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Old August 4, 2012, 04:06 PM   #76
BlueTrain
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The .45 Mauser is a new one on me. What was that chambered in?

I also note that the .44 Colt and the .44 Remington, which look suspiciously similiar, have almost no rim or flange, as the British used to say, at all.

I have also noted that a few cartridges, all for rifles that I've noticed, have a distinct bevel, resulting in a base that is not exactly flat but tapers slightly to a thinner rim. It isn't much but very noticeable. Of all the cartridges I just rummaged through, however, only the 7.64x54r is like that. I wonder why?
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Old August 4, 2012, 05:57 PM   #77
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The .45 Mauser, from what I can find, was also known as the 11mm Mauser, as was used in at least one Mauser "zig-zag" revovler.

As to the Colt, and Remington, cartridges, they didn't need a rim for extraction, as they were rod ejectors. This prevented their use in S&W revovlers.

Beveled rims helped cam the cartridge as sliding (falling) breech blocks were closed on the rounds. Prevented the breech block from catching on the rim.

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Old August 4, 2012, 05:58 PM   #78
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As to battery cup primers, I believe I have one .450 Revolver round so made, I'll check.

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Old August 4, 2012, 06:10 PM   #79
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The bevel base was also known as the Mauser A Base. It was used primarily in European cartridges.
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Old August 4, 2012, 06:32 PM   #80
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O.K. Here's what I found for the .450:

My specimen is made by Eley, a commercial mfg. White and Munhall list the .450 Revovler service ammunition as the Mk.I having an iron base, the Mk. II as having a brass base.

The same source quotes a box label for the .45 Mauser as "For .45 Mauser Pistol"



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Old August 4, 2012, 08:10 PM   #81
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I know nothing

About the history of the 45colt or the 45 long colt. I call it a long colt so I don't confuse it with my 45acp. I load my 45 long colts bullets into my colt 45 one at a time. I load my 45 acp eight at a time throught the use of a clip or magazine.
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Old August 5, 2012, 04:17 AM   #82
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clip vs magazine

Ever since I stopped wearing my birthday suit, I was told that 'clip' referred to a device open on both ends while 'magazine' referred to devices closed on one end. Thus, you can't load a M1911 with a 'clip'. Is there anymore to say on this...?
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Old August 5, 2012, 07:11 AM   #83
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Ok we just had a very long thread on clip v magazine. Lets not take this thread off topic.
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Old August 5, 2012, 06:01 PM   #84
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Quote:
My specimen is made by Eley, a commercial mfg. White and Munhall list the .450 Revovler service ammunition as the Mk.I having an iron base, the Mk. II as having a brass base.
Iron base? Do you have a means of posting a photo of that critter? Man, that sounds interesting, is it a brass body (sleeve) pressed over the iron base?
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Old August 5, 2012, 06:41 PM   #85
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Popular terminology vs "Official" or factory designation. The "Official" designation for the round we call the 30-40 Krag was .30 U.S., .30 Army or .30 Government and the rifle that chambered it was "officially" designated the U.S. Magazine Rifle, Model of 1892 (or 1896 or 1898). The U.S. Semiautomatic Rifle M-1 (to use its original designation)-the name "Garand" appears nowhere on it and as a government employee Garand wasn't even entitled to patent rights, but every knows what a Garand is.
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Old August 5, 2012, 08:39 PM   #86
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I
Quote:
ron base? Do you have a means of posting a photo of that critter? Man, that sounds interesting, is it a brass body (sleeve) pressed over the iron base?
I'll try to get a photo of the illustration, my specimen won't show the detail. Picture this: A brass case with no rim and an small diameter opening at the bottom. The rim, iron or brass, is a separate washer. The primer cup is flanged, holds the primer, and acts like a rivet, inserted through a hole in the rim and through the bottom of the case. The primer cup holds the case and rim together.


I'll try to get a photo.

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Old August 5, 2012, 08:46 PM   #87
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Quote:
Popular terminology vs "Official" or factory designation. The "Official" designation for the round we call the 30-40 Krag was .30 U.S., .30 Army or .30 Government and the rifle that chambered it was "officially" designated the U.S. Magazine Rifle, Model of 1892 (or 1896 or 1898). The U.S. Semiautomatic Rifle M-1 (to use its original designation)-the name "Garand" appears nowhere on it and as a government employee Garand wasn't even entitled to patent rights, but every knows what a Garand is.

I've been criticized for saying our troops in WW II and in Korea did not use .30-06 ammunition, as that is the commercial designation, and .30 M1906 cartridges were obsolete prior to WW II. We were issued .30 M2 AP ammunition in Korea.

Nor was it ball ammunition. In my short service carreer, ball ammunition was issued only in the Continental United States, and was used for training or guard duty only. The steel, later tungsten, cored bullet, clad in a gilding metal jacket, was overseas issue.

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Old August 5, 2012, 09:30 PM   #88
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Quote:
The primer cup is flanged, holds the primer, and acts like a rivet, inserted through a hole in the rim and through the bottom of the case. The primer cup holds the case and rim together.
So not too different than say, a 209 shotshell primer? I could see that looking sorta rivetish. Sure am glad things improved for the better over the years.
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Old August 5, 2012, 09:43 PM   #89
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Quote:
So not too different than say, a 209 shotshell primer? I could see that looking sorta rivetish. Sure am glad things improved for the better over the years.
Exactly! Shotshells use the battery cup primer, except they don't hold the rim on.

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Old August 6, 2012, 07:05 AM   #90
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I can still find absolutely no indication that that kind of cartridge construction was ever used for handgun rounds in Britain.

It must have been for a VERY short period of time.
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Old August 6, 2012, 10:05 AM   #91
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Mike,

Here is a drawing of the .450 round from White & Munhall's work:



According to the text, "The British service cartridges of this caliber were always of the Boxer construction that had been patented in England in 1867."

They also state that this cartridge was in use from 1867 until about 1882. And under "Cartridge Types":

"Both British official types previously mentioned were made commercially." As I said, my specimen is commercial, brass based, and H/S "Eley." It is possible to feel a little "wiggle" when jiggling the rim.

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Old August 6, 2012, 10:34 AM   #92
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Interesting.

I've found some pictures on the web that showing the head on .450 cartrdiges. Several of them obviously have an iron (or non-brass) rim and a cupped primer.
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Old August 22, 2012, 10:11 AM   #93
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Non existant round

When I see a head stamp that says 45 LONG COLT or 45 SHORT COLT, I will acknowledge its existence....Until then, it's just 45 COLT. I've been shooting for 47 years and hand-loading for 21, that's gotta count for something.
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Old August 22, 2012, 10:20 AM   #94
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Well, don't let the people who introduced this round to the world confuse you, then...

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Old August 22, 2012, 10:29 AM   #95
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I'm not sure the headstamping is proof positive of anything, although I will assume it to be accurate as far as it goes. Military ammunition is generally rather vague in that respect, as far as civilian or non-military terminology is concerned. As an example (and my only example), I have a few loaded cartridges that are marked ".38 Long." It also has the maker's name but .38 Long is all it says regarding what it is. I suppose I could safely assume it is a .38 Long Colt but that's not how it's marked.

It might be an early example of how cartridges become generic in name. It's really the .38 S&W Special, not just .38 Special and .40 Smith & Wesson, not .40 Auto, but I doubt many people get confused. At least no one argues the point about them.

So then, how were the very first army issue .45 revolver cartridges marked?
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Old August 22, 2012, 11:07 AM   #96
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"So then, how were the very first army issue .45 revolver cartridges marked?"

Heheheheheh...

I'm VERY glad that you asked that...

They were NOT marked/headstamped.

They were loaded into internally primed copper cases that were unheadstamped.

The packages were, however, marked similarly to this...





So, I would have to say that, based on the markings above, the REAL name for this cartridge isn't .45 Long Colt, or even .45 Colt, it's Revolver Ball Cartridge, .45 Caliber"
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Old August 22, 2012, 11:52 AM   #97
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You guys are just complicating the matter. It was designed as the .45 Colt from day 1. Period. It was called the .45 Long Colt for a period of time due to 'lots' of confusion during the early years. We all know the history (or bits and pieces of it). But today, there is no absolutely NO confusion as there is only in production the .45 Colt, .45 Schofield (limited to a few customers), .45 Auto Rim (even more limited), and the ever popular .45 ACP. I think there is now a 'Cowboy' out there too for the CAS crowd. Really simple enough even for me to keep track of.... And yet some still call the .45 Colt the .45 Long Colt for some reason .... even when they 'know' better. I suppose there will still be someone calling the .45 Colt by it's alias in another 100 years.... just because, by golly, he/she can .

So is it wrong to call it the Long Colt? Technically yes as there never was an official specification for the Long Colt (The .45 Casull is the closest I think to a long colt) . But from a historical point of view, it was for awhile called the Long Colt out of necessity ... So yes... and no .... but some still like to roll of the tongue that they shoot the .45 Looooong Colt.....
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Old August 22, 2012, 11:55 AM   #98
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Very good thread.

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Old August 22, 2012, 12:17 PM   #99
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Well, obviously not everyone called it that and several other cartridges, the .30-40 Krag did not get called that until later. I wonder what the soldiers there were issued .45 Colt cartridges called them? If they originally called it the .45 Long Colt, I don't see how it could have become incorrect later, though that sort of thing does happen.

Sometimes incorrect names get carried over from an earlier name and also, designations sometimes are applied much later on to something that never officially carried that name to begin with. Collectors are prone to doing that sort of thing, although it does help sometimes. For instance, the first "field jacket" issued to the army in 1941 was called simply a "field jacket." It wasn't a Model 1941, though it was sometimes called a Parsons jacket. The garment that replaced it was officially a "coat" but ever since then, everyone has called it a "field jacket." In fact, the term gained enough currency for the British to rename their DPM smock a "field jacket," which is so marked on the label.

In like manner, you may notice that even then the term "ball" cartridge was already in use, though obviously the bullet was not a ball but a conical "bullet" shape, which you may also notice already had a flat point that .45 Colt bullet retains to this day.

And did you ever notice how cartridges from that period tended to come in very small packages?
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Old August 23, 2012, 03:06 PM   #100
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I believe the "solid head" designation used on earlier American made cartridges was to differentiate them from the folded head cartridges, such as the early inside primed military cartridges were (made the same way rimfire cases are made). Today we call those early "solid head" cases "balloon head" and later cases solid head.


As to clips and magazines, the Shooters Bibles from the early 60's have many manufacturers using the term clip for their magazines.


Very interesting thread.
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