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Old August 2, 2012, 08:27 AM   #26
hogdogs
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I don't make habit of questioning the ability of others without reason...

While not 165 yards but it was 42 yards with an 8-9 grain pellet...

In the following thread, I took out the air rifle with open sights just to make sure it and I were still "in tune"... No practice shots no warm up... Just laod and shoot... I was skeptical of myself on the first shot as it could have been a PURE LUCK shot so I backed it up with a second round after setting down the rifle and walking out to my spot, retrieving the can and shooting a pic then walking back out to put it up for a second shot... No real rest, just an elbow on my knee...
http://www.boartuffoutdoors.com/cgi-...6390;start=7#7

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Old August 2, 2012, 08:46 AM   #27
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Just another good reason for all of us to spend some time occassionally wringing out the handguns at extreme ranges, you never know when the situtation will present itself where an extreme long range shot may be necessary. Some of Elmer Keith's books should be required reading for every handgunner. A little well-practiced 'Kentucky windage' can go a long ways.
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Old August 2, 2012, 08:51 AM   #28
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Quote:
A little well-practiced 'Kentucky windage' can go a long ways.
AMEN!!! All the formal training in the world is only going to get you so far...

The ability to adapt, improvise and overcome is a wicked skill... Kentucky Windage or "Redneck scope doping" is crucial to me...

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Old August 2, 2012, 10:33 AM   #29
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Quote:
I don't make habit of questioning the ability of others without reason...
Extraordinary claims without extraordinary evidence is good reason as is the changing of the 'facts' with subsequent tellings.

Fine shot shot with your air rifle when there was no pressure, nobody's life on the line, no witnesses. So you made your first shot. Stacy claimed to have as well, only we now know he didn't. He did have witnesses or at least forensic evidence that will indicate more about how he actually shot. I am sure it was a long way. He says he shot the guy 5 times in a row. We shall see if these claims hold up. Right now, nobody has verified any of them other than he did shoot Conner and is credited with saving at least one and potentially several lives.
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Old August 2, 2012, 10:33 AM   #30
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Even if it is only half the distance, it still is a good shot.

Not a lot of people, probably myself included, would make that shot.
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Old August 2, 2012, 10:57 AM   #31
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Even if he had missed and run for cover without taking any more shots, the distraction may well have been enough to save to cop.


I have to respectfully disagree with Old Grump's position that not training for encounters past 7 yards is a waste of time. I do agree that it is GOOD to stretch your abilities.

The reasoning: the (debatable?) fact that merely pointing a handgun at an attacker is enough to end most attacks. If you fire and miss, that should end even more of them.

I don't know what the numbers are, but what percentage of attackers will continue when faced with a victim who is shooting at him?
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Old August 2, 2012, 12:08 PM   #32
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Stacy never served in the military or took any police or combat training courses but he is a hunter. My point on practic9ing beyond 7 yards is because of the questions already asked on this thread about bullet drop. Most people over estimate range and over estimate how much bullet drop they need. Those of us who have competed in bullseye rarely make a sight change between 25 and 50 yards because the 1 click difference means little.

I am a handgun hunter and the only deer I had to shoot twice was at 135 yards because I over estimated the drop I needed and just barely skinned the top of the head shooting from a rest. I shoot everything from 22 to 44 mag revolvers and pistols out to 200 yards just for chuckles and giggles, Trust me when you shoot 100 yard 8" targets one handed slow fire then go back to 25 yards and less it sharpens you up considerably. I know to many people who are dead eye dick at 7 yards and hopeless at 50' The bullet does not get tired, the sight picture is the same. The problem is up between the ears, they defeat themselves before they ever pull the trigger.

Stacy not only did it with his .357 revolver but he did it with Connors shooting back at him with his AR15. If he had never shot at those distances before how much chance would you have given him of coming out the victor?
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Old August 2, 2012, 01:54 PM   #33
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Interesting! Kudos to the citizen for helping the officer. This is a very thought provoking incident. I can't help but notice that he didn't use an SP-101, LCR, LCP, LWS, or other mouse gun. He had a 5" BBL. Enough sight radius and power to make a non-typical shot like this, which very likely saved a life. Could he have done the same with a Kel-Tec or other mouse gun?

This incident makes a good case for a full size carry pistol. I realize that the statistics say you need 1.5 shots or whatever and it'll be within 10 or 15 ft. That is a case for justifying a mouse gun.

It seems to me, that I am hearing more and more about atypical scenarios that happen that do not support the statistics. Everyone wants to be comfortable, and not lug around an M-60 if they don't have to, myself included. Where to draw the line?

I've carry a full size 1911 for well over 20 years, prolly closer to 30. I've had 4 close calls in that time. None of my incidents went outside of the Statistical range. No more than one shot was ever needed (both warning shots into the ground, 1-man, 1-dog) and at spitting distance. I thank God that I have never had to actually shoot anyone, but I digress...

All of my incidents could have been accomplished with a mouse gun. Does that mean that I would be adequately armed to carry a mouse gun? Well, yes and no. History says yes, but the modern world says no. Life can throw you an atypical scenario suddenly. So, in keeping with (the cliche's!) of I'd rather have it and not need it, rather than need it and not have it...and don't take a knife to a gunfight...I suggest everyone carry as much gun as they possibly can, just in case.
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Old August 2, 2012, 02:08 PM   #34
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Good witness, local LE, long range shooting with handguns....

Many of the forum members praise the gun owner for his extended range shot & I, too give him credit for his efforts but I also say that this use of force event should be viewed with caution for other CC license holders/private citizens too.

As an armed citizen, you & your actions will reviewed in detail by law enforcement and/or local prosecutors. Shooting at a violent criminal(s) at long ranges may be a issue to some criminal investigators/District Attys.
I can tell you both as a armed professional & a concealed carry license holder, there are many sworn LE officers would rather have private citizens be; "a good witness" then engage violent subjects.
After the big "Treyvon Martin/George Zimmerman" incident, my local PD(a agency with approx 800 sworn officers) posted a website notice about how citizens should: "not provoke & not pursue" violent criminals.
The concept of shooting at or using lethal force at extended distances will be critized. Even if a sworn LE officer was involved.
Now, I'm not saying you shouldn't assist LE or use lethal force in a critical incident, just use good judgement & common sense.
If you fire a long range shot & it misses or worse, hits a bystander; you'll be in a serious jam. Sworn LE officers have lawyers, insurance polices, union-trade groups and/or public safety officials to support them. An armed citizen may not.

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ps; for those forum members who say LE officers have a harder time or are under more constraints than armed citizens, I disagree. A local police sniper on a SWAT call-out shot & killed a unarmed female hostage by mistake. The large PD cleared the SWAT officer of all criminal charges, allowed him to stay on the job and stationed him at the airport.
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Old August 2, 2012, 02:18 PM   #35
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I have always tried out my service sized handguns at 100yds. When I have mentioned this on this forum and others, I was scoffed at, and there were always those who claimed anything over 7yds was a waste, and "good luck explaining to a jury why you didn't just run away".
Well, I spend some time in the woods, and trusting that an opponent is a bad shot, and running away just does not seem to be very bright.
Shooting a pistol at long range requires sight picture, breathing control, and trigger control, as well as the ability to adopt a solid field position, preferably from cover and concealment.
My carry pistol is a Glock 26. With it, I easily shoot a 10" steel plate at 40yds. When I pick out a point on the 100yd berm, I am hitting right on it.
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Old August 2, 2012, 02:48 PM   #36
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Anything over 7 yards is a waste?,,,

Well maybe it is and maybe it isn't,,,
But it's fun as all heck.

Every time I go to the range,,,
I always throw at least one cylinder/mag at 200 yards,,,
I just pick a spot on the berm and blast away for the heck of it.

With my 686 and something to rest the gun on,,,
I think I could hit a man at 200 yards,,,
Certainly not with every shot,,,
But at least two of 'em.

Shucks,,,
Now I gotta buy some silhouette targets,,,
Just to see if I can do what I think I might could do.

In any case,,,
Kudos to old Vic Stacy.

Aarond

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Old August 2, 2012, 05:34 PM   #37
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Sometime last year I hung some 9" steel plates in our family pasture near a berm we made as a family range. This morning I was bush-hogging and after putting the tractor away I decided to take the pistol out of the truck and try my luck.

At a measured 100 yards, I am 1-for-3 on a 9" steel plate. Who'd a thunk it? I need to drag out the B27 targets and see how that works. This might get interesting.
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Old August 2, 2012, 06:40 PM   #38
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If you’re armed with a handgun and the guy shooting at you has an AR-15, every shot you take is going to be a tough shot, no matter what the range.

Having the skill to make the shot is one thing; having the guts to stand your ground and keep shooting after you’ve been hit with fragments is something very different.
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Old August 2, 2012, 07:11 PM   #39
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This is why I carry a full size handgun. You can fight with it at longer ranges if you have to. As to the range of the shot, could it be that when the police investigated they measured it? Some people are pretty good shots at longer ranges with handguns. I shot prarie dogs for years with several handguns with and without scopes so I realize it's certainly doable. My favorite Silhouette revolver was a model 28 S&W in 357 magnum. I shoot regularly out to 200 yards with all my handguns and know how much front sight to holdover the rear to hit. This guy certainly accomplished what needed doing and put himself at risk to do it, so I commend him for sure.
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Old August 2, 2012, 09:04 PM   #40
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Slightly off topic but part of a point...

A recent member post about "lucky" shots or firearm shots that seemed incredible reminds me of a old 1980s era video made by Second Chance's Richard Davis(the owner/CEO & ex-cop of the firm).
Davis was in a big rural field & wanted to dispell the Hollywood myth of a handgun round being able to "stop" a motor vehicle.
He fired one/01 round from a large .44magnum DA revolver at the engine block of a 1970s era sedan(engine-model unknown). I don't recall the range Davis fired from but it was about 20-25 yards away. The .44 bullet cut through the big car's hood & damaged the vehicle causing it to stop immediately.
Even Davis was shocked by the outcome.
He showed how the .44magnum bullet cut through several wires & part, saying it was a "one in a 1,000,000 shot".
These events are very rare but can occur. Nearly every New Years the local media reports how people are seriously injured or killed by "stray rounds" fired by party guests or gun owners who fired in the air. I'm sure other members have heard the same news reports in their areas too.

It's a bit off the main subject here but it shows that bullets can & do go all over.
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Old August 2, 2012, 11:55 PM   #41
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My source says it was over 100 yards but not sure yet by how much.

Either way, that is some fine shooting.

When I shot PPC I did all my practice from 50 yards, if you can make that everything closer is easy. Rural shootings are sometimes different from urban shootings, in that, the ranges are extended. The US Border Patrol for example does get into shoot outs at extended distances.

How is someone shooting an unknown weapon at you from 200 yards less a threat than at 10 yards? Depending on the circumstances, shooting back may or may not be the wisest course of action.
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Old August 3, 2012, 12:44 AM   #42
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Lucky shot, or ...

... the guy knew his revolver well. The balistic calculator at:

http://www.handloads.com/calc/

indicates about a 25" drop at 165 yards when the .357 magnum 125 grain JHP is fired at 1400 fps and sighted in at 50 yards. Was weather a factor ? Even a slight breeze at that distance is going to have an effect.

A very lucky shot I'm thinking, or the guy has practiced long range shooting with that revolver a lot and with what it was loaded with. I think the citizen was very, very lucky that the bad guy did not take out the officer and then turn the rifle on the good samaritan. Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear eats you. I'm glad it turned out good for the good guys. It sure took a lot of courage on the part of the resident who stepped in with his .357 magnum. My hat is off to him.
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Old August 3, 2012, 01:17 AM   #43
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I suspect that he made a guess and aimed a bit high but didn't aim quite high enough and that's why his first hit was about 2 feet low. (Thigh instead of torso).

Of course, you have to be pretty good to get that lucky. Even if he was guessing a little on elevation, he still held very well on his horizontal aim to be able to hit a 2 foot wide target at 165 yards (I'll keep using that figure since it's all we have).

That's roughly comparable to hitting a 3.8" wide target at 25 yards. Impressive for someone having no previous experience with armed "hostilities", shooting under field conditions and fighting adrenalin.
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Old August 3, 2012, 08:58 AM   #44
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If memory servese

I remember a pdf of an old Field Manual that had sight settings (Holds) for long range fire with the 1911A1. I may have seen it on TFL or on the 1911 forum. Anyone else remember this? Using a pistol for Long Range fire is less than ideal, but as pointed out earlier it is not the bullet drop so much as the short sight radius that makes precise aiming and trigger control so critical. The soldiers that I observed at Ft Rucker were making hits with the M9 as far out as 300 yards. I don't know if his shot was actually 165 yards or not but it is not far fetched. As for doubting his story because parts of his story have changed; I don't think that means anything. People seldom are able to recall stressful events in perfect chronology, in fact when they do it is a possible indication of deceit.

My take aways from this are.
1. Thank God a capable citizen was there and ready to take effective action.
2. What do I need to do to be effective?
3. Although rare, bad things do occasionally require attention from greater ranges than 7 yards.
4. practicing some occasional shooting at 50 and 100 yards will help me at 7.
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Old August 3, 2012, 09:08 AM   #45
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Any time you shoot at long range it's best to hold the front sight over the rear and put the target on top of the front sight so you can see what you are shooting at. Using a white dot or fiberoptic front sight you can gauge it by holding half the dot or all of it over the front blade and see where it hits then cheat it accordingly at other distances. Elmer Keith used a pieces of gold wire inlaid into the front sight for different distances. If you have serrations in the front sight you can fill them with a toothpick and paint. Trying to hold over the target is a losing battle.
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Old August 3, 2012, 12:56 PM   #46
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As a full-time LEO, here's what strikes me about this incident: Proof positive that the armed citizen can, and will, save LE lives. This type of thing has happened before, and will happen again. My uniform is not a Superman costume....in other words: Sometimes, the protectors need protecting. To all of those left-leaning, brass-wearing desk jockeys that Sarah Brady loves to quote as saying that "civilians" shouldn't own guns, here's a poke in the eye for you. Great story!
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Old August 3, 2012, 06:51 PM   #47
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The very rare LR shot is why I traded my S&W 442 for a 49. Even knowing how to 'stage' the trigger for the light letoff takes concentration that may not be there in a real situation. With the Bodyguard, I have a true single-action function.
Bob Munden has shown that J-frames can do 100yd shots; I plan to practice on the 100yd plates when I'm at a local outdoor range. I read and respect the earlier statements regarding 'full' or 'service' size guns for personal carry, but after years of consideration and carry, my J-frame best meets my personal situation.
Everyone, enjoy your choices and practice with them!
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Old August 3, 2012, 08:12 PM   #48
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So why might I doubt Vic Stacy's claims? Maybe cause the park residence areas are not even as large as he described. Looking at the online ground livel pics and comparing with the aerial pics, I would be shocked if his shot was 100 yards. That is still a good distance, but considerably shorter than claimed. Not only that, in order to make such an extreme distance shot would also be less likely because of the numbers of obstructions in the park such as the trailers, trees, vehicles, etc.

Here is a good pic of the RV park. Residence areas are all pretty much within 100 yards of one another at the extremes his shot would assume absolute extremes, or that he is the cartaker living in the back, but he isn't. Conner wasn't out by the main road. He wasn't at the little lake/tank. He wasn't hiding in the woods.

At lot of the probably shots could still have been 50-75 yards. My guess is that he stated "yards" when in reality it was "feet."
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Old August 3, 2012, 08:49 PM   #49
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http://www.brownwoodtx.com/news/loca...9bb2963f4.html

Can't tell from the photos but looks like the park is barely 100 yards from farthest end to farthest end and you could be right about it being feet instead of yards.

I also read two different accounts of bad shooters gun, one says it was a 30-30, another says it was an assault rifle. Knowing journalists I suppose every rifle is an assault rifle. At least Stacy's gun wasn't called an assault rifle.
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Old August 3, 2012, 09:05 PM   #50
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Even if it was only 165ft instead of yards, 165yds is still very doable with a 5" barreled 357 or a 45 auto if the shoot knows his gun, and has taken a few long shots before. However, It would still take some guts to engage a man with an AR15 at long range. I would sure want to have some cover available in case my pistol shots were not as effective as I had hoped.
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