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Old August 9, 2012, 11:20 AM   #1
HShack
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.308 1,000 yd. quandry

Am just starting, but have ultimate goal of punching paper at 1k .

I'm using Hornaday Match .308 Palma [uses 155 gr. A-max bullets]. Velocity stated on box is 2,860 fps. This is pretty accurate in my gun. Stays supersonic @ 1k'. according to Ballistic Calculator.

Want to reload using same bullet. Hornaday 7th edition shows MAX load using
RL-15 or IMR4895 @ 2,800 fps. Are these loads rather conservative?

Would like to use Varget, but that MAX load is only 2,700 fps. [not supersonic @ 1k'.].

Any 1k'. load info is welcome. [I know to start low.]
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Old August 9, 2012, 11:25 AM   #2
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Old August 9, 2012, 11:43 AM   #3
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Hodgdon has max loads of 4895 hitting the upper 2800's with a 24" tube using the Sierra 155. Alliant doesn't list an RL15 load with that bullet, but their 150 grain load (warm, according to QuickLOAD) is at over 2900 fps from a 22" barrel (should add about 50 fps for a 24" tube). So the chances are the Hornady data is conservative.

One thing to be aware of is the length of Palma barrels is typically around 30", so they will get more velocity than a 24" tube (the length of a SAAMI standard .308 velocity test barrel). Probably around 120 fps more.
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Old August 9, 2012, 11:43 AM   #4
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You'll probably need at least 28 inches of barrel to get enough muzzle velocity to keep 155's supersonic through 1000 yards from a .308 Win. case with maximum safe peak pressure. Those bullets need to leave at least 2950 fps to remain supersonic when the atmosphere's thick, such as in cool weather.

Lots of folks tried Sierra's 155's in 24 and 26 inch barreled .308's at 1000 yards when it first came out in 1991. It didn't cut the mustard. Sierra's new version has a higher BC than the first one which is virtually the same as Hornady's A-Max. Hornady needs to change their marketing ploy stating "Highest BC Possible" for their .308 155-gr. A-Max; Sierra's got a higher one now.

So, how long's your barrel?

Last edited by Bart B.; August 9, 2012 at 12:45 PM.
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Old August 9, 2012, 01:34 PM   #5
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^^ This.

Unless you're sending it from a Palma length barrel, it isn't going to cut it.
Those Palma bullets are designed to be sent from ridiculously long, slow twist barrels, probably not what you have.

Go with a heavier, higher BC round. 168 or 175 SMK's over Varget...

Talked with a guy at the range this past weekend that's had good success with the 178 Amax, I might give them a go...but he says their consistency isn't as tight as the MK's.

If you've got a long enough barrel, I've read of a handful of shooters that have success with even heavier bullets more suited to the .300WM- like the 210 MK. But you've got to be able to push them fast enough which isn't easily accomplished.

While velocity is important, the higher BC bullets will have less wind drift. And, max load/velocity is irrelevant if the accuracy doesn't come along with it.

The best accuracy load from my son's Savage .308 is 43.5 grains with the 175 MK- far less than max. Push them any faster, and the groups open up. MV of 2583 still has it supersonic at 1000 yards, though.
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Old August 9, 2012, 04:56 PM   #6
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tobnpr says:
Quote:
While velocity is important, the higher BC bullets will have less wind drift. And, max load/velocity is irrelevant if the accuracy doesn't come along with it.
When top USA long range competitors first shot Sierra's 155-gr. Palma bullet out at 3000 fps, they all commented that it bucked the wind to 1000 yards the same as Sierra 190 HPMK's leaving at 2550 from 26 inch barrels. Several ballistic software's shown the 155 drifts at 1000 yards about 1/20th of an inch less per mph of cross wind that the 190 at the muzzle velocities for each stated above.

So, shoot those lower BC bullets out of a longer barrel and enjoy the reduced recoil during barrel time making 'em easier to shoot accurate.
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Old August 9, 2012, 05:05 PM   #7
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Here something on the Palma rifle

http://www.accurateshooter.com/compe...basics-in-usa/
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Old August 9, 2012, 06:44 PM   #8
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But....
It's not just a long barrel that's needed to get that 3000 fps.
It needs to be a slow twist, like a 13 or 14 from what I've read, to keep the bullets from blowing up- though I readily admit I know very little about Palma shooting.

It seems to be the combination of length- and slow twist- that makes the formula work.

The OP seems to be trying to use Palma bullets, out of a "traditional" length/twist barrel...and I don't believe that's a path I would travel.

There was a .308 Hart Palma barrel on GB I was looking at a few weeks ago.
Cut back to 26" from it's original 32" length, and set-back and re-chambered as well. I was looking for a .308 match barrel for my son's Savage .308, and almost put in a bid- and then I read it was a 14 twist....

As the saying goes, I think that barrel is about as useless as ti** on a bull...what can you do with a 26", .308 match barrel with a 14 twist?
Sure, you can shoot those light Palma bullets- but not at the velocity you need for long range.
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Old August 9, 2012, 08:12 PM   #9
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My barrel is 26" with 1:12 twist.

Will chrono those A-max's soon.

Will load up some 175 SMK with Varget and post results.

What is an "OP"?

If I could just lower heart rate by about half, I may be able to shoot a good group.....
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Old August 9, 2012, 08:49 PM   #10
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yes,OP means just what you said.

I would stick with a 175g or highter.some are even getting a 185gn berger to work for them.for me in my 5R I am wanting to try the 185gn Berger BT ( juggernaunt ) with 4064.just need the heat to go away before I start testing.

44-45gn of varget should do you fine just work up to it.I load 44gn of varget with a 175gn SMK at 2.800 and get great accuracy.

one more thing to think about.speed doesn't always mean accuracy.I know what your looking for but keep this in mind.the 175gn bullet don't always need to be supersonic to get out to 1000.
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Old August 9, 2012, 09:19 PM   #11
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HShack, here is another good article


http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/tag/palma/
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Old August 9, 2012, 09:51 PM   #12
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For what it's worth, the 7.62 NATO chambered Garands did best at long range with their 24 inch 1:12 twist barrel shooting Sierra 190's over 44 grains of IMR4320 going out at about 2600 fps. If your 26 inch barrel's got a groove diameter of .3000" or less, it may well be a tack driver with that load at 1000 yards.

5R milspec claims
Quote:
one more thing to think about.speed doesn't always mean accuracy.I know what your looking for but keep this in mind.the 175gn bullet don't always need to be supersonic to get out to 1000
While a 175 will shoot well over two miles, if it goes subsonic before 1000 yards, it'll not be accurate at 1000. Folks shooting 172's and 180's out of M14's with worn out or oversize 22 inch barrels had that problem. All bullets expected to be accurate through 1000 yards have to be supersonic going through the target at that range.

Last edited by Bart B.; August 9, 2012 at 09:58 PM.
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Old August 10, 2012, 12:04 AM   #13
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Beware of the wind, its not your friend
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Old August 10, 2012, 07:23 AM   #14
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Regarding the following link posted earlier:

http://www.accurateshooter.com/compe...basics-in-usa/

it's got some misleading info in it. For example, the author's comments are in bold print:

Can you use a .30-06? No, the .30-06 was dropped from the Palma Rifle rule in the late 1980′s by someone with no sense of history and no common sense. How are we going to get Garand and Springfield match shooters interested in Palma shooting if we tell them their cartridge isn’t allowed?

I wrote the first NRA High Power Rule Book's US Palma Rifle rule in the late 1980's; it stated simply that any rifle chambered for either the .308 Win/7.62NATO or .30-06 cartridge could be used. I included the '06 so folks having a 30 caliber US service rifle as their only rifle to shoot with could use it; the NRA High Power Committee endorsed it an it went into print. The reason the High Power Committee later removed the '06 was so more people would learn about using the .308 Win. as that's the only round allowed in International Palma (and Fullbore) competition. The Committee's objectives was to get better qualified people trying out for the US Palma Team. They had a good sense of history and good common sense for the objectives they wanted to meet.

The reason I usually shoot heavier bullets is simply that I don’t like shooting close to 3000 fps with a .308 and that’s what the 155s require (2970 fps is fairly normal for a 155gr Palma load). At those velocities, the chance of a bullet blowing up in mid-flight is increased and when that happens, you just lost 10 points. I view any chance of a bullet blow-up as an unacceptable risk to my chances at a major tournament; by shooting a heavier bullet at a lower velocity, I reduce that risk considerably. My wind-reading skills are fairly well-developed so the 155 holds little appeal for me.

If one uses the age-old formula to compute a bullet's spin rate (MV in fps times 720 divided by twist in inches), they'll quickly learn that .30-06's shooting 150-gr. bullets out at about 2900 fps in a 1:10 twist get spun a lot faster than a 155-gr. bullet fired at 3000 fps from a 1:13 twist. And I'm not aware of any issues with that bullet flying apart fired from M1903A3 Springfields since 1906 and M1 Garands since 1937 as well as all those commercial hunting rifles with 1:10 twists shooting 150's since the early 1900's. Nor has any country in the British Commonwealth shooting 7.62 NATO M80 ball ammo's 147-gr. bullets in their fullbore target rifles with 1:13 twists leaving at 3000 fps since the 1960's; same for the US military's M14 shooting that bullet out at 2800 fps from a 1:12 twist. There's lots of very accurate bullets tiny-grouping at 1000 yards that spin faster than 30 caliber 155's leaving at 3000 fps from a 1:13 twist twisting through the air as the leave the muzzle at 166,154 rpm's. Go figure. And I addressed the wind bucking differences between 155's and 190's earlier.

Last edited by Bart B.; August 10, 2012 at 07:34 AM.
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Old August 10, 2012, 10:28 AM   #15
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Bart B, The links I posted have been round for a long time on a site that F-Class shooter post on.

You can publish articles over there and I'm surprised that you haven't with you history.

I don't see your name anywhere in this article

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com...lma-match.html
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Old August 11, 2012, 08:17 PM   #16
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Old Roper, in the article you mentioned (that my name's not in) has the following comment about the 1988 match in Australia:
Quote:
The first Palma match fired in Australia, in 1988, was a triumph for the home team and something close to a disaster for the United States. Finishing fourth is not a familiar location for United States Palma teams.
In 1987, the Australian Palma Team sent sample ammo of the same lot that, by rules, was to be used in the following years match. It shot very good in chambers the US Team had put in barrels they got for their Palma rifles so the bullets would jam gently into the rifling for best accuracy. A friend won a 1000-yard benchrest match shooting his Palma rifle with that arsenal-loaded military match ammo. I, too, got excellent results with it at 600 through 1000 yards.

When the US Team got on the range near Sydney, NSW, to get zeros and practice, we noticed the ammo issued had different headstamps than what we were issued months earlier; even the cases were more shiny and yellow colored. It did not shoot well in our barrels; 'twas all we could do to keep fired bullets in the 9 ring. And it was loaded at much higher pressures than the "sample" lot issued the year before. Same for most other country's team barrels except for Great Britian and either New Zeland or Canada; whomever placed third. The Aussies (illegaly) switched ammo and custom chambered their rifles for it; no wonder they won when most other Teams had chambers dimensioned for a different lot of ammo. Protests from those Teams were shushed by the International Palma Committee; mostly comprised of Great Britian Commonwealth country folks.

For the next World Palma matches in 1992, the US Team sent other countries exactly the same ammo in late 1991 that was issued to teams in 1992.
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Old August 12, 2012, 08:00 PM   #17
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"My barrel is 26" with 1:12 twist.

Will chrono those A-max's soon."
***************

OK.... I chrono'd the Hornaday 155 gr, Palma cartridge [2,850 fps. on the box]. Average of 5 shots I got 2,821 fps.

Hornaday Ballistic Calculator shows it's still superswonic [1,209] at 1,000 yds.

Looking forward to comparing these with the 175 gr. SMK.
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Old August 13, 2012, 07:47 AM   #18
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HShack, Hornady's published G1 BC for that bullet's lower than Sierra's 155's have. I don't know how Hornady derives their bullet's BC's; if it's by shape/weight calculations it may be incorrect. If by time of flight tests between two points, then it's probably good.

You'll have to see how it performs at 1000 yards to be sure.
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Old August 13, 2012, 08:04 AM   #19
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How tight were the groupings with the 155 grain factory ammo, and did you have an opportunity to try them at distance?

I'm interested in hearing how it all works out for ya. I think you'll find that the conventional wisdom of heavier/higher BC bullets (the 175's) is going to be a better performer from a "conventional" barrel at long range- esp. if the wind is blowing, but -- every rifle is different.

Good luck with it. If you got tight groups with the 155's it might work out. My son's .308 hates lighter bullets, even the 168 MKs don't shoot as well.
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Old August 13, 2012, 08:07 AM   #20
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While the 155s might hold tighter groupings at 100 and maybe 200 yards, I would put money on them being out shot by 168s and 175s when you push them further than that.

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Old August 13, 2012, 12:23 PM   #21
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allaroundhunter states:
Quote:
While the 155s might hold tighter groupings at 100 and maybe 200 yards, I would put money on them being out shot by 168s and 175s when you push them further than that.
Why?
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Old August 13, 2012, 12:34 PM   #22
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Groups

"How tight were the groupings with the 155 grain factory ammo, and did you have an opportunity to try them at distance?"


Groupings........Schools out on that one. First- a qualifier. I am 72 years old. Done a lot of shooting; mostly hunting. Overweight, causing fast heartbeat. Eyesight poor, new glasses on order. Our wooden bench needs to be concrete. I could use some instruction on how to shoot off a bench.

Before I got this Rem. 700 SPS Varmint, I had never shot a group less than 1 1/2".

My first ever group @ 100 yds. with the 700 was 4 shots in approx. .60" ,one ragged hole. The 5th shot was called out and opened the group to approx. 1.1"

Second group was 4 shots in approx. .52". Fifth shot called out and opened the group to approx. 1.02".

Will take some work before I get to 1,000 yds.
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Old August 13, 2012, 01:13 PM   #23
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"My first ever group @ 100 yds. with the 700 was 4 shots in approx. .60" ,one ragged hole. The 5th shot was called out and opened the group to approx. 1.1"

Second group was 4 shots in approx. .52". Fifth shot called out and opened the group to approx. 1.02".
"


That is some fine shootin' for an old dude, who's blind in one eye and can't see out the other!

Keep it up!
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Old August 13, 2012, 10:21 PM   #24
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We (PSMA) shoot F class (and Palma/long range) at Ft Gordon, and we have people older than you shooting. You do not have to be a member to shoot.

I would work up a load with either Varget or RL15 IN A WINCHESTER CASE with the 155 AMax, 45 grains should get you to 1000 yards supersonic. I would not go higher than that, and definitely would not start with that. My 46 grain Varget loads for my Palma rifle are way too hot for my older Remington 308 VS.

The 175 Sierra is just fine for 1000 yard shooting, I trounced most of the Marine Corps shooting team with M14's at a 1000 yard match at Ben Avery in AZ when I lived there. That was with a Danish Var Garand shooting LC match brass and 47 grains of Varget. Came in 3rd even with 2 misses when we had a 180 degree wind shift.

PM me if you are really serious to shoot with us. I don't shoot much long range, its either across the course or long range, and I don't have time for both, but been tempted to try the LR game again.
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Old August 15, 2012, 04:40 PM   #25
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Hey- nice shooting.
Don't be intimidated going to long range. If you can shoot around 1/2 minute, you're better than a lot of us. You've either got a supremely accurate stick, or you're adding no shooter error to the mix.

The range we frequent has 1000 yard plates we can hit off the same bench, just down the "ditch" from the 600 yard ones. Played around with a few shots at 1000, but it is a different ballgame than 600. Doping the wind is new for us at 600, at 1000 it really requires some experience.

But if you can get a near windless day, or at least one with light, consistent wind, it's just a matter of dialing the turrets. Stretch it's legs- it's fun, and the only way to learn. We sometimes get frustrated by the "misses", but that's the reason we each bring 100 rounds!
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