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Old August 16, 2012, 08:23 PM   #26
orionengnr
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When I tried to take it out, the man pointed a gun at me and said he'd shoot me!"

These situations can be subjective, and if I pull a gun on someone, it's assault in most localities.
How is it that the first person to "pull a gun" is innnocent, while the person who just had a gun pulled on him is automatically assumed guilty?

I understand that Justice is blind, but if she is deaf, dumb, blind and incredibly stupid as well...God help us all....

Glad I don't live where you do.
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Old August 16, 2012, 08:38 PM   #27
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Wow scary stuff, man walking up in your shop pulling a gun out. Think he could be robbing the place. I woulda done the same and drew also.

I nearly draw before on animals chasing me on my bike.
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Old August 16, 2012, 09:20 PM   #28
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I'm with the OP. If I pull a loaded gun from my pocket without discussing it first, I expect to have a gun pointed at me and shot if I cover him with the muzzle holding the gun in my hand.

I mean really, we are that stupid. How would the OP know when he is being robbed? Or, is that a great robbing gig.

Go into pawn shop, pull your loaded gun. If you get drawn on, just ask if the pawn guy will buy for twice retail value.

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Old August 16, 2012, 09:25 PM   #29
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Well, if you're stupid enough to walk up to someone and pull a gun out of your pocket then I'd say yes, you should look around to see how many people are pointing a gun at you.
Here it would be every employee present.
Not stupid at all, but thanks for playing.
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Old August 16, 2012, 10:01 PM   #30
Frank Ettin
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Originally Posted by orionengnr
Quote:
..if I pull a gun on someone, it's assault in most localities...
How is it that the first person to "pull a gun" is innnocent, while the person who just had a gun pulled on him is automatically assumed guilty?

I understand that Justice is blind, but if she is deaf, dumb, blind and incredibly stupid as well...God help us all....

Glad I don't live where you do.
Man, do you have that wrong.

If you pull a gun on someone, it's assault everywhere. Now maybe you can establish that you were justified in pulling the gun, i. e., a reasonable person in your shoes would have believed he was about to be killed; and that can be a defense to the criminal charge of assault. But unless/until you can establish at least a prima facie case of justification, you're on the hook.

Folks who carry a gun or who have a gun for self defense really need to understand how the law works here.
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Old August 16, 2012, 10:03 PM   #31
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Glad I don't live where you do.
Oh, but you already do. We live in a society that has a penchant for litigation.

In that situation, the best course of action would be a stern warning to watch the muzzle, set the gun down on the counter, and let me inspect/clear the weapon.

If the weapon hasn't been pointed at me and the person hasn't made any other threatening overtures, then I might have trouble explaining to police or a jury why I drew on someone. After all, people have brain farts, and society seems to accept that.

Am I tempted to draw on people who do stuff like that? Sure. Would it do any good? Probably not.
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Old August 16, 2012, 10:13 PM   #32
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Man, do you have that wrong.

If you pull a gun on someone, it's assault everywhere. Now maybe you can establish that you were justified in pulling the gun, i. e., a reasonable person in your shoes would have believed he was about to be killed; and that can be a defense to the criminal charge of assault. But unless/until you can establish at least a prima facie case of justification, you're on the hook.

ah, merely pointing a gun at someone doesnt appear to meet the primary element of assault in my neck of the woods. (according to the criminal code)
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Old August 16, 2012, 10:14 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by FireForged

ah, merely pointing a gun at someone doesnt meet the primary element of assault in my neck of the woods. (according to the criminal code)
Citation, please?

I understand the difficulty of proving a negative, so please understand I am looking for case law (appeal courts) that supports your contention.

If you would share your location,we could look up the law in your neck of the woods.

Everywhere I know of in this country, laws state that the criteria for "assault" include (but is not limited to); putting someone in fear of bodily harm. Now, I will grant you that intent is an element that throws my disagreement with your assertion into some doubt, but pointing a deadly weapon is pretty severe.

I know a guy who was charged with assault when he only offered to shoot someone's window out with an air pistol. It went to trial, but I don't recall the verdict. But that was in Anchorage, not the South.

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Old August 16, 2012, 10:34 PM   #34
Frank Ettin
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Originally Posted by FireForged
ah, merely pointing a gun at someone doesnt appear to meet the primary element of assault in my neck of the woods. (according to the criminal code)
Yes, by all means, provide a citation.

The usual definition of assault, based on the Common Law is:
Quote:
an intentional act by one person that creates an apprehension in another of an imminent harmful or offensive contact.
In the laws of some States this crime might be given another name. For example, in Alabama it's called "menacing" (Section 13A-6-23):
Quote:
Menacing.

(a) A person commits the crime of menacing if, by physical action, he intentionally places or attempts to place another person in fear of imminent serious physical injury.

(b) Menacing is a Class B misdemeanor.
But it's really a matter of "a rose by any other name will still get you locked up." The Common Law term for what is called menacing in Alabama is "assault."
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Old August 17, 2012, 01:11 AM   #35
wayneinFL
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In that situation, the best course of action would be a stern warning to watch the muzzle, set the gun down on the counter, and let me inspect/clear the weapon.
Unless the guy is actually going to shoot you. Then he's probably not going to listen to the warning.

I see your point of view. I've had shop owners pull guns on me twice, and I didn't like it.

To me the whole thing seems like a hell of a judgment call. If the guy gave kind of a bad vibe for some other reason, I can understand why a shop owner would risk being charged with assault, risk having to justify it later.
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Old August 17, 2012, 01:21 AM   #36
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You're kidding, right?

Telling a person that reaching in their pocket and pulling out a handgun should get them shot is "actionable" where you live?
Glad I don't live there.
Not a matter of where one lives, but where one works. When people come into a shop on a regular basis and suddenly display the gun they want to sell, then one deals with it in his own way, I suppose. Producing a gun you want to sell in the same manner as one who's committing a robbery can be problematic.
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Old August 17, 2012, 06:03 AM   #37
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Not a matter of where one lives, but where one works. When people come into a shop on a regular basis and suddenly display the gun they want to sell, then one deals with it in his own way, I suppose. Producing a gun you want to sell in the same manner as one who's committing a robbery can be problematic.
Yep, and it is a daily occurrence. If you watch the videos of many robberies, robbers come in with their guns already in hand, openly displayed, just like a LOT of customers pawning their guns. Do you draw on them?

Not everyone brings in their pistols in a rug or presentation box. They come in just about every way. The same goes for rifles.
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Old August 17, 2012, 08:55 AM   #38
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Yep, and it is a daily occurrence. If you watch the videos of many robberies, robbers come in with their guns already in hand, openly displayed, just like a LOT of customers pawning their guns. Do you draw on them?

Not everyone brings in their pistols in a rug or presentation box. They come in just about every way. The same goes for rifles.
I'm going to disagree a little with you here.

The vast majority, but not all, customers bring their firearms into the shop encased and unloaded.

The exceptions being regular known customers who may or may not retrieve their firearm from concealment, usually after asking and the very occasional new customer who believes we are mind readers and somehow know what he intends while drawing a firearm from concealment.

As I posted, this has happened more times than I can remember in my 25 year career and every time I've hesitated I ask myself "What was I waiting on, for him to shoot me?"

Keep in mind that we are all openly armed here and the opposite edge of that sword is your attacker may just shoot you to reduce his exposure to your gunfire.

Rock and a hard place.
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Old August 17, 2012, 02:56 PM   #39
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I refuse to do business with gun stores that have No Loaded Guns signs posted. Isn't it rather odd that Gander Mountain with an average inventory of >5K handguns and long guns in each store does not have a "No Guns" or "No Loaded Guns" sign posted. Never heard of any problem(s) at my local GM when a customer, while talking to a sales person, presents a weapon from his pocket and I have visited the store at least twice weekly since it opened and have seen it done quite often. When does paranoia overcome common sense?
Just my two cents worth.
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Old August 17, 2012, 03:26 PM   #40
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@ Doublenaughtspy. He knew it was loaded when he saw the weapon. Rule 1 all weapons are treated as loaded. Now I think he did an ok thing but the telling the guy he might of shot him is a eh maybe not so good a choice of words. But one things for sure, Had he been an leo officer and the scruffy man just pulled a 38 revolver out hed be lucky not to be dead.
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Old August 17, 2012, 04:34 PM   #41
DennisCA
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Glad you didn't have to shoot anyone - bad for business!

I had a (drunk) guy came to my house when I lived in NC.
He had mistaken my house for his and was trying to kick in the
door when I wouldn't let him. I opened the door a stuck a .357
New Ruger Backhawk in his face......he sobered up real quick.

Didn't realized he was plastered out of his mind, (and yes he drove
home) he knocked on my house a few days later and apologized.

I accepted his apology but told him needed to repaint my front
door, since he kicked the hell out of it...he did and did a great job!

I live in CA now but hear from him every now and then.
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Old August 17, 2012, 05:12 PM   #42
wayneinFL
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I refuse to do business with gun stores that have No Loaded Guns signs posted. Isn't it rather odd that Gander Mountain with an average inventory of >5K handguns and long guns in each store does not have a "No Guns" or "No Loaded Guns" sign posted. Never heard of any problem(s) at my local GM when a customer, while talking to a sales person, presents a weapon from his pocket and I have visited the store at least twice weekly since it opened and have seen it done quite often. When does paranoia overcome common sense?
Just my two cents worth.
I've never heard of a gun counter at a Gander Mountain getting robbed, there are an awful lot of witnesses between the back of the store and the front door. Pawn shops get robbed all the time.

I have been to mom and pop shops with "No loaded guns" or "all guns must be cased" signs. Whenever I've asked they said I can carry and that the sign's just there for the idiots who just whip out loaded guns with no explanation.
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Old August 17, 2012, 09:48 PM   #43
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I worked in a big box store in the gun department and most folks brought in handguns or longarms cased, although we always cleared the weapons as we bought used guns and had gunsmiths working there too.

However I had scores of times someone would ask me about a firearm or a holster or ammo or accessories and whip out their loaded concealed carry firearm with their firearm already out there was no way I could have beat them to the draw altho they were in close enough to me if they showed intent I could have hit or grappled with them. Working in a small store would have been a lot more dicey and even tho I saw some incredibly stupid and thoughtless things done by gun owners most of the gun owners were safety minded and acted accordingly.

What scared me more than guns was our knife department with combat knives with long blades and even swords, I have handed such hardware to some incredibly rough looking people while standing close enough to be cut to ribbons in short order.
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Old August 17, 2012, 11:46 PM   #44
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1st quote microgunner // 2nd quote chuckusaret

1st quote microgunner:

Quote:
The vast majority, but not all, customers bring their firearms into the shop encased and unloaded.

2nd quote chucksaret:

Quote:
Never heard of any problem(s) at my local GM when a customer, while talking to a sales person, presents a weapon from his pocket and I have visited the store at least twice weekly since it opened and have seen it done quite often. When does paranoia overcome common sense?
Just my two cents worth.

I don't see any issues with presenting a firearm, but you need to verbally communicate it Before and/or OK it first. I have no problems doing this after reading this thread still.
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Old August 18, 2012, 07:34 AM   #45
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I'd have sworn that the signs at GM, Cabela's, etc are on the lines of "Any guns brought in for service or trade must be unloaded and cased."

IE, no bans on concealed carry, but if you want to be able to show the gun, it needs to be unloaded and visually safe.

That makes perfect sense to me.

I have seen people pull out their loaded guns to try holsters, for instance. Generally bad form in two ways, IMO.

They should ask the sales guy before drawing a loaded weapon, period. And, they should probably ask before testing holsters (and possibly marking the holsters or packaging.)

Rude, clueless and armed is no way to go through life.
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Old August 18, 2012, 11:06 AM   #46
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The LGS I frequent has several signs leading to the building, and one in large print on the front door. Though I am sure there are some people that have thier head, and mind somewhere in a place in the back below the belt line.

Though I like the sign.

The Safety Of Our Staff, and Customers Comes First

We support the Constitution of the United States of America. We believe in your right to lawful concealed carry. If you are carrying concealed please make sure it stays that way. If for some reason you need assistance in finding accessories, holsters, ect., and need to remove the weapon. Notify the staff and we will assist you after the said weapon has been cleared, in the clearing area.

All guns brought in for repair, trade, consignment, or appraisal shall be unloaded, and checked by the counter staff upon your bringing them into the store.
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Old August 18, 2012, 11:15 AM   #47
Brian Pfleuger
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The problem with that sign is that the same people who will draw a gun unannounced are the same people who will see...

"The safety of our blah, blah..." quit reading.

The message of the sign is great and it's COMPLETELY lost on the only people who need it.

I once stood less than 3 feet behind 2 standard sized red/white CLOSED signs positioned at eye level on the counter at the bank I worked at inside of a Walmart. My head was literally bracketed by the signs. A woman walked up to the counter, looked me right in the eyes and said "Are you open?"
I died a little, that day, and I've known ever since that signs are worthless.
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Old August 18, 2012, 03:07 PM   #48
m&p45acp10+1
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Pizza man I am with you on that. As I said in the post some people have their heads, and minds buried in the nether region. Then again some people are just oblivious to everything in the world. Common sense stopped being common a long, long, long time ago.
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Old August 18, 2012, 04:55 PM   #49
wayneinFL
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I once stood less than 3 feet behind 2 standard sized red/white CLOSED signs positioned at eye level on the counter at the bank I worked at inside of a Walmart. My head was literally bracketed by the signs. A woman walked up to the counter, looked me right in the eyes and said "Are you open?"
I died a little, that day, and I've known ever since that signs are worthless.
I've asked before. Half the time the numb nut behind the counter forgot to change the sign. happened yesterday at a checkout lane. Two lanes, one lane with the light on and no one home, the other manned but no light.

Come to think of it, one of the times I had a gun pulled on me was walking into a gun shop. The clerk pulled his gun to a low ready behind cover, and yelled, "What are you doing in here?!"

"Uhh... Just browsing..."
"We're not open yet!"
"The light's are on, and the door's open, and-"
"That doesn't mean we're open!"
"-and the great big 'OPEN' sign on the front door is a little misleading."
"It says 'CLOSED'"
"Yeah, on this side- the other side says 'OPEN'"
"Oh... We'll be open in about 15 minutes. You can come back then."
"Yeah.... I'll be back..."

And no, I didn't come back.

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Old August 18, 2012, 09:02 PM   #50
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I died a little, that day, and I've known ever since that signs are worthless.
That's a well-known fact. If folks don't read signs like "Emergency Parking Only," "Lane Ends in 10 Feet-Merge Right," or "Do Not Taunt Happy Fun Ball," what makes me think they'll read a sign banning loaded firearms?

Heck, there are some gun owners who deliberately flaunt those signs. They've made me despise the phrase "concealed means concealed."
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