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Old August 27, 2012, 10:18 AM   #1
hulley
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How do you pick a powder?

What criteria do you use to determine which powder to use? Do you go by pressure, pistol, magnum, rifle, slow burn, fast burn, etc?

So far I've only used AAC#5 and W231 for 9mm. I bought Unique and 2400 not long ago along with dies for 38/357 and 30-30. I'm ordering 158gr hard cast 38/357 bullits this week and want to start reloading those soon.

I've heard people say 2400 is great for magnums and Unique is great for pistol but I dont know why. I would like to understand powders a little better so I can make an informed decision rather than go with what others are using.

Thanks
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Old August 27, 2012, 10:25 AM   #2
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read many manuals; subscribe to "Handloader" magazine

I found it best to buy and test for myself.
I did considerable study before buying.
I still buy and test.

Understanding "burn rate" helps.
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Old August 27, 2012, 10:43 AM   #3
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This is a bit costly, but through.
http://www.riflemagazine.com/catalog...ubcategoryid=8
You might want to get a free subscription to Handloader (one issue).
Good luck
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Old August 27, 2012, 11:03 AM   #4
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WHen I need to choose a new powder I go straight to Lymans manual and look at what powders they used for their data, for the round and weight in question. They use the powders that get published that give them the best results. They list which powder gave the best accuracy in bold type. This is a fairly bulletproof way to choose powder even you do not know much about burn rates. (still a good idea to know though).

There will always be loaders who choose obscure powders and report fantastic results perhaps, but they are usually advanced re-loaders trying to make something very specific for their needs. For newer reloaders with less experience, or for general purpose range ammo and such, going by the book powders is the preferred method.

Barrel length sorta plays a part in it also. Lymans loads are listed in order of burn rate, with the faster powders at the top and descending. Loosely speaking, longer barrels will like slower powders and short barrels will do better with faster powders. Unique will work good in your 9mm.
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Old August 27, 2012, 11:58 AM   #5
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I have a -LOT- of powders but some I don't use much, or don't use much anymore.

I like a powder that meters well.
Spherical powders and extremely small flake powders do great through my Lyman 55. Power Pistol, anything by Accurate, Titegroup, 2400, Longshot, etc. These all work well. Blue Dot, Green Dot, Unique and IMR-800X are at the far other end of the spectrum. This isn't as big a deal with heavier charge weights, but in small charges, you get erratic drops and erratic performance.

I like a powder that has good published load data available.
Hodgdon's online Reloading Data Source is an extremely quick, flexible, powerful and enjoyable to use resource and it makes me ALWAYS look at Hodgdon branded powders first. At the other end of the spectrum, Alliant's online data source is extremely pathetic and what's worse is that they've copied the result of the website for their published guide. I typically refer to my 2005 printed Alliant guide because it was the last one they made before they went stupid.

Obviously, there are many other published sources and I have 3 popular large manuals and you can sometimes get good load data from the bullet manufacturers, too, but I like to get data from the powder distributors.

I like a powder that is widely available and not overly expensive.
That means I've avoided Vihtavuori powders for more than 20 years. From all I've read, they are FANTASTIC powders in many different ways, but I can accomplish what I set out to do with powders from the more common powders, so I've stuck to them. I've also not bought any Ramshot powders for the same reasons though I'm sure they are decent as well.

I like a powder that returns a high velocity and a full charge that takes most of the available space.
This is merely an indicator that you are picking a powder of the proper speed & type for the use. Using ultra-fast burning target powders in hardcore, high-pressure loads is a HORRIBLE idea and I don't support it no matter what drives someone to do it. Using the proper powder gives better results -- and YES, it forces to buy more powders and it limits how many different things you can do with your ONE powder but it pays off in performance and safety. You won't see me building .357 and .44 Magnum loads with Bullseye and Titegroup even when my load calls for three times as much 2400 than you can get with W231.

A good way to choose a powder can be to make your own criteria (or borrow someone else's, if you like their argument) and then start a thread asking for suggestions.

Don't say, "I want to load .357, what powder should I get?"

Instead say, "I want to load .357 Magnum for a 4-inch S&W 686 using 158 grain jacketed bullets. I'd like to make some midrange loads that my 12-year old can shoot and I'd like to try some real barn-burners that push the limits of the caliber as well."

We know that you can shoot 148 grain swaged hollow-base wadcutters in .38 Special at 750 FPS and you can shoot a 180 grain JSP at 1,200 FPS through the same revolver but don't expect to be able to build those loads to the best of their abilities with the same powder.
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Old August 27, 2012, 12:34 PM   #6
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Thanks guys, this really helps clear things up. I expect to be loading some .38spl this week for use in a LCR and 3" SP101, I want to use these for target and a bowling pin shoot. I've been scanning my manual for a load and seeing what powders are used in the data while I'm also planning on picking up some H-110 and W296 along with some "Hot" primers . BTW I'll be using a 158gr hardcast boolit if anyone has a recipe they want to share.
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Old August 27, 2012, 12:40 PM   #7
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Quote:
I've heard people say 2400 is great for magnums and Unique is great for pistol but I dont know why.
Simply this. 2400 powder is a slower burning powder. Therefore 2400 takes time to build up pressure when it ignites and burns for a longer period of time as the bullet travels down the barrel. Therefore it is a good candidate for a 'magnum' (high speed) load as the pressure is 'distributed' as it pushes the bullet down the bore. Slow powers are 'bad' for light/medium loads as the powder will not function as well at lower pressures and you get a lot of unburnt powder and/or erratic velocities (not good for accuracy).... Faster burning powders like Unique are great for light to medium loads as the build pressure 'quickly' or 'spike'. If you try to use these powders for 'magnum' loads, they 'over pressure' as you the pressure is built 'all at once' (A sharper spike in pressure) to get the bullet moving to higher velocities. That's it in a nutshell of why you pick one over the other. That's why you will see H-110, 2400, 4227, AA#9 used for high pressure (high velocity) loads. Unique, Red Dot, Trail Boss, Green Dot for lower velocity loads.

To but it another way (not real numbers here), But to to get 1400fps with Unique it would generate say 80,000psi (blow your cylinder up) whereas with 2400 it would take 40,000psi. Yet 2400 would not be a good candidate to get to 700fps as it wouldn't burn well and get erratic velocities. That is where Unique would step in to be the better powder for this case.

Hope that kind of helps in layman's language why we pick different powders. You pick the one best for what you trying to accomplish.
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Old August 27, 2012, 12:40 PM   #8
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Sevens,

Very well said. My accolades.

OSOK
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Old August 27, 2012, 01:14 PM   #9
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Quote:
Sevens,
Very well said. My accolades.
Thats exactly what I was thinking! rclark, that was excellent also.

Do powders usually state if they are fast or slow?
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Old August 27, 2012, 02:44 PM   #10
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Quote:
Do powders usually state if they are fast or slow?
No.... But there are tables out there (in the reloading manuals for sure and probably on-line) that show you the relative burn rates of most all available powders.

[edited] Here is one rate list : Powder Burn Rate Table

The best bet is just go to the reloading manual(s) for a specific bullet and look at the powders listed.... and pick one . They've done a lot of homework for you. You'll notice you won't find Unique used for the real hot .357 loads. But 2400 will be listed. Go to the .38 Special section and the list of powders changes again.

FWIW, for Unique and the 158g SWC I've tested Unique from 5.0g (958fps) to 7g (1191fps). Using the same bullet I tested 2400 from 13g (1235fps) to 14.5g (1347fps) . I liked 6.5g of Unique (1152fps) and 13.5g of 2400 (1270fps). Never saw any significant leading in all my testing with the Rimrock 158g SWC that I was using.

[edited] You notice that H-110, 2400, 4227 fall sort of in the middle of the burn rate table... Beyond that and you are into slower yet rifle powder territory which isn't applicable to revolver cartridges.
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Last edited by rclark; August 27, 2012 at 02:53 PM.
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Old August 27, 2012, 03:05 PM   #11
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Hulley,

The relative burn rates aren't precise enough to do more than roughly suggest what applications a powder might be useful for. The lists of rankings by burn rate don't tell how far apart two sequential listings are. To make matters worse, the charts don't all agree because their authors tried different lots of the same powders and guestimated from charge weight and resulting pressure and velocity what the burn rates were. I've seen Bullseye ranked fastest on one chart, 3rd fastest on another, 8th fastest on another, and 15th fastest on yet another. It's just not terribly useful information by itself.

The one kind of burn rate chart I think is a little more useful is the kind that lines powders from different makers up in a row. It tends to show all the powders that are useful for the same applications. Again, they may not all agree 100%, but I think this format is more useful because, once you know you like the performance of one powder, you can look it up in this kind of table and find others likely to give you similar performance on the same line or just a above or below it.

Accurate's chart is the type I like. So is GS Custom's. Just notice, again, they don't agree really well. That's OK. It gives you a sense of how far either side of the nominal burn rate you can go looking for a powder.

The QuickLOAD software also automates powder selection by providing a powder table function that checks all powder in its database (or a range of them you choose by burn rate) and gives you a table based on getting the same pressure, same velocity, same barrel time, same percent case fill, or other criterion you elect to make it adhere to. That often is a quick sorting method and you can choose from what's on the table. Unless I need extra high performance, I usually choose to reject the powders that have the lowest ballistic efficiency because they will make the most flash, have the heaviest charge weights (cost more to use), and typically leave the most fouling to clean up.
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Old August 27, 2012, 03:44 PM   #12
hulley
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Thanks for the replies everyone. rclark its funny you mention the 38/357, last night I was going through my manual (apparently not close enough) and I noticed the difference in powders between the 38/357 loads. That was the main idea behind the post.

I apologize if these seem like dumb questions, especially for someone who is reloading. I did read my manual when I got it I (a little over a year ago) but having never reloaded, alot of the material never stuck in my head. I'm gonna read my manual closer now and with the info I learned here today I will have a much better idea of what to look for. I'm gonna go ahead a pick up another manual for more references.

Thanks again and I greatly appreciate the input everyone has givin me.

Steve
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Old August 27, 2012, 04:26 PM   #13
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I started using Greendot for my 45 because it was available in large numbers a few years ago. It works well and the shelves are always full of it.
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Old August 27, 2012, 04:48 PM   #14
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I tested Green Dot and liked it also in .45 Colt, .44Spec, .44Mag, and .357. I used to be just a Unique and 2400 sort of guy. All I ever needed for peanut up to big bore.... But since the last 'scare', I started a crusade to test a 'range' of powders, so if 'my' powder gets scarce again, I can fall back on other powder loads that I know will work too. Even prompted me to get a chronograph.... It's actually been fun, although I now have a 'bunch' of powders sitting on my shelf! In some cases, it has changed the powder I will generally use, such as 5.0g Red Dot (both 158g SWC and 125g SWC/TC) for my target loads in .357 instead of Unique. I now know Universal is a good substitute for Unique as well.... Always something 'new' to learn ... and test....

Hulley, no need to apologize. There are no dumb questions.
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Last edited by rclark; August 27, 2012 at 05:13 PM.
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Old August 27, 2012, 04:58 PM   #15
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I apologize if these seem like dumb questions,
"The only dumb questions are the ones you already knew the answer to and asked anyway, and the ones that you needed to know the answer to but did not ask."

The second part is particularly true of questions relating to things that may blow up in your hand!
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Old August 27, 2012, 04:58 PM   #16
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Quote:
BTW I'll be using a 158gr hardcast boolit [in .357 Magnum] if anyone has a recipe they want to share.
I really like 8.0 grains of Herco powder. If that's not juicy enough for you, try a slower powder like AA#7 or 2400. And if it's too much (especially for the LCR), use a little faster powder like Unique or even Bullseye.

FWIW, I have never found a load that I like using Titegroup with cast bullets.
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Old August 27, 2012, 05:19 PM   #17
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Using the Unique and 2400 you just bought, the two loads I like with those powders under 158g SWC are :

Ruger BH 6 1/2" barrel (test gun)

6.5g of Unique for 1152fps (CCI-500 primer)
13.5g of 2400 for 1270fps (CCI-500 primer)

As said above I settled on 5.0g Red Dot for my Target load at 1019fps.

YMMV ...
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Old August 27, 2012, 05:51 PM   #18
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One of the considerations I use when selecting a powder is versatility.

I try to select one which gives good mid range velocities for the calibers I will be shooting.

Pistol I use Bulls eye, Unique, and WW296. I load 38/357, 44mag and 45ACP.

When I started reloading rifle I loaded IMR4350 exclusively. The newer Manuals do not list it for all of my calibers. Happily, it put me back to trying some new powders in order to find the one(s) which fit my needs.
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Old August 27, 2012, 09:28 PM   #19
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Powders on the shelf

Just ran down stairs and counted--18 different powders. It is lots of fun fiddling around trying different loads, running them over the chrony, different bullets, etc etc. Unless you are a really disciplined person (where is the fun in that!??) you can spend some dinero on this hobby.

Like some have already said, it makes sense to find a powder that might work for different calibers if you have more than one firearm of a certain type. My son has a 25-06 and I have a 270 Winchester. IMR 4831 works great for what loads we use, but heck, IMR 4350, RL 22, WW 760, IMR 4064, AA 3100 and others have certain applications. Then while working up a round for the Nosler 110 Accubond for the 25-06 I had to try Retumbo. It was worth it! Great velocity and 3/4 inch groups.

And then the varmint guns. And then the revolvers. Dang. And every time I read this forum there is some other component that tempts me back to the gun shop. Then a few hours at the bench, and then a trip to the range. That is my idea of heaven.
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Old August 27, 2012, 10:21 PM   #20
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To use a powder:
Semi auto pistols get Power Pistol
Revolvers get H110 or LIL'GUN
Rifles get H4895 or H4350
quiet carbines get 1 gr Red Dot
Down loaded 223s get Blue Dot

To buy a powder, when I am BSing in Lynnwood Guns, I have to buy something, so I buy whatever powder I don't have.
I already have:
Red Dot
Bullseye
Herter's 164
SR7625
Unique
AA#5
Power Pistol
HS-6
Blue Dot
2400
3N37
800-X
AA#7
N105
Long Shot
STEEL
Enforcer
AA#9
N110
H110
W296
LIL'GUN

XMP5744
RL-7
V-133
IMR3031
RL-10
AA2200
W748
CFE223
H335
RL-12
H4895
IMR4895
Norma 203
RL-15
Varget
H414
Re17
H4350
IMR4350
H4831SC
Re22
Retumbo
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Old August 27, 2012, 11:03 PM   #21
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My first criteria for powder is that it must measure well with my powder measure. I don't care to weigh each and every load. Ball powders do that well. Most flake powders do not. With lighter bullets or for softer shooting/slow rounds I prefer a faster burning powder. To move heavier bullets to a higher speed I want something that burns slower.

I have used a lot of AA powder this year. I used AA2 for 9 mm 115 grain and .38 special with 158 grain bullets. It worked in both but it wasn't quite as clean burning as I would like to have. AA5 with 115 grain bullet works but it is even better with 124 grain bullet. WST works much better with the .38 special and is very good in .45 acp. WST can even be used in 9 mm with good results as well as .40 S&W. I would not even try to load .357 magnum with a powder slower burning than AA5. I will try later this year to see how good I can get it to work. I think AA7 will be a better choice since it is a slower burning powder. Most of the powders I use for pistol loads are either AA or Winchester powders. They are fairly easy to get and the price is reasonable compared to powders like VV. VV is a great powder. The price seems to be the only bad thing I can find with VV.

I'm not loading lead bullets. Everything I'm loading now is jacketed so my particular loads probably are not what you are looking for.

I also like to have a back up load just in case I have problems getting a certain powder for a time.
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Old August 28, 2012, 03:09 PM   #22
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Quote:
My first criteria for powder is that it must measure well with my powder measure.
This is also high on my list. I do not use any powders that do not meter well. I also prefer my powders to burn cleanly and I want to have at least one "commonly available" powder for each gun that I can get at a local LGS.

For me, that means 3 powders for the calibers I reload for.

For .380/9mm/.38/.357mag(mild)/.45ACP I use HP38(readily available, good accuracy) and VV N320(incredibly clean and highly accurate)

For .32 Special I use H4895(readily available, accurate and clean). I only use 1 bullet and only need one powder for this gun.

If I get into loading full .357 magnum loads I guess I will need a 4th powder but for now I am very very happy with the 2 I use. In my state and living arrangement I can by fire code only keep 2# of powder and 1K primers inside so it is an advantage to me to have so few powders. Less running to the shed...


Quote:
We know that you can shoot 148 grain swaged hollow-base wadcutters in .38 Special at 750 FPS and you can shoot a 180 grain JSP at 1,200 FPS through the same revolver but don't expect to be able to build those loads to the best of their abilities with the same powder.
well said
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Old August 28, 2012, 03:18 PM   #23
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How do I pick a powder?

Well for me the Bullet I have chosen to test, picks the powder for me.

Meaning some bullets are pretty specific in what powder makeup makes them carry the mail, so to speak,,,, can you dig it?
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Old August 29, 2012, 12:16 PM   #24
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1. Manufacturers recomendations. For example, the reloading manuals that I use lists the most accurate powder tested for hunting purposes, and for accuracy (Sierra). I always chose the most accurate.

2. I also consider what others on this website as well as powders my friends/reloaders have had success with over the years. I always check their load data with my reloading manual(s).

3. I go the range and test my loads. The load that is consistently accurate gets the nod.

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Old August 29, 2012, 12:44 PM   #25
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Quote:
3. I go the range and test my loads. The load that is consistently accurate gets the nod
This is a key. I was convinced, based on reading, recommendations and initial testing that I had settled on the perfect powder (HP38) for 230gr FMJ bullets in my new SR1911. I loaded up various tweaked versions of the tested tested and proven load to find the perfect load- little longer, little shorter, tad more powder, tad less and for kicks, worked up a few other loads using N320. Lo and behold the best N320 load was even better than the best HP38 load in this particular gun. Apparently my gun doesnt know that HP38 should work better under a 230gr ball. It also doesnt know that I am not that good a shot because it insists on making me look good every time
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