifle or reduced power rifle rounds will work great.

I was 10 and hunting with a .30-30 with regular loads. We had a problem with it though, defective ammo. So much powder the bullet wasn't seated in the case all of the way. It had some recoil lets just say. It didn't destroy the gun luckily.
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Old December 18, 2014, 02:16 PM   #17
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gb_in_ga
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A .30-30 does not have to be abusive. Just learn to reload. Cast bullets with light charges of pistol powder work just fine for learning, and recoil is like a .22.
Exactly what I said.
Quote:
I have a 30-30 Winchester 94 load for new shooters. Try 7 grains of green dot powder capped with a 130-150 cast lead projectile. It still makes noise but it doesn't kick at all.
The only drawback is my load shoots 3 inches lower at 25 yards but I doubt an 8 year old is going to be shooting long distance. And if you have the brass it only costs 14 cents per reload. One pound of powder is enough for 1000 rounds. Later on ween the kid off or start loading down standard loads.

It's a very fun round to shoot with. Just ask my wife. I made up a bag of 100 shells just a few months ago. We went to the range because I wanted to make sure my deer rifle was on. And in the time it took me to shoot 11 relaxed slowly squeezed loads she had gone through 90 rounds. And she wasn't even loading them in the tube.
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Old December 18, 2014, 05:33 PM   #18
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I have a spare barrel for one of my 99 Takedowns in 7-30 Waters. I made it because I could not get .303 brass anywhere. The older 99's had a shorter magazine and I could only use Flat Point 140 grain bullets with it or 120 grain bullets. Now nobody makes 140 grain F/P bullets anymore. I can heat up reloads in the 99 and have used it for deer, but I think it is a dead round for rifles.
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Old December 18, 2014, 07:30 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocUSMCRetired
How would you guys feel about some ideas here.

Lever Action 260 or 6.5 Grendel. These are some great calibers offering great performance. This would also be a great weapon for youth shooters. Great teaching tool, and not as abusive on an 8 year old as a 30-30.

Lever Action 338MX. This could be a real beast, improving upon the Ballistics of a 30-30 for a bit more reach out to range.

Just wanting to see how you guys feel about having these options.
As several have mentioned, the first thing that came to my mind when reading this thread was the 7x30 Waters. Ken Waters' intent was to create a cartridge that extended the range of the typical .30-30 lever gun with a re-barrel. Even though the cartridge eventually became a factory round, it is still ham-strung by the "flat-nose-tubular-magazine" syndrome. I'm surprised Hornady hasn't made some rubber nose ammo in that caliber (or maybe they do & I haven't heard about it yet).

I have a T/C Carbine in 7x30 & I can attest to it's deer performance & improved trajectory with pointed bullets. But what is needed is some type of floating, buffered, spring loaded or something gizmo tubular magazine replacement. A modern pointed .30-30 bullet of proper 125gr bullet design to expand at 800fps+would be a great renaissance for the lever guns! BTW: I've read a few test where peeps tried to get pointed bullets to detonate daisy chained cartridges in a tubular magazine. IIRC they were all a failure. I also never heard of anyone blowing up their prize 94 with a pointed bullet handload. Please forgive me if I'm talking against traditional wisdom here & you blew-up your .30-30 with a bullet tipped like a firing pin.

Or what about creating some .30-30 ammo with small rifle primers & bullet noses that have a hollow-point the size of the primer??

JIMHO...

...bug

Last edited by BumbleBug; December 18, 2014 at 07:44 PM.
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Old December 18, 2014, 11:00 PM   #20
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Quote:
Try 7 grains of green dot powder capped with a 130-150 cast lead projectile.
I'm using a 168 gr cast lead plain base flat nose sized to .311 with either 5 gr of Bullseye or 7 gr of Unique. Decent results in my microgroove Marlin, good plinkers.

I read where it is important that you use a flake powder. I tried using HP-38 (a ball powder) and didn't get very good results at all. Yeah, it went bang but just wouldn't group.

Quote:
The only drawback is my load shoots 3 inches lower at 25 yards
Yeah, it does shoot quite a bit low. Not really a problem for me. I use a scope, and it is a trivial exercise to just work up a load card for my primary loads.
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Old December 19, 2014, 08:55 AM   #21
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Quote:
Lever Action 260 or 6.5 Grendel. These are some great calibers offering great performance. This would also be a great weapon for youth shooters. Great teaching tool, and not as abusive on an 8 year old as a 30-30.
Pointy rounds in leveractions can cause firing in the mag tube during recoil unless the tips are sufficiently buffered. Hornady has done this with their Leverevolution rounds, but do not make these in either 260 or 6.5 Grendel.
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Old December 19, 2014, 09:16 AM   #22
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DNS, although the calibers mentioned (260 or 6.5 Grendel) aren't on the list, Browning does make lever action rifles that use a box magazine for pointy rounds.
http://www.browning.com/products/cat...id=034&tid=006
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Old December 19, 2014, 09:38 AM   #23
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To keep the post on topic. I would like to go back over the safety thing. Testing is being done, and all options are being looked at. Intentional detonation is being attempted. As well, Federal Ammunition makes 30-30 Ballistic Lead Tipped Partition rounds at 170gr. These are not soft, or flex tips. They are lead ballistic tips. Factory ammunition for 30-30. So moving away from the worries of safety, we are talking strictly performance.

I understand how to reload, and I know how to develop a soft load. I am specifically looking at the ballistic capabilities of different rounds chambered in a lever action.
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Old December 19, 2014, 11:07 AM   #24
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I don't think either caliber would sell. Both calibers are not all that popular with the shooting public. {and probably will never be.} Savage introduced the shooting public to their idea of a hot little cartridge in their model 99. 250-3000th and it wasn't all that big a seller. Neither was the 243 marketed in the same model. Marlin ventured once into producing a couple of their lever models in smaller calibers that were discontinued because they too showed so little in interest and sales. (25-36--256 Mag) Thus the 6.5 Grendal and any 26 cal designed to fit a lever application would probably not gain enough momentum in the Board Room. Unlike our elected Officials. Firearm manufactures do lean from their mistakes.
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Old December 19, 2014, 11:24 AM   #25
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While not a .260 or 6.5, you can definitely have that kind of performance in an existing lever action platform.

Browning BLRs are available in both .243 and 7mm-08.
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