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Old August 11, 2012, 03:22 PM   #1
hlds54
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What the cops in Los Angeles are packing

My father, a DEA agent just returned from a week of work in LA. Doing various things mostly search warrants. Anyway one of my first questions was what kind of guns did he see on the various law enforcement. I knew a good bit of what the LAPD carries, various caliber glock, s&w automatics, Berettas, ranging from 9mm to .45 acp.
From what he saw, I was supprised. One Officer carried a stainless Para Ordance double stack 1911 .45 acp with a bobed hammer. He got in a long discussion with an LAPD officer, he carried a S&W 1911, which he was so-so about. He also said that SIS carry Kimber 1911s but they are having alot of problems, breakages and such. Some SWAT guys still have series 70 Colts and they will not give them up (for good reason). My dad inquired about obtaining a carry permit in LA county, and for the average civilian its near impossible. I always admired LA but I would never live there, that being a big reason. Just thought I'd share this info with you all.
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Old August 11, 2012, 09:37 PM   #2
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My son-in-law lives in San Bernadino county. I told him I would pay for the CCW classes. When I tried to find the procedure to get CCW, it was a morass. I couldn't make sense of it. Finally, I told him to go through the procedure and let me know when he got to CCW class.
He later emailed me to say he had started the procedure and was told to come back in a year for his appointment.
It's a disaster out there.
By comparison, in NC it takes about 3 months to get a permit. Still too long but the climate may be changing. Almost got CCW in restaurants approved this year. Hopefully, it will become law next year.

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Old August 12, 2012, 08:39 AM   #3
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LAPD, SIS, sidearms....

The main sidearms & what LAPD carrys on duty is often brought up in gun magazines & forums.
I'm not a member of "LA's Finest", but from what I know, in 2012, most sworn LAPD officers carry the Glock 17(9x19mm) or the 22(.40S&W) on patrol. The older Beretta 92F & 96 models(FS/D/G) are popular but are slowly phased out.
Many veteran cops converted to the S&W model 4506 & 4546 in .45acp after the big BoA-North Hollywood gunfight in 1997. The union & city mgrs finally started to allow street cops & detectives to carry .45s like SWAT(who used the 1911a1 models since the 1960s).
The elite SIS(Special Investigations Section) who trailed the city's worst criminals used Glock 21 & 4506 models in .45acp until they got the Kimber SIS format pistols. The LA City Council & a few LAPD officials were not very keen on Kimber using this "covert" group of senior detectives as an ad for new pistols.

When William Bratton, the former Commisioner in New York City & Boston MA took over the LAPD, he changed the firearms policy to allow Glocks in 9x19, .40 and .45acp. To my understanding, the .357sig is not allowed but that may change.
Most LA officers & detectives use the Glocks in .40 or .45acp. Crime writer John Connelly has Harry Bosch(a LAPD D-3/detective-3) carry a Glock. Bosch used to have a compact Kimber 1911a1 pistol in the crime novels.

For some reason, SIG Sauers, Rugers & HK sidearms never seemed very popular with the LAPD.
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Old August 12, 2012, 12:29 PM   #4
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Quote:
He later emailed me to say he had started the procedure and was told to come back in a year for his appointment.
It's a disaster out there.
By comparison, in NC it takes about 3 months to get a permit. Still too long but the climate may be changing.
Wow. Here in Pennsylvania, I go to the courthouse and have it in my hand in 20 minutes. Of course, as we all know, we cling to our God and guns here in PA.
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Old August 12, 2012, 12:53 PM   #5
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Many veteran cops converted to the S&W model 4506 & 4546 in .45acp after the big BoA-North Hollywood gunfight in 1997.
A 45 ACP would have no more penetrated the two criminals body armor than the 9mms the police were using at the time...
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Old August 12, 2012, 01:44 PM   #6
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I think its great they have such a selection of firearms to choose from.
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Old August 12, 2012, 02:18 PM   #7
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A 45 ACP would have no more penetrated the two criminals body armor than the 9mms the police were using at the time.

Probably less penetration but they would have had 40 ft/lbs more energy at 50 yards. Closer than that it could have been the difference between a minor nuisance to the bad guy and a major distraction. Plus it might just be me but I am more accurate with a 45 then I am a 9MM and I bet I'm not the only one.

In 1990 the Los Angeles police department purposely switched to hollow point bullets to prevent over penetration of their targets so their bullets, (both 38 spcl and 9MM), were specifically designed not to penetrate. The same over penetration thinking prevented their officers from using the old reliable .357 magnums or the newer .357 Sigs that had just come out in 94.

Don't you love it when desk pilots who have not been in the streets for 20 years and the stuffed shirts on the city council who have never touched a gun let alone fire one seem to know what is the best weapon and ammo for the policeman on the street.
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Old August 12, 2012, 02:54 PM   #8
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Probably less penetration but they would have had 40 ft/lbs more energy at 50 yards. Closer than that it could have been the difference between a minor nuisance to the bad guy and a major distraction.
That all depends on what loading for 9mm they were use and what loading for 45 ACP they were using. There are 124 gr + P 9mm loadings that produce more ft/lbs than standard pressed 230 gr 45.

I don't want to start a caliber war. A handgun would not have ended that fight. You don't bring a handgun to fight assault weapons. That is why at least some police departments now carry carbines in the trunk, for just that situation.
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Old August 12, 2012, 03:18 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Old Grump View Post
Probably less penetration but they would have had 40 ft/lbs more energy at 50 yards. Closer than that it could have been the difference between a minor nuisance to the bad guy and a major distraction. Plus it might just be me but I am more accurate with a 45 then I am a 9MM and I bet I'm not the only one.
I am more accurate with a 45 as well.

Many of the police I work with carry glocks mainly 9mm
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Old August 12, 2012, 05:24 PM   #10
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.45 ACP

I am a .45 fan, I think its a great round and superior to a 9mm. But they're right no matter what pistol they where carrying it wouldnt have made a difference with their armor. The only thing that would and did stop that was a rifle.
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Old August 12, 2012, 10:46 PM   #11
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That all depends on what loading for 9mm they were use and what loading for 45 ACP they were using. There are 124 gr + P 9mm loadings that produce more ft/lbs than standard pressed 230 gr 45.
Keep in mind they purposely chose ammo in 1990 for it's lack of penetration and were still using it in 1997. 6 months after the shootout in North Hollywood The Army gave the LA police dept 600 M16's and now instead of just SWAT the regular cop on the beat was also authorized to carry 45 ACP's. +P ammo, 9MM or 38 spcl), would have shortened the life of the recoil springs in their pistols but would have done little or no harm to revolvers and +p+ would have shortened the life of the gun, neither would have been authorized for use by any police officer except special service officers like the SWAT team.
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Old August 12, 2012, 10:55 PM   #12
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Read several places that the standard issue is now Glock 17.
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Old August 12, 2012, 11:56 PM   #13
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Keep in mind they purposely chose ammo in 1990 for it's lack of penetration and were still using it in 1997. 6 months after the shootout in North Hollywood The Army gave the LA police dept 600 M16's and now instead of just SWAT the regular cop on the beat was also authorized to carry 45 ACP's. +P ammo, 9MM or 38 spcl), would have shortened the life of the recoil springs in their pistols but would have done little or no harm to revolvers and +p+ would have shortened the life of the gun, neither would have been authorized for use by any police officer except special service officers like the SWAT team.
I think there are some typos here cause it's a bit hard to understand, but I get the gist of what you're saying. Their 9mm was underpowered in relation to today's standards and they weren't authorized to use the ammo that is now the standard for many law enforcement offices across the country. That's good to know and I didn't know that before so thank you.

Again I have no desire to get into a caliber war. Pistols weren't the solution, rifles were. That's the end of that story.
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Last edited by TunnelRat; August 13, 2012 at 12:09 AM.
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Old August 13, 2012, 09:46 AM   #14
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The LAPD's issue Remington 147 JHP would have not penetrated the body armor
in N. Hollywood, but the authorization of .45s gave the troops a
boost in moral.

LAPD could be the last big force in this country to make the transition to Glocks.
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Old August 13, 2012, 11:44 AM   #15
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Street Kings..a .45ACP / 1911 commercial. So awesome
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Old August 13, 2012, 12:17 PM   #16
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BoA/1997 shooting incident, LAPD; M-16a1...

To clear up a few points posted here...
To my understanding, the LAPD(under Chief Parkes) obtained a few select fire M-16a1 type 5.56mm rifles for patrol officers to use.
I considered this a joke since the A1 versions were old, nearly worn out and were replaced by the US military with the new(improved) A2 rifle.
I also read & saw a few sources that stated the LAPD bought & issued "low power" .38spl and 9x19mm duty rounds to "reduce lawsuits" or civil actions.
Many working cops in New York City and LA considered the .38spl police rounds worthless.
It shows too how many NYPD officers(more than LAPD or LA Sheriff's Deputies) would pull out a 12ga pump on "hot" calls.
The use of M4s or patrol rifles is far more common today than in the 1990s.
Spree and/or active shooter incidents have pushed many PDs(even risk adverse ones) to arm LE officers with rifles.

CF
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Old August 13, 2012, 03:35 PM   #17
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Not all of the SIS went to the Kimbers. A good number of them still use the Glock 21.

Many LAPD officers recently took advantage of the reinstatement of the S&W 45 "decocker" school, to switch from the Glock 22 to the S&W 4506-1 and 4566. Regards 18DAI
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Old August 13, 2012, 04:27 PM   #18
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Regerdless of my love for the 1911 and 45acp, LA is a perfect excuse to carry a hi cap 9mm.
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Old August 13, 2012, 04:43 PM   #19
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in the end I could care less what they are packing. to my knowledge they still have to comply with the horrendously strict california gun laws so no matter what they pack, the criminals that don't care about legalities have better guns.
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Old August 13, 2012, 10:50 PM   #20
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My son-in-law lives in San Bernadino county. I told him I would pay for the CCW classes. When I tried to find the procedure to get CCW, it was a morass. I couldn't make sense of it. Finally, I told him to go through the procedure and let me know when he got to CCW class.
He later emailed me to say he had started the procedure and was told to come back in a year for his appointment.
It's a disaster out there.
By comparison, in NC it takes about 3 months to get a permit. Still too long but the climate may be changing. Almost got CCW in restaurants approved this year. Hopefully, it will become law next year.


Ouch.

I got the CCL (License as they don't have authority to prant "permission") and it took just under a month. That was in the first WI rush. Today, it's closer to 2 weeks. Waiting a YEAR for an appointment is total b as in B, s as in S
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Old August 14, 2012, 10:52 AM   #21
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Glocks, TNT's Southland...

One of the LAPD characters on the TV series; Southland uses what looks like a 4516 or 4546 .45acp. Im not sure if duty pistols are issued by a LAPD armorer on request or if sidearms are purchased & approved.
I too heard that Glock 21 pistols were common with many SIS detectives.

The Kimber SIS 1911 series seemed more of a PR gimmick than a real push to arm the elite unit with sidearms.
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Old August 14, 2012, 10:58 AM   #22
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One of the LAPD characters on the TV series; Southland uses what looks like a 4516 or 4546 .45acp. Im not sure if duty pistols are issued by a LAPD armorer on request or if sidearms are purchased & approved.
I too heard that Glock 21 pistols were common with many SIS detectives.

The Kimber SIS 1911 series seemed more of a PR gimmick than a real push to arm the elite unit with sidearms.
No he uses a 5906. Or at least there is an episode when he gets a new partner and says it is a 9mm. Given it's definitely a 3rd Gen S&W I say it is likely a 5906.

Edit: This seems to agree.

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Southland_...26_Wesson_5906
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Old August 15, 2012, 11:48 AM   #23
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Imfdb.org; 5906 9mm...

It's IMFDb.org to the rescue!


It's interesting that the actor-character uses a 3rd gen S&W 5906 9x19mm.
Being left-handed & doing LE, you'd think he'd want to use a pistol that can convert the magazine release(from right to left hand shooting).
To my limited knowledge, the older S&W 3rd Gen pistols didn't include mag releases that could be switched.
I'd lean more towards the 92F/M9 type Beretta for a duty weapon unless the PX4 C was on the "approved" list of 9x19mm sidearms.

CF
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Old August 15, 2012, 01:57 PM   #24
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Most left handed USPSA shooters use their left index finger on the mag release with zero issues. I've shot a lefties 1911 set up with a Smith and Alexander left handed mag release, and being a right-handed dominant shooter, I had to use my right index finger. Bottom line- once you wrap your head around it- it's really fast, and you don't have to shift your grip.

Tahunua001: No, they don't. They have a law-enforcement exception for magazine capacity.

Bottom line- I think they have the tools to do the job. NO pistol would have solved the North Hollywood Shootout- that was a patrol rifle's job.
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Old August 16, 2012, 11:29 AM   #25
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I don't know....

Many hard corps gunners & left handed gun owners may push the "use your finger or just change your habits" bit but I still prefer the quick, simple method of using the strong hand(left) thumb to release the empty magazine.
I'm not a SWAT cop or DEVGRU SEAL but to keep my eyes on target & be fast to exchange pistol magazines is my final goal.

I'd add that a 12ga with rifle slugs or a high power(7.62mm or .30/06) would have been required in the LAPD/BoA incident.
US Army sniper/spec ops MSG Randy Shugart(who earned a Medal of Honor after he died) used a M-14 7.62mm custom rifle in Restore Hope.
He reportedly had around 28 EKIAs(enemy killed in action) at the scene in Somolia(1993). Shugart disliked the M4s & used the 7.62 round as much as he could for spec ops missions.
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