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Old August 13, 2012, 08:39 PM   #26
grubbylabs
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Oh and just so its settled, a GSP is a GSP; a GWP is a GWP etc. It doesn't matter if its called that in German or in English its still the same breed. Calling ones dog a Duetsch Kurzhaar or Drahthaar doesn't make it any more special than a GSP or GWP.
It does make a big difference, again what is the minimum standard for breeding an AKC dog? Simple, if the dog is registered then that is all there is to it. For the dogs in the German and some other breed clubs, but specifically the Germans ones since that seems to be of debate, the dog has to meet certain standards before it is allowed to breed, both in function and form. If you argue that this is no big deal, then why do you put so much weight on the pedigree of your dogs?


As you know with retrievers, getting the most out of your pup starts with knowing which pedigree mix to buy from. I would wager that if mom and pop Johnson breed their minimum pedigree lab with the neighbors lab who also had nothing significant in its pedigree you would probably pass or give not much more than $100.00-$200.00 for the pup. But if the owner of one of the top ten dogs in the nation breed their labs and you had the money, you would probably be in line for one.

In the German breeding system each aspect of the dogs abilities are scored so that it is easier to find a complement to that dog. Each dog is scored on their tracking, pointing,retrieving, cooperation, and confirmation. And in the case of the DD they are tested on both fur and blood tracking, I am not sure about others.

Each dogs scores are recorded by the test judges on that dogs pedigree so that when you want to breed your dog, you have a reasonable guestamation of the other dogs abilities and weaknesses.

Unlike labs there is not difference between field trial dogs and show dogs since they hunt test and judge conformation on every dog, and field trials do not exist for these dogs.

You and I and any one else who has been around labs for more than ten minutes can see the difference between a field trail lab and a dog show lab just by looking at them. I would also bet that neither one would make ideal hunting companions. I have seen my fair share of both fail miserably in the duck blind.
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Old August 13, 2012, 09:53 PM   #27
Hansam
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Just like a lab though there is no distinction based just on WHERE the animal was bred. It'd be like saying that labs bred in say New York were better than labs bred in Ohio. Its not the case.

I do understand the concept of mixing bloodlines and pedigrees and the value of pedigrees. You're correct that like other trainers I'm in a rather special position (shared only by other trainers and breeders of high end retrievers) where I can look at a dog's pedigree and bloodlines and be able to tell you if I've got a good chance at getting a dog that's worth anything in the test and trial circuit. Even then as you said it's still just a "guestimation" or an educated guess. I've had a few dogs bred from very highly awarded pedigrees that have turned out to be completely worthless as a test/trial dog. As a result I've had to sell them off - a couple of them at a great loss after considering cost of the puppy, care and feeding of the puppy and training time and resources involved for it to become a trial dog. Instead of being able to sell the finished dog for say $5000 to $10000 I had to settle for anywhere from $1500 to $3500. That's about pedigree though and if you deal with breeders who breed according to the requirements that we, as sportsmen, are looking for then it shouldn't matter WHERE the dog is bred just what the pedigree of the puppy is.

You know as well as I do, perhaps even better than I do, that if you breed two dogs that have great pedigrees you have a great chance of the litter bearing the parents' great genetics. Where they were bred has no bearing at all on those genetics. A puppy bred from master hunters who are also carry FC, NFC, AFC, MH and/or MNH distinctions in their names will most likely be able to become an accomplished and highly awarded hunter too. The deeper into the dogs' pedigree these accomplishments run (ie. going back 2,3 even 4 generations or more) will result in a "condensing" of such genetics and further increase the possibilities of the puppies inheriting the genetic traits of the parents and predecessors. Again this has nothing to do with WHERE the dog was bred or what language its name is in. My latest puppy, being bred from parents who were not only master hunters and champions but also came from multiple generations of master hunters and champions, has more of a chance of becoming another master hunter and champion than say a puppy bred from your average run of the mill dogs whose owners just SAY they're excellent hunters.

That was the point I was trying to make - its all about genetics and pedigree rather than WHERE the dog is bred. Sure here in America there are a lot of breeders who breed for conformity so they actually are actively breeding out the physical abilities of the dogs that they were originally bred for. That's evident in all sporting breeds. I wouldn't say though that you can't find a great GSP or GWP that was bred here in America and that you HAD to go to Germany to get them. As I've said before I've seen a lot of MH and FC GSP and GWP that weren't bred in Germany and were called GSP or GWP and did not have German language names. I may not train in that field but I'm not entirely ignorant of dogs in that field either.
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Old August 13, 2012, 10:48 PM   #28
grubbylabs
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I never said location of breeding had any thing to do with it, my pup was born and breed her in the U.S.

What does make a difference is the breeding standards. If you notice the Germans refer to the dog as the "Wire hair" or the "Short Hair" Pointer is not part of the name. When most people think if a German wire hair or short hair here in the U.S. they automatically associate it with pointer, hence the abbreviation GWP, GSP. This is because here in the U.S. breeders have focused on the pointing aspect of the breed in general. Very few breed with versatility in mind, and with show breeding common here in the states and inter breeding between the field and show lines, I can't see how any one would think the German version and the AKC version are exactly the same. They may look similar, and some breed in the AKC system will without a doubt show an aptitude for versatility, but they are not the same. You can't change what decades of breeding has done to the AKC version of the breed.
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Old August 14, 2012, 07:21 AM   #29
Hansam
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I'm sorry I took it as you were talking about location. You'd led me to believe you were making a point about where your puppy was born. So if the dog was born here in America what makes it a Drahthaar rather than a Wirehair?

Anyway if you're talking about a truly versatile dog you don't have to buy a DD or DK. You could just go get yourself an American Plott Hound. This breed is probably the premier small to large game hunting dog in America and perhaps in the world. This breed will hunt and track everything that has feathers, fur, hair etc. I bet they'd track and hunt fish too if fish didn't live in an environment that dogs can't survive in - under water. I know a Plott Hound that tracked and retrieved downed birds, chased rabbits, treed coons and bayed bear and deer all the same - and you know what? It never received ANY hunt training. All it got was obedience training.
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Old August 14, 2012, 08:42 AM   #30
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what makes it a Drahthaar rather than a Wirehair?
Drahthaar does mean wire hair. What sets it apart is the breed club and the standards it is breed in. Instead of the breed club being here in America, it is in Germany. They (the German breed club) Make sure that all breeding are done to the standards set forth by the club are followed. The first time these dogs are inspected is at 8 weeks when each is given a ear tattoo for identification. Then as I said above, each dog owner who has ambitions of breeding their dog must test their dog in multiple required hunt and conformation tests where the dog is evaluated on multiple aspects not just their upland abilities.

And yes compared to the AKC hunt tests/field trials that you participate in the dogs interact much less with the handler. This does not mean that the dog has minimal training, it's training is just a little different. I will still FF my dog and teach him to handle, I just won't worry if he does not follow the exact line I send him on.
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Old August 14, 2012, 04:38 PM   #31
markj
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Oh and just so its settled, a GSP is a GSP; a GWP is a GWP etc
I agree 100%, the snobs like to use the DK name tho. Makes them feel better and them dkvs go for a couple grand in some cases. I was just pointing out their method, they do cold blood track as part of their "test".

Or you could just go get a bloodhound My Dad had flushers, springers, I hunted over a shorthair way back in the 70s havent looked at another dog.
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Old September 23, 2012, 07:53 PM   #32
celtgun
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Blood trailing dogs

The hunting shows filmed in Africa often have Jack Russells on them.
They are smart little rascals, brave to the death. I just have never seen one that was disciplined one bit, I am sure this was owner's fault. Any dog can be obedience trained, time and firm patience will do it.

The Plott is the best breed I ever hunted with. Brave, strong, skilled.
Most of all they seek to please their owner for love.
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Old September 24, 2012, 06:22 AM   #33
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I didn't teach him per se' but I used to have a Brittany that would point deer. Used him several times to find "unfindable" deer especially in tall CRP grass.
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Old September 24, 2012, 01:15 PM   #34
FlySubCompact
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Good thread. Lot of info.

Made me recall several threads at the Bowsite.com's Deer forum and the Leatherwall forum (stickbow.com). Did a google search and found this article written by the owner of the that site. Article also has a link to another site on tracking deer with dogs.

http://www.bowsite.org/bowsite/featu...dogs/index.cfm
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Old October 1, 2012, 02:33 PM   #35
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Got a black lab that is absolutely worthless on ducks and he sometimes likes to start eating doves when he gets them. But,,, I can let him smell a bloody arrow and he will follow the trail to the deer. I didn't train him to do it, he just does it instinctively. Problem is, he won't stay with the deer after he finds it, he goes looking for something else to find but he will follow the trail to the deer so he is useful. I keep him in practice by letting him trail the deer even if I've already found it. Just take the dog out there and try him, you might be surprised.
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