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Old August 2, 2012, 08:46 AM   #26
NJgunowner
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Quote:
The FFLs transferred physical possession to me, but ownership was mine since 1972.
Eh, no. While you may have had an understanding with your cousin regarding the rifle, the cousin was the legal owner of the firearm until the actual transfer into your possession. You guys can argue this all day if you want, but you'd still be wrong.
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Old August 2, 2012, 10:09 AM   #27
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Attitude and effort, feed each other !!!

Quote:
if anything his attitude has gotten worse. He's had two years of nothing to do but talk with other inmates about better ways of "getting away with it".
I can understand your pain and relate to a simular story when I asked a friend of mine, if his son's attitude had changed since being released from prison. His reply was; not really as the son had stated, that being in prison, wasn't all that bad. .....

Quote:
the cousin was the legal owner of the firearm until the actual transfer into your possession.
That is correct !!!

Be Safe !!!
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Old August 2, 2012, 01:02 PM   #28
dogtown tom
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Quote:
Willie Sutton
Fact: You cannot give sole posession of a firearm, unsupervised, for an indefinate period of time, to another person in any state and not have it be considered a "Transfer", "Gift", "Sale", or whatever other words a statute may use to indicate a permanent change in the ownership of the firearm.
Uh......who said that?
According to the OP, the son lived with him for a short while....this is when the son left the firearms at the OP's son.




Quote:
Another opined:

"And it's possible for the firearms to have never been transferred in any manner if they were stored by the son with the intent to retrieve them later."


He better have stored them in a locked safe then, with nobody but himself holding the combination. Otherwise they are not stored... they are transferred.
Please cite the ATF regulation requiring a locked safe. Heck cite any ATF regulation that mentions "locked safe". Ain't there buddy.

Would you have us believe that gun club members who store their firearms at the gun range/club are actually transferring those firearms? More nonsense.




Quote:
You cannot give a firearm to someone to take home and keep....
OP never said his son gave him the firearms to take home.


Quote:
The "loaning" of a firearm for sporting purposes quote that you cited above is taken by the BATFE to be "under direct suopervision of the lender, and for the time period of the activity", meaning "same day, same place" for hunting.
No kidding Captain Obvious. I was responding to the post where Stressfire said "There is no such thing as loaning a firearm."





Quote:
"you don't understand ATF regulations or Federal law any better than you do common law"

Sadly... for you... it seems that I understand the ATF regs and state law regarding firearms transfers better than you do. I am also an FFL, a collector of NFA goodies, and I have not just jumped off the apple cart. When a firearm leaves my immediate control, either as an individual or as a licensee, it's a transfer.
Really?
Sorry bub, here's a few instances where that doesn't equate to a transfer.
Storing firearms at your gun club- not a transfer. How about shipping a firearm to yourself in care of a friend in another state for sporting purposes- not a transfer.
Yeah, you really know the regs I'll give you that.

Quote:
NJgunowner the cousin was the legal owner of the firearm until the actual transfer into your possession.
No sir. "Ownership" is a different concept than "possession".

As none of us are privy to how Aguila Blanca became the owner, we'll have to take his word that he is.

The belief that the person in possession magically becomes the owner is not codified in Federal law or ATF regulation.

example: You agree to buy a firearm from a forum member, you send him $$$$, he ships the firearm to your FFL for transfer. You are the owner, you just do not have possession until you complete a 4473/NICS. If you are denied by NICS the firearm does not become the property of the FFL.....he didn't buy the gun. It's not the property of the seller, he has his $$$ and completed his end of the deal. YOU are the owner.

The gun is your property but cannot be transferred until NICS gives you a proceed. If you choose to not appeal your NICS denial, you and the dealer must agree to a method for disposition of the firearm. Typically dealers will not allow a local sale due to the possibility of a straw sale, but may allow you to list it as a consignment, online auction or sale to the dealer.
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Old August 2, 2012, 02:16 PM   #29
youngunz4life
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throwing a thin dime in the pot here. Sir, I would never get in between your business with you and your son. Life is short though...no one says you have to do anything magical, but hating(not saying you hate him) and/or choosing to not get along etc might take more work then forgiving. I would hazard a guess that each of you has reasons for "having an attitude" with the other...

also, people can change and clean their act up, but I would agree it isn't your job to attempt to wait for this to happen.
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Old August 2, 2012, 03:22 PM   #30
Willie Sutton
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"According to the OP, the son lived with him for a short while....this is when the son left the firearms at the OP's son"

You mean when he abandoned them?





OK:

If you allow a firearm to be posessed by another, save for the *temporary loan or rental for sporting purposes* (same day, same venue loan), without direct supervision, you need to have complied with all of the laws of transfer under applicable state and federal law.

I don't see what is so hard to understand about this.


You can leave firearms in a storage facility and not "transfer" them if the storage is secured in such a way as to make the firearms inaccessable to others.

You cannot "hand them to your brother in law and leave them for a year" and claim that you have not transferred them.


Example of legitimate offsite storage:

I leave my legally owned NFA weapons in another state where my NFA Trust is set up. For security reasons, my weapons are stored in the facility of an FFL. That FFL and I met with the BATFE and the dictum that we were placed under was that the arms must be kept in a safe, to which I and the benficiary of the trust hold the combination, and that under no circumstances was the FFL who "stores the safe" to have access to the materials stored within. Note that this FFL is not a SOT.

"Storing" a firearm with a friend is seen by the BATFE as a transfer. It is seen that way by state law. "Ownership" in the "contracts" sense is a different subject than "transfer of possession". My error, which you have not dropped, and for which I now correct myself (although it seems obvious to most others) is that I incorrectly used the word "owned" rather than "transferred to" in an earlier post. Ownership may indeed be different that posession, as I'll offer with another analogy using an NFA weapon. Recently bought a Thompson. Shipped from the sellers dealer to my dealer. I am the owner. Tax stamp not yet in hand, the recipient of the shipment (SOT Dealer) cannot transfer it to me, although I am the owner. If he sells it to another person, I can press my point for conversion, and to this I stipulate. But the person to whom the Thompson has been "transferred" is that SOT and a second transfer is needed to bring it into my posession. If he handed it to me to "store"... well, we would all be off in the clink.


Transfer of Posession: BATFE and/or State Law.

Transfer of Ownership: Contracts 101.


Two different subjects.


Can we agree to this?



So.. scenario: Two pairs of litigants are in court, and they are there to deal with gun sales gone wrong. Let's play the game:


I explain to the Judge that My Brother handed me his .45, I agreed to buy it for $25.00 and agreed at the time that I will pay him next Friday. I took it it home. Note that the TRANSFER at that time has been conducted. The next day he gets arrested for beating his wife, and is placed under a restraining order. I know this and I recognize that he is now a prohibited person to whom I cannot transfer a firearm. Strangely enough, that same day I am laid off and now I am broke. Come Friday I cannot pay. He asks for his property back. I can't pay, and I can't give it back. I agree to all of the above to the Judge. What's the result?

This is a Breach of Contract. I cannot satisfy the contract financially, and legally I cannot return his property. Meanwhile... I am the transferee of a legally conducted firearms transfer *under federal and state firearms law* and as far as that part of the law is concerned, it's a fait accompli.

Likely outcome? Judge orders firearm transferred to a dealer, with proceeds to go to my brother. I am ordered to make good any difference between the contractual agreed price and what he realizes from the dealer, plus costs.

BANG goes the gavel.


Next case (this one):


The OP is the posessor of a pair of firearms that he posesses legally under state and federal law, it being that they were transferred to a person of age, not a felon, and not known to the transferring individual as being a prohibited person.

The claim is that the father now should give the firearms back, or receive compensation.

The burden of proof on the son revolves around his ability to prove to satisfaction of the court that there is a remaining financial liability still owned by the Father, to which the Father says "what contract? Show me."

Judge looks at the son and says "show us the contract". Son stares at toes and makes excuses. "Well, Dad gave it to me when I was ten" (not a Transfer under Law.... etc., etc. )


The dispute is not even in equipoise. Felon on one side, Dad on the other... Balance of Justice... swings over to the side of not meeting burden of proof... sorry kiddo. Dad wins.


BANG. Dismissed. Next case.



Maybe not... but...probably.



"No kidding Captain Obvious"

First rule of debate: Devolve to Ad Hominum and you lose your argument even if you are right. It turns out that we are essentially in agreement. Why lower yourself to name calling? It's not gentlemanly.




Willie


.

Last edited by Willie Sutton; August 2, 2012 at 03:32 PM.
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Old August 2, 2012, 05:03 PM   #31
Aguila Blanca
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There are rifles. If the son was living with the father, obviously they were residents of the same state. Many states allow face-to-face transfers with no paperwork.

IF there was a transfer.

The facts offered so far do not indicate whether, in fact, either rifle ever left the father's residence. If the father gave the .22 to his son when sonny was "a child," the child could not have legally owned a firearm. So it was, at that time, the father's rifle and there was an "understanding" between father and son. We don't know if there was ever a formalized transfer once the child became adult enough to own a firearm.

The same may apply to the other, except that the mother was the donor. If her gift occurred when the son was a child, and when the parents were still married, the other rifle may also never have left the father's residence.
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Old August 2, 2012, 05:30 PM   #32
dogtown tom
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Quote:
Willie Sutton
Quote:
"According to the OP, the son lived with him for a short while....this is when the son left the firearms at the OP's son"
You mean when he abandoned them?
Abandoned?
Jumping to conclusions? if the OP believes his son abandon the firearms he should immediately comply with his state law regarding abandon property.

And surely one does not abandon the property or possession of someone else, correct?

Every state has laws regarding "abandoned property".......Texas sure as heck does, and simply leaving the firearms at someones elses house does not meet the legal requirements of "abandonment". Most states that have abandon property laws also have requirements for the person possessing to serve legal notice before taking ownership. usually there must be a time period as well as legal notoce served to the original owner.


Quote:
If you allow a firearm to be posessed by another, save for the *temporary loan or rental for sporting purposes* (same day, same venue loan), without direct supervision, you need to have complied with all of the laws of transfer under applicable state and federal law.

I don't see what is so hard to understand about this.
You sidestepped addressing these two situations, so I'll repeat:

-Storing firearms at your gun club- not a transfer.
-How about shipping a firearm to yourself in care of a friend in another state for sporting purposes- not a transfer.

In neither case are the firearms under your "direct supervision" (which you believe is necessary)..........do you honestly believe that you transfer possession to the owner of your gun club or to your friend in another state?

Quote:
You can leave firearms in a storage facility and not "transfer" them if the storage is secured in such a way as to make the firearms inaccessable to others.
Citation please.


Quote:
The OP is the posessor of a pair of firearms that he posesses legally under state and federal law, it being that they were transferred to a person of age, not a felon, and not known to the transferring individual as being a prohibited person. The claim is that the father now should give the firearms back, or receive compensation.

The burden of proof on the son revolves around his ability to prove to satisfaction of the court that there is a remaining financial liability still owned by the Father, to which the Father says "what contract? Show me."
See this is where I believe you continue to ignore a couple of details.
1. Simply being stored at some ones house is not necessarily a transfer under Federal law.
2. A person storing ones own possessions, including firearms, does not transfer or pass on title or ownership to the homeowner.
3. The OP clearly considers the firearms to be the property of his son, hence his question.


Quote:
Judge looks at the son and says "show us the contract". Son stares at toes and makes excuses. "Well, Dad gave it to me when I was ten" (not a Transfer under Law.... etc., etc. )


The dispute is not even in equipoise. Felon on one side, Dad on the other... Balance of Justice... swings over to the side of not meeting burden of proof... sorry kiddo. Dad wins.
Being that the father (the OP) posted that the firearms belong to his son....kinda makes this courtroom drama moot.
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Old August 2, 2012, 11:13 PM   #33
Willie Sutton
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-Storing firearms at your gun club- not a transfer.

-How about shipping a firearm to yourself in care of a friend in another state for sporting purposes- not a transfer.




Storing firearms where others can access them is not only illegal, it's stupid. I can't comment on the actual practice of "storing arms at a gun club" in a common safe, because I have never seen it. To follow If you have seen it, it does not make it legal. In our club, we have club-owned firearms that are stored on site, in a safe (the firearms are owned by the corporation for youth education and competition), but theu are not comingled with privately owned arms. Individuals also own private safes that are stored in the facility as well, but accesss is only to the individual. "Common Access" is not anything that is addressed as a legal use in any code I have ever read. The ones who issue the youth rifles are officers of the corporation that owns them. Nobody else has the combination. I can see it now: "Oh yea, officer... we all sort of toss our guns into that one big box, and when we come to shoot we just sort of open it up, and sort out what is ours, and we don't really toutch the others..." That's not going to pass muster. If you get away with it, it's because nobody has made a case out of it. I "get" that is might be done. That does not make it legal.

Next:

Sending firearms by common carrier is legal. It is legal to send them to YOURSELF for legitimate sporting purposes. You are supposed to have the package held in the bond room of the common carrier until you PERSONALLY pick it up. You cannot send it to your friend for him to just hang onto until you show up "box opened and sitting on his gun rack".

There is NO difference between "sending a firearm to yourself care of a friend" and "illegally sending a rifle to a third party across state lines", as the chain of posession includes an illegal recipient under federal law. The federal statutes only deal with the consignment of a firearm to a common carrier, and an individual sending a firearm to HIMSELF. Not via a third party who is not a licensee.


Really... you're an FFL? Your BATFE guys must be pretty slack at the education part of their job. In my neck of the woods a guy with those answers would be in "remedial training".



Willie


.
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Old August 2, 2012, 11:14 PM   #34
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He is a felon and cannot possess firearms, meaning he cannot even hold one in his hands to admire it, no matter how briefly. Giving the firearms to his controllable mother is aiding and abetting multiple counts of delivering a firearm to a felon. You don't want to do that.

If the whining gets to "I just want to sell them for the money", send $100 and tell him "I sold them, got $50 each, here you are".

He has NO say in what happens to the firearms, none whatsoever. Give him any control over the location or disposition of them and he has constructive possession of a firearm even if he doesn't touch them.

Tough titty, said the little kitty.
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Old August 3, 2012, 12:05 AM   #35
Justice06RR
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Firearm Registration

Let me pose a question here:

Do states with Firearm Registration Laws indicate who the Legal Owner of a firearm is when that firearm is registered?

My state thankfully does not have firearm registration so we have no need for FOID or FID cards. Which is why I ask, in a state where there is a firearm registration (maybe CA or NJ), wouldn't a firearm be legally registered -therefore owned- by a particular person even if he does not currently possess it?

This is where I side on the statement that possession does NOT equal ownership. Possession may equal Transfer (temporary if thats whats legally acceptable), but until an agreement or Bill of Sale has been filled out, doesn't the owner remain the owner?

In the OP's case, the father has Possession of the firearms that has been Transferred to him, but until until it is legally released to him should still be the property of his son?

Kinda like lending your car (which is titled to you) to a family member. Even if they have possesion of the vehicle, say because the owner has had his license revoked, the vehicle is still legally yours because it says so on the vehicle title.

Last edited by Justice06RR; August 3, 2012 at 12:11 AM.
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Old August 3, 2012, 12:16 AM   #36
dogtown tom
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Quote:
Willie Sutton
Quote:
-Storing firearms at your gun club- not a transfer.

-How about shipping a firearm to yourself in care of a friend in another state for sporting purposes- not a transfer.

Storing firearms where others can access them is not only illegal....
Again, citation from federal law please. (and we ain't talking 'bout kindergartners either)



Quote:
Sending firearms by common carrier is legal. It is legal to send them to YOURSELF for legitimate sporting purposes. You are supposed to have the package held in the bond room of the common carrier until you PERSONALLY pick it up. You cannot send it to your friend for him to just hang onto until you show up "box opened and sitting on his gun rack".
Once again, you're inventing laws or regulation that are your own and not found in any Federal law nor ATF regulation.

When shipping your own firearms addressed to yourself in another state:
- No ATF regulation requires shipping via common carrier. It is perfectly legal to ship rifles and shotguns via USPS (and USPS is NOT a common carrier). Handguns are not mailable except by licensed dealers and manufacturers.
- No ATF regulation requires that the shipment be for a "sporting purpose"....only a LAWFUL purpose.
- No ATF regulation requires having the package held in a "bond room" of a common carrier (or at the local post office if you mailed it). You can clearly ship or mail directly to a friend or hunting lodge or the motel where you'll be staying.
- No ATF regulation prohibits shipping to ANY ADDRESS you choose when the package is addressed to yourself. You most certainly CAN ship it to your friends address for him to "hang onto"...but it may only be opened by you, the addressee.

So much for the idea that a transfer always occurs or that the firearm must always be under your "direct supervision".

Here it is straight from ATF:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unli...rms-additional
Quote:
Q: May a nonlicensee ship firearms interstate for his or her use in hunting or other lawful activity?
Yes. A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner. Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm.
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Old August 3, 2012, 06:57 AM   #37
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It's livelier and livelier....

Let me answer a couple of points that were brought up, just so that everyone knows all of the facts that may apply. This is a Tolstoy-length novel, so grab a pot of coffee and get ready!

Rifle #1 (an M-1 Carbine) was a gift from me to his mother while we were still married. About 8 years later, the marriage fell apart and she moved out, taking her guns with her. She, in short order, decided she wanted no part of any activity her and I formerly shared, and decided to give her rifle to our son - who was 15 at the time.

Rifle #2 (Ruger 10-22) was a gift from me to my son when he was about 10 years old. That gun stayed with me.

Eventually, when he turn 18 and moved out on his own, his guns were given to him, and he kept them at his own home. He married, had a home of his own, had a child, and for about 2 1/2 years seemed like a responsible young man. He had a good job on a survey crew for about a year and a half, and even improved his situation by taking a similar but better paying job with another company. After about 8 months of that, one day - without warning - he went all "Office Space" and decided, like the main character of the movie, that "I'm just not gonna go". "Oh, did you quit?" "No, I'm just not gonna go anymore". SERIOUSLY!!!!!!!

Within six months, his apartment complex evicted him and his wife. She and the child went to live with her mother - he rented a room in someone's basement. Not having a place to secure his guns, we put them in my safe. He also had another gun by that time that he had purchased for himself - a Mossberg 500. That was January of 2008. Not sure if this is pertinent or not, but I am the only person alive(that I know of) with the combination to this safe, as the manufacturer has long been out of business.
He then floated about, moving from place to place (some as far away as Hawaii) for about the next 8 months and when he finally ran out of places to go - I let him come to stay with me temporarily until he could get his life back on track. He would get a job, get a cheap car as soon as possible to GET to the job, and get back out on his own again as soon as he had enough cash. I figured 4 to 6 months, 8 months tops.
He then got a job, and 2 months later moved to a better paying job. All seemed well. He sold the Mossberg 500 for cash. Well after 2 weeks, the new job announced they were going out of business, so on to a 3rd job. Then another, then another. At the end of 13 months (!!!!!!), he was now on his 7th job! He at least bought a car for himself during this time, but was otherwise no closer to moving out on his own.

One day a letter arrived from the county courthouse with my name on it (it didn't specify "Jr."), so I opened it. I was amazed to find that I was supposed to report to the local Alcohol Abuse Remediation program the following week as result of court order pursuant to my recent D.U.I. conviction. WHAT!?
I got on the court's website (in Virginia you can look up case information) and sure enough - there it was, just 7 weeks prior he was arrested for DUI, and subsequently convicted a month later. The arrest occurred, coincidentally, on the second day of his CDL course! Pretty sure THAT'S not a great combination.

That's when I realized he wasn't making any forward progress, but rather going backwards. I'd given him enough time to get his life together but he was just going back to old ways or worse, so I made him move out. He found a new place to stay and returned to the house to get his stuff, but left the guns. I'm not complaining about that, mind you - as I'm not a big fan of mixing firearms and alcohol abuse. In the 2 months after leaving my residence, he was subsequently arrested again for DUI, Driving on a suspended license (3 times!!!!!!!), possession of marijuana, and the finale: one night while in a car drunk with 2 drunk girls, he kicks them out of the car in the middle of the countryside and takes their car. The police cuffed him, took him away, and charged him with car-jacking. (Felony...BIG felony!) This was November, 2009. They held him without bond and by May of 2010 he plea-bargained down to Felony Unauthorized Use of a Vehicle. All the other charges went to a Nolle Prosequi status, that is - the Prosecutor agrees not to pursue at this time, but may pursue at a later time if desired. He gets a 5 year jail sentence, with all but 6 months suspended, and license suspended until March 2013. They counted time served and he was out a week later. He went to live with his Mom in Pennsylvania and got in more trouble, another felony unauthorized use of a vehicle, well as a felony charge in Maryland. (Gosh, I'm so proud! )

This is a ridiculously long story and to spare you all any more details I'll truncate it: long story short - he has spent 2 years of the last 2 1/2 behind bars and since January 2008 has not laid eyes on these two rifles. I'd be surprised if even a fingerprint of his remains on them. Now that he's out of jail, all of a sudden he's pressing his mother to get me to give them to her and pressing his sister to get me to give his mother a handgun that used to belong to her, but was given to my daughter and now in my safe for storage until she can establish residency and a gun-permit for it in New York state, where she and her husband recently moved. Maybe I'm paranoid, but sumthin' don't smell right.

Anyhoo, sorry for the long-winded chronology of events. Welcome to a glimpse of my life. Sadly, this is just a sliver of it. Friends keep telling me I should write a book about it, and I them them I'd have to sell it in the Fiction section, 'cause nobody will ever believe this mess! Can you say "dis-funtional"?

One point of caution: be careful when you name your son "Jr." Most of time it works out fine, but occasionally one turns out like mine. I love my son, and I hope someday he grows up. Right now, I've done all I can for him. It's on him now. As far as the "Jr." goes, I live in a state that has Instant-check, and should be able to walk out the door with a gun purchase the same day. Not anymore - it's a minimum 3 day wait now. I called the Virginia State Police Firearms Transaction Center about the delays, and their reply:
"There's someone with your name who has a felony conviction". It then goes into a hold until they can get someone to investigate it further to determine I'm not the felon. Lucky me.

Thanks for bearing with me, and for the support. You guys are great.
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Last edited by Tom Servo; August 3, 2012 at 07:26 AM. Reason: Removed reference to "sh#@-er"
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Old August 3, 2012, 08:30 AM   #38
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie Sutton
Storing firearms where others can access them is not only illegal, it's stupid.
It is only stupid under some circumstances, and it is only illegal where there is a law that says it is not legal.

Your problem is that you are making blanket statements where blanket statements don't work. For example:

I am married. My wife and I are senior citizens. Her children and our grandchildren all live many thousands of miles away ... we visit them, they don't visit us. I have guns in the house. Some are not always locked up. The only law pertaining to locking up guns in my state says they must be locked up if there are children under the age of 16 in the house. My wife does not like guns but she is not a prohibited person. Therefore, there is nothing in state or Federal law requiring that my firearms, even my handguns, be kept under lock and key. The fact that my wife may also have access to any guns that are not locked up is not illegal, and does not constitute either possession or ownership of those firearms by my wife.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie Sutton
"Common Access" is not anything that is addressed as a legal use in any code I have ever read.
If it isn't against a written law, it isn't illegal. The fact you have not seen a law making "common access" legal does not make it illegal. Lawmakers in general do not write laws to tell us what we can do, they write laws to tell us what we canNOT do. If common access is not addressed, then common access is not illegal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie Sutton
Sending firearms by common carrier is legal. It is legal to send them to YOURSELF for legitimate sporting purposes. You are supposed to have the package held in the bond room of the common carrier until you PERSONALLY pick it up. You cannot send it to your friend for him to just hang onto until you show up "box opened and sitting on his gun rack".
Again, you need to review the law. There is nothing requiring a firearm shipped to yourself to be held by the carrier (in a "bond room") until you pick it up. The BATFE FAQ specifically addresses the possibility that a firearm may be delivered when you are not present. (See post above by dogtown tom.) A friend may accept the package, but may not OPEN the package. That's the only requirement. YOU must do the shipping to yourself by yourself, and YOU must open the package. Nada mas.

Last edited by Aguila Blanca; August 3, 2012 at 08:43 AM.
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Old August 3, 2012, 11:01 AM   #39
dogtown tom
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You are in our prayers....

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fxdrider ....Thanks for bearing with me, and for the support. You guys are great.
Don't lose your faith. At some point I would hope that your son finally gets it.
Sometimes the best love and advice you can give is tough love.
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Old August 3, 2012, 09:48 PM   #40
youngunz4life
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maybe you can care for the firearms for your grandson when he is give or take your son's age(that should give you some shootin time)
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Old August 4, 2012, 08:53 AM   #41
Rifleman1776
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Legal issue. Get a lawyer.
He may not have the right to possess them but you don't have ownership rights and may not be legally able to keep them.
That's called a conundrum. More commonly known as a rock and a hard place.
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Old August 5, 2012, 12:24 PM   #42
johnbt
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"If YOU posess the guns, they were TRANSFERRED to you, and YOU are the owner." "

Nonsense. Read what the ATF says about loaning guns.

John
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Old August 5, 2012, 01:21 PM   #43
MagicAnimal
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Whatever happend to "possession is nine tenths" ? Another urban myth?
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Old August 5, 2012, 01:49 PM   #44
Willie Sutton
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Nonsense. Read what the ATF says about loaning guns.


Absolutely IS allowed for legal sporting purposes, as is a firearms rental.

Caveat: This is intrepreted by the BATFE as a loan or rental and return to owner "same day, same place", and "might" not be a legal problem from any practical standpoint for a guy checking into a guide service and renting a shotgun for a week of dove hunting. Generally the guide services handle the guns anyway... so it's a moot point for the most part. I can tell you that at Gunsite, a pistol rental is checked out in the AM and is returned to the armory in the PM.

It is not a statute to rely on for leaving it with a friend for a (day, week, month, year, or "until I get out of jail") without ensuring that you are not TRANSFERRING IT to a prohibited person, or in violation of any other Federal or State law.


We can argue this until the cows come home, but there IS a point at which it's no longer clear that the person handing over the gun is really "loaning" it. I've "lent" a Steyr SSG for the last 20 years to an uncle, and I can have it back anytime I ask for it, but I am darned sure that the BATFE would consider it a transfer....



Willie


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Last edited by Willie Sutton; August 5, 2012 at 01:59 PM.
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Old August 5, 2012, 04:10 PM   #45
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In this situation the federal laws on lending are not an issue. The transferr took place in the same state between two adults. The son owned the guns as an adult, so issues of child transferr also do not apply. Within the state of VA I can certainly lend a person a gun without the assumption that they now own it. Things are a little trickier across state lines as the transferr would have to go through a FFL, but I would still think that a trasferr of possesion can take place without a transferr of ownership. When I sent my Glock in for repair, possesion was transferred to Glock but ownership certainly was not. I can see loaning my brother-in law a gun, he lives in another state, although in that case transferrs both ways would have to go through a FFL.

The OP cannot send the guns back to his son as his son can not own them. I think the question of whether or not a felon can direct were the weapons are sent would require the input of a lawyer.

One question is what happens in a normal case? A person is convicted of a felony and owns guns. Do the police just seize them and keep them, is a relative allow to take possesion, etc.?
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Old August 5, 2012, 04:52 PM   #46
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If leaving a gun overnight with someone is not a 'transfer', then why does a Gunsmith have to log the 'acquisition' in, and the 'disposition' out, if he keeps a gun overnight?

Just wondering...
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Old August 5, 2012, 05:42 PM   #47
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Quote:
why does a Gunsmith have to log the 'acquisition' in, and the 'disposition' out, if he keeps a gun overnight?
'Cause he's doing it as a business. Same reason a gun dealer has to have a FFL but you don't need one to sell a gun you no longer want in a F2F transaction.
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Old August 5, 2012, 05:51 PM   #48
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Quote:
Salmoneye If leaving a gun overnight with someone is not a 'transfer', then why does a Gunsmith have to log the 'acquisition' in, and the 'disposition' out, if he keeps a gun overnight?
Why? Because Federal law requires it.

You can leave it with him at 8am to be repaired, go to work, come back at 6pm and he can hand you the firearm.......no 4473/NICS required.

This has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the transfer of firearms between nonlicensees.
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Old August 5, 2012, 05:57 PM   #49
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"Within the state of VA I can certainly lend a person a gun without the assumption that they now own it."

Once again, I think we have discussed the difference between "ownership" which deals with the legality of contracts, IE: "money exchanged" and "posession", which is the question regarding state and federal laws regarding the "exchange of a firearm between one party and another".


Let's stick to the second question for the following:


Hypothetical: I am going to "loan" you a firearm. For how long can we persuade a cop or DA that it was an actual loan and that I did not transfer it to you?


To shoot a cylinder of six at a target? Sure. Except maybe in New York. Or maybe elsewhere too.

To hunt with for the day? Hmmm.. Feds say OK. State law dictate also. In NJ you would go to jail for this *for certain*. All the cop would need to read is "No person may posess a firearm without <fill in the blanks>". It's a transfer. Elsewhere? Legal Mileage may vary. In Texas? They could probably care less.


To hunt with for the week? Hmm... do you allow your buddy to take it home with him? Getting grey here... refer to state law...


To take to Montana for the big hunt? Getting iffy...


To take home and keep for a year? Uhh... no.



Guys: At some time it's no longer a loan, it's a transfer. I cannot believe that people are so obtuse as to fail to get this. In some states a Transfer has no real formal procedure, just "make sure he's from the same state, is of age, and is not known to you to be a prohibited person". In other states it's a BIG DEAL involving permits, paperwork, and mandatory reports. This is where communications between us here has broken down. In many states we don't even think about it... still does not make it untrue. Virginia? Probably at the far right of the "gun transfer hassle factor scale". Transfers are no biggie, in fact folks there don't even likely recognize that one has occured. But loan a gun overnight in California? Forget it.





"I swear it's not mine, officer... I was just holding it for a friend"...



Willie


.

Last edited by Willie Sutton; August 5, 2012 at 06:10 PM.
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Old August 5, 2012, 06:06 PM   #50
youngunz4life
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I think some people do loan and/or allow a family member to store(if that is the correct word)a firearm(s) while they serve overseas in the military or some years as active duty military. I guess whatever the legality or commonplace on such a thing, technically the same could be done for "johnny" when he does a stint at the pen as long as his stint wasn't for a felony conviction(s) of course but rather for misdemeanors.

I am just saying sometimes citizens have to travel and/or live somewhere where weapons aren't allowed by law(washington DC in college, the barracks as a younger enlisted soldier on base, the chain gang, etc
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