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Old August 23, 2012, 03:23 PM   #101
Mike Irwin
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As I said previously, this thread will not become a clip v magazine discussion. That is a different thread.
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Old August 23, 2012, 03:25 PM   #102
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Sorry, wasn't trying to make a point, just a passing comment. It doesn't make much difference to me either way.
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Old August 24, 2012, 12:34 AM   #103
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I might as well post my view on the 45 colt vs 45 long colt controversy:

My first revolver (don't ask me why) was actually a S&W 460 VXR. I had no intentions of shooting 454 casull, because, whats the benefit? I figured I would start with 45 colt, get used to the revolver, and then shoot 460s later.

I went to wal mart to look for 45 colt ammo one day. The attendant for the ammo / hunting section asked "what do you need" I reply "45 colt" he says "yes sir" and hands me a box of 45 acp. I say "no no 45 colt for a revolver" (although many many revolvers were made to fire 45 acp) he says "ohhh, you mean 45 LONG colt". He presumably was confused for 2 possible reasons, one, its 45 acp, as in Automatic Colt Pistol or perhaps Colt made so many 1911s, that you would call the round a 45 colt because they are so intertwined. Also, 45 long colt because its longer than 45 acp (who knows what people are thinking). I'm not saying that makes sense, but you can never assume what another man is actually thinking at any given time.

My opinion on this matter, and on clips vs magazines is the old saying "When in Rome, do as the Romans do". Odds are, even among a gun crowd, you could be out numbered by the long colt guys or the people who say they have a glock pistol clip. When I'm at a gun show, and walking around, I will ask for say a luger or colt clip, but when I sell, my item is a magazine. You aren't going to change what is popularly spoke in regards to these topics, and truthfully, you could confuse someone. Its just not worth it. If someone ASKS you, its different. When you're in the retail setting, you have to speak THEIR language to better accomplish YOUR goals.

And just because you (anyone) know there wasn't really a 45 short colt, and you know that the 1911 uses a magazine and the garand uses a clip, it really doesn't mean you know anything. When someone gets on a soap box about those subjects, I'm not impressed with their knowledge. Maybe you can impress non-gun people with such talk, but there are many more important things to know and understand.
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Old August 24, 2012, 12:48 AM   #104
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I'm an old goat and thought I had seen it all but......people actually get angry about something like this?

My blood pressure was 120/70 today and there's a darned good reason for it. I blow off things like this and don't worry about it.

There is a .45 LONG Colt because folks like me want to identify it from other cartridges like the .45ACP.

It's like the "30 ought 6" but that's another story.

Flash
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Old August 24, 2012, 03:16 AM   #105
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Win 73 - I own ten .45 Colts. Some are marked "45 Colt" and some are marked "45LC" - even the same manufacturer (Uberti) marks them differently, depending on the model. Unless the Wal-Mart clerk is a CAS shooter, I wouldn't fault him one bit for not knowing the difference. My understanding of the origin of "Long Colt" is a bit different than your own - that when the .45 Schofield was proposed as a serious competitor to the .45 Colt for use by the Army, and was (officially or otherwise) adopted by some units, "long" was added to minimize confusion since the Schofield cartridges, being shorter, can be fired in Single Action Armys, but .45 Colts are too long for the Schofield cylinders. Similarly, I suppose, though I've never read of anyone actually screwing up on this one, feeding Schofields into an 1873 Winchester is certain to cause problems.
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Old August 24, 2012, 04:04 AM   #106
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It's funny what people will beat you up over. Long Colt or just Colt. Magazine vs clip. I think the worst beating I ever took was over "automatic." When I was a kid/youngster I never heard the term "semi-automatic." It was an "automatic." If you were talking about a machine gun it was a "full automatic." A 1911 was either a "45 Automatic" or an "Army Colt." A Browning A-5 was a "Browning Automatic." Nowbody ever questioned what you meant. I don't care if Browning made a dozen other semi, or full automatic firearms, a "Browning Automatic" was an A-5 Shotgun. I knew it was a semi-automatic only because Jack O'Conner said it was in Outdoor Life. (And I believe he just pointed out that "technically" it was a semi-auto.) But you can bet I wasn't going to try to tell my Grandfather that.

Oppps. That might start another debate.
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Old August 24, 2012, 07:55 AM   #107
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The first Colt Government Models said "Colt Automatic" over ".45 Caliber." It didn't say semi-automatic and it didn't say "1911." The ones they made for the government were 1911s, then 1911A1s. The ones they made for civilian sale were just "Government Models." ACP stands for Automatic Colt Pistol.

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Old August 24, 2012, 02:29 PM   #108
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Quote:
My understanding of the origin of "Long Colt" is a bit different than your own - that when the .45 Schofield was proposed as a serious competitor to the .45 Colt for use by the Army, and was (officially or otherwise) adopted by some units, "long" was added to minimize confusion since the Schofield cartridges, being shorter, can be fired in Single Action Armys, but .45 Colts are too long for the Schofield cylinders. Similarly, I suppose, though I've never read of anyone actually screwing up on this one, feeding Schofields into an 1873 Winchester is certain to cause problems.
That is my understanding. In my post I was saying perhaps what the wal mart guy was thinking, not what I know about the subject.

2000 posts!!!!!!!
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Old August 24, 2012, 06:07 PM   #109
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re 2K posts

Congrats - I will never catch up with that!
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Old August 24, 2012, 06:46 PM   #110
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30,674....

Yawn......
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Old August 24, 2012, 07:43 PM   #111
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Mike

I guess I have a chance since I am 15x younger than you!

Jim
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Old August 24, 2012, 10:49 PM   #112
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Holy cow. Well, I guess if you're married your wife doesn't have to worry about where you are...

That's something like 7 a day, 365 for 12 years.
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Old August 24, 2012, 11:00 PM   #113
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I got rid of her years ago. She was interfering with my posting time.
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Old August 24, 2012, 11:03 PM   #114
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That's something like 7 a day, 365 for 12 years.
mike-irwin (noun) - a person who is completely dedicated to something for great lengths of time. The Japanese soldier Hiroo Onoda who didn't surrender until 1974 was a real mike-irwin.
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Old August 24, 2012, 11:08 PM   #115
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Quote:
My understanding of the origin of "Long Colt" is a bit different than your own - that when the .45 Schofield was proposed as a serious competitor to the .45 Colt for use by the Army, and was (officially or otherwise) adopted by some units, "long" was added to minimize confusion since the Schofield cartridges, being shorter, can be fired in Single Action Armys, but .45 Colts are too long for the Schofield cylinders.
The problem with that is that the .45 Schofield was commonly called one of several things, but it was never called the .45 Colt or .45 Short Colt. It doesn't make sense that anyone would have to come up with a way to avoid confusing two cartridges with different names.

Elmer Keith (and other sources) explain that in addition to the .45 Colt and the .45 Schofield, there was a third round, distinct from either of the other two. It was headstamped .45 Colt and apparently sold in boxes with similar markings.

It makes a LOT of sense that that people would distinguish between the two identically marked rounds by asking for the long one or the short one.

The link below contains more information.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/ta...short_colt.htm
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Old August 24, 2012, 11:12 PM   #116
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Quote:
The problem with that is that the .45 Schofield was commonly called one of several things, but it was never called the .45 Colt or .45 Short Colt. It doesn't make sense that anyone would have to come up with a way to avoid confusing two cartridges with different names.
Do you think it could be that back in those days, people called it "45 long" or "45 short" not even knowing one was made for Colts and one for S&W? In other words, the full "45 long colt" came later?

Good point about that 45 S&W scholfield though, it does not go the opposite way.
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Old August 24, 2012, 11:18 PM   #117
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I think they called the short .45 Colts, .45 Short Colt, and the long .45 Colts, .45 Long Colt.

I've never seen any reliable or period source that confirms the .45 Schofield was ever called .45 Colt with any adjective involved.
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Old August 24, 2012, 11:22 PM   #118
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I've never seen any reliable or period source that confirms the .45 Schofield was ever called .45 Colt with any adjective involved.
I don't know if you misunderstood my question: I was trying to say what if those cals were known as "45 short" and "45 long" ONLY and no one really cared one was S&W and one Colt. In other words, was it was popular nickname at the time for the cartridges? Then perhaps, since Colt developed the 45 colt, people added "Colt" to 45 long? I'm not say that is what happened, but we also have no idea what the cals were popularly referred to as in 1875 for example.

Quote:
I think they called the short .45 Colts, .45 Short Colt, and the long .45 Colts, .45 Long Colt.
Well we got one box of short 45 Colts left, we sold out of 45 short Colt. For long 45 Colts we are all out, and 45 long Colt doesn't exist!
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Old August 24, 2012, 11:27 PM   #119
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I was trying to say what if those cals were known as "45 short" and "45 long" ONLY and no one really cared one was S&W and one Colt.
There were three different cartridges of differing lengths, so simply using short and long wouldn't be sufficient to distinguish them all.

I think they called them by what they were marked with the addition of any adjectives required to distinguish between different cartridges with similar markings.

As an example, nobody, these days, gets confused and calls the .38Special the .357Magnum Short, or the .38S&W the .38 Special Short. They call them what they're marked and then add on whatever adjectives they need to explain completely what they want.
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Old August 24, 2012, 11:28 PM   #120
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What did they call the cartridge for the Colt 1909 model .45 revolver? Wasn't it unique even though the .45 Colt fits and fires in it?
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Old August 25, 2012, 06:29 AM   #121
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It probably was but it probably wasn't available down at the corner hardware store. My (current) impression was the the boxes were more often than not marked with the gun they were supposed to be fired in rather than some technically correct designation. When did it become common, for instance, to add a metric length to a cartridge designation? That is, in this country. It was apparently the standard way of describing European made rifle ammunition at least 80 years ago, at least for German made ammunition (but not pistol ammunition). English made ammunition was not so described and the few instances where the case length was included, it was in inches.

Remember again that the "official" name of a cartridge, if there is such a thing (the subject of this thread), may not even be on the cartridge. I've already mentioned ".38 LONG" on some cartridges I have. I am led to believe the full name is ".38 Long Colt."

A quick look through one of my reference books suggests strongly that ammunition was packaged in boxes marked with the specific firearm it was intended for, even to include the model number, so confusion should have been minimal. Even so, there were a fair number of cartridges that allowed one-way interchangeability, just in case the correct one wasn't on hand.

Actually, we can't really be sure what most people really did call things 130 years ago very often. Even 50 years ago some terminology in firearms that has mostly gone out of common use.
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Old August 25, 2012, 10:55 AM   #122
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JohnKSa - in your photo, are those rounds reloads, or originals? If original (or in any event), what do you use to preserve the lead in old ammo from deteriorating over time. I'd think beeswax but am always interested in other ideas.
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Old August 25, 2012, 01:43 PM   #123
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It's not my photo, I didn't mean to claim credit for it.

It's a link to an article by Jim Taylor. I don't know how the lead was preserved, but I'll bet you're on the right track--coating it with some sort of wax would probably do the trick.
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Old August 26, 2012, 06:44 PM   #124
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"The problem with that is that the .45 Schofield was commonly called one of several things, but it was never called the .45 Colt or .45 Short Colt."

Some commercial makers of the .45 Government (.45 Schofield) used the .46 Colt head bunter, so they are marked ".45 Colt". The Army didn't get confused since after 1874 they never issued .45 Colt at all, only .45 Government.

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Old August 26, 2012, 09:01 PM   #125
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Quote:
Some commercial makers of the .45 Government (.45 Schofield) used the .46 Colt head bunter, so they are marked ".45 Colt".
I believe that you are talking about the short Colt cartridges currently under discussion, not the .45 Schofield/S&W rounds. The short Colt cartridges were similar in case length to the Schofield rounds but with noticeably different rim dimensions and were marked .45 Colt.

The Schofield rounds were marked .45 S&W or .45 Govt, but not .45 Colt.

If you look at the pictures in the opening post of the linked thread you can see what I'm talking about.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=497213

The two cartridges on the left are the .45 Schofield/.45 S&W/.45 Govt cartridges and even in the pictures is easy to see that the rim dimensions are significantly different from the 3 cartridges on the right which are the .45 Colt in short and long varieties.
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