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Old August 12, 2012, 10:09 PM   #1
Method
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Velocity question...

How much difference have people noticed when switching from one velocity shell to another? Here's the background:

- I have become an avid skeet shooter and started reloading for the first time this weekend. I enjoy it (both the shooting and reloading), and based on local prices I'm saving nearly a dime per shell.

- I normally shoot Winchester AA, 8.5 shot, 1 1/8oz, 1145fps. For my reloads, I'm using the same hulls and shot, but I use 1oz, and the only recipes I can find for my combination of powder/hull/equipment are for 1200-1250fps.

- I went to shoot with reloads today for the first time. Perhaps I was a little out of the zone and not completely into my game...but I felt off. Statistically, shooters do just as well with 1oz as they do with 1 1/8oz (hence the popularity of 20ga or 1oz loads for lower costs and recoil). So I wondered if shooting a higher velocity might account for a change in performance. Otherwise it was just me being off today and I need to focus on my mental game (state championships are in two weeks).

I thought about putting this in the reloading forum...but 99.99% of those posts are about "bullets" and not shell reloading. If anybody knows of a recipe for the above settings (and using the bushings for a MEC Sizemaster), I'd be interested.

Cheers,
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Old August 12, 2012, 11:04 PM   #2
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Quote:
How much difference have people noticed when switching from one velocity shell to another?
IMHO, none.
I shoot 1150 and 1200-fps loads. In NSSA 12-ga events, I typically shoot 1 1/8-oz 2 3/4-Dr Eq of 9s. For all doubles events, I shoot 1-oz (1200-fps) for the first target and 1 1/8-oz (1150-fps) for the second target. It may be all in my head (a lot of Skeet is what's in your head), but I think it lets me get on the second target a little quicker. The only time I go larger than 9s in Skeet is if the wind is being bothersome. In 20-ga, 28-ga and .410-bore I shoot 1200-fps loads.
Quote:
…the only recipes I can find for my combination of powder/hull/equipment are for 1200-1250fps.
Perhaps you need a faster powder. There are plenty of 1145-fps recipes with 1-oz in AA hulls.
Quote:
Otherwise it was just me being off today and I need to focus on my mental game (state championships are in two weeks).
Two weeks before a major tournament is no time to be messing around with changing your usual loads. The first target you miss will have you wondering if it's an ammo problem and you'll loose focus and confidence.
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Old August 13, 2012, 10:28 AM   #3
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Zippy my friend - if you can tell the difference in a published 50 fps and your lead, you need to run for Superman. When you chrono factory loads, you can have that much variation from shell to shell

OP - 1oz at 1250 will give you about the same recoil as 1-1/8 at 1145 - give or take. I rarely shoot skeet any more, as I prefer 5-stand and sporting clays, but my 3/4 and 7/8 oz reloads in 12 and 20 gauge work just fine for my intentions - I'm not out to win any skeet tournaments (and I won't shooting 22-23 on average), but for practicing swing, insertion point/break point, etc. the light loads work, the money saved on shot is real, the lessened recoil is definitely noticeable
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Old August 13, 2012, 11:28 AM   #4
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I'm with Zippy on this ....messing with your loads prior to a state championship ( just mentally ) is not a great idea ! You have to know you can shoot 100 straight ...and not think your loads are going to cause any misses...and if you miss / that stuff will creep into your brain...

However, I do think shooting 1 oz loads...in the long run will help you - mentally and with recoil - since recoil is cumulative / less recoil can help with reducing fatigue. Getting a 1oz load at 1145 fps is pretty easy ..using Hodgdon Clays / check their online load data site.

Changing powders - will give you lots of load options / personally in a 12ga, I use Hodgdon Clays - and you'll find a lot of options for 1 oz loads from 1125 fps to 1200 fps ...and if you want to go faster, switching to Hodgdon Intl or others will get that done too.
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Old August 13, 2012, 12:22 PM   #5
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Zippy my friend - if you can tell the difference in a published 50 fps and your lead...
Oneounce, my friend, I didn't say I could tell the difference between 1150 and 1200-fps loads. What I said was, I use 1-oz loads for the first shot in doubles and follow up with a 1 1/8-oz load. The reduced recoil of the 1-oz load lets me get on the second shot quicker.

When I first tried two loads in doubles, in the late 80s, I was shooting a typical 2 3/4-dram Skeet load. In those days, IIRC, the 1-oz target loads weren't available in 1145-fps, they were the faster international loads. I've never seen a need to try to reduce my 1-oz loads to a 1145-fps recipe.

As I previously mentioned, I shoot 1200-fps in the other gauges; however, in 12-ga Skeet, I feel that the slower load's patterns are little more center dense and I get better breaks. With doubles, my first shot is well before the center stake and the 1200-fps 1-oz loads work fine. I find I get more of an advantage using two loads in trap doubles than in Skeet. With trap the second shot has more time to run where in skeet both targets are typically taken at the same spot. If the second Skeet target is irregular and tries to get away, and I have to case it down, I'm more confident with the heavier load.

I've got a basement full of Skeet and trap reloaded. I'm concerned with the shot weight and size, not velocity. I don't shoot much long yardage trap, so I don't have any boomer loads. As you noted, there's enough variation from load to load -- especially with some of my ragged hulls.
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Old August 13, 2012, 01:16 PM   #6
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How much velocity loss due to a gun being a gas gun do you think you can see in the norm of things, versus the same ammo firing from a fixed breech?
I was getting over 100fps less velocity ( shot over a chrono) through the A400 then a friend was getting with his K-80 - which in tuen was 100 fps slower than the published velocity.
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Old August 13, 2012, 03:56 PM   #7
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Quote:
I was getting over 100fps less velocity ( shot over a chrono) through the A400 then a friend was getting with his K-80 - which in tuen was 100 fps slower than the published velocity.
Did the K-80 have a different bore than the ammo makers test gun, or barrel length, or... ?

About 25-years ago, Glenn Gregory (founder of G-squared) was tired of hearing all sorts of unsubstantiated velocity claims made by the club's re-loaders. Some of the boomer boys had vivid imaginations. Glenn brought a chrono out to the club and did some some extensive tests. It turned out that many shooters weren't even close to what they thought their velocities were.

IMHO, some shooters get overly concerned about velocity. While Skeet shooting, I've witnessed many times when a blooper reload will sound like a mouse phart, have little recoil and still break the target.
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Old August 13, 2012, 04:07 PM   #8
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Good question regarding bore size - I am not sure - next trip out I am bringing both the gas gun and the O/U (Browning) and see what happens. Powder charges were weighed, and I expect a slight variance from the powder maker (unlike the bushing person where I just start from scratch), but 20% was a bit much - even for me.

I never really considered that a gas gun might bleed off some FPS to work the action as the ports and muzzle are so close and everything is moving so fast, you would think it would be minimal.........
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Old August 13, 2012, 05:31 PM   #9
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You guys are giving me a headache.../ how much FPS is bled off to cycle the action ..???...geez....( who cares, is the answer that comes to my feeble old mind).../ what about the affect of humidity, air temperature, temp of the barrel, temp of the shell, .......

if you're going to really do this ...I think you need to do your tests of about 5 shells per gun / per day ....and 2 days a month ...over the next 12 months...( and see how much variation you get / and what the mean is ...etc...) all that junk I forgot from those foolish statistics courses...40 yrs ago...

you guys are killing me....
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Old August 13, 2012, 06:55 PM   #10
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My regular shooting partner wants to buy a chrono. I don't wan't near the thing. As is I have to many reasons to miss without thinking about why one shell is 3% faster than the next one out of the same box. He paid to send 5 shells for testing some place.

I think I got him worried that his loads, what Zippy calls "boomers", may not be ATA legal. Like we are shooting registered ATA. They averaged 1310 FPS and 11,060 PSI. These are 1 ounce loads and per him ATA allows 1325 FPS.

Last edited by TheKlawMan; August 13, 2012 at 07:32 PM.
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Old August 13, 2012, 07:51 PM   #11
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I never saw the point of loading birdshot faster than the speed of sound. The air drag on the pellets at supersonic and transsonic speeds is so high that the shot is subsonic after only about 5 yards anyway.

Size 7 1/2 pellets
Muzzle 1330
20 yd 930
40 yd 715
60 yd 580

Muzzle 1135
20 yd 830
40 yd 650
60 yd 540

From a book in my reference library.

So much extra noise and kick, so little extra velocity at the target. It's like batting a balloon, hit it gently and it goes half way across the room, swat it as hard as you can and it still doesn't make it all the way across the room.
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Old August 13, 2012, 11:01 PM   #12
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Thanks for all the info. Given that I've only got one more major shooting event this season, I think I'll just ante up for one last case of shells so I can shoot with the consistency I've had this season.

I got a small reloading issue fixed in the other forums, so now I'm cranking out shells that look brand new (but at a savings of a dime compared to new ones). I'll spend the winter months reloading all the hulls I've shot this summer (probably about 2k total) and then have a huge stash to practice with and get accustomed to next year.
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Old August 14, 2012, 12:47 AM   #13
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100 to125 fps difference through my crono usally is a pretty good number for a standard 1245 trap round. (1187 or my 1100 versus my break open trap)
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Old August 15, 2012, 09:09 AM   #14
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Quote:
so now I'm cranking out shells that look brand new
Please, resist the urge to load all you hulls (it's something that happens to most new reloaders) until you've had a chance to evaluate your reloads. Load a enough shells to get you through several trips to the range, if you're still not shooting up to your standard, then you may want to change something. You don't want several cases of loads that don't work for you.
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Old August 15, 2012, 03:38 PM   #15
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"Please, resist the urge to load all you hulls (it's something that happens to most new reloaders) until you've had a chance to evaluate your reloads. Load a enough shells to get you through several trips to the range, if you're still not shooting up to your standard, then you may want to change something. You don't want several cases of loads that don't work for you. "

3,457 boxes of Skeet loads and now you tell me.
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Old August 15, 2012, 04:34 PM   #16
zippy13
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Olddrum, ol' friend, I suspect you've been reloading long enough to know what works and what doesn't. Isn't your P-W the original prototype?
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Old August 15, 2012, 05:51 PM   #17
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3,457 boxes of Skeet loads and now you tell me.
Now we know what drove the shot cost up!
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Old August 15, 2012, 05:57 PM   #18
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TKM, not to worry, I think olddrum1 has a lead mine next to his gun ranges.
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Old August 16, 2012, 12:59 AM   #19
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I hate to fess up to this but I still have a couple of bags of tower that I gave ten or twelve bucks for. Isn't that awful. Goes well with the Blue Peters.
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Old August 16, 2012, 01:11 AM   #20
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Z13, My friend, Yes they are almost the same vintage as I am. Unlike me, they are practically indestructable. A set of nylon bushings for one will give you 150,000 reloads give or take four or five. Then they are back to new again.
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