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Old July 28, 2012, 11:24 PM   #26
zxcvbob
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Ammo Recomendations For CCW 22 Rimfire?
CCI MiniMags. They are the only .22LR ammo that I know of that works well in every gun, and they are not terribly expensive. I'd probably go with the 40 grain solids rather than the hollow points.

.38 Special wadcutters would be a better choice, but that's not what you asked about.
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Old July 30, 2012, 11:14 PM   #27
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Every living creature I ever shot with a 22 lr either changed its mind or died. It would take an unusally strong woman to operate my Taurus 94. My smith j frames work great. I think people who respond to this kind of post should have some experience killing with a 22. I know for a fact that a minimag hp will blow the heart and lungs out of a small dog
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Old July 30, 2012, 11:22 PM   #28
Frank Ettin
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Originally Posted by thibaultfelix40
...I know for a fact that a minimag hp will blow the heart and lungs out of a small dog
How about a 250 pound man loaded with adrenalin and methamphetamine advancing on you from a distance of 15 feet and swinging a machete?
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Old July 31, 2012, 01:39 AM   #29
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Frank Etten, what hand gun does stop that guy? I think that scenairio is more about the power of the drugs than the power of the gun. I don't go where they hangout,but eight in the knee or throat might do the trick better than a 45 into space
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Old July 31, 2012, 01:51 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by thibaultfelix40
Frank Etten, what hand gun does stop that guy? I think that scenairio is more about the power of the drugs than the power of the gun. I don't go where they hangout,but eight in the knee or throat might do the trick better than a 45 into space
My point is that for the purposes of choosing self defense ammunition, what it will do to a small dog is completely irrelevant.

But to raise another point, what could possibly make you believe that if someone is attacking you with a contact weapon, you'd be able to put eight rounds into his knee or throat. And if he started 15 feet away from you, you'd have about one second to do it in.
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Old July 31, 2012, 08:46 AM   #31
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The .22 that she'll carry beats the .45 that stays at home every day of the week and twice on Sunday. With that said, it might also be worthwhile to at least ask her try out some of the reduced recoil .38 Spl loads that are out there.

Good luck in your search.
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Old July 31, 2012, 09:33 PM   #32
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Ruger LCR-22 is a good .22 carry gun. Lightweight, accurate, reliable, and utterly simple to operate. Prices are falling on these to well under $400.

Maybe next year they'll offer the LCR in .22 Magnum or .32 Long/Magnum. Those would make a nice choice for the recoil sensitive, with a bit more pop than the .22LR.
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Old August 1, 2012, 12:55 AM   #33
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Frank, my point is that the 22 left a hole about the size of a 50 cent piece in 8 inches of chest tissue. I think that the physical damage done by bullets to animals can be drawn on to extrapolate what might happen to a human. My question to anyone talking about bullet effectiveness is: Have you ever shot a living creature?
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Old August 1, 2012, 01:30 AM   #34
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thibaultfelix40
...the 22 left a hole about the size of a 50 cent piece in 8 inches of chest tissue. I think that the physical damage done by bullets to animals can be drawn on to extrapolate what might happen to a human...
You might think that, but do you have any evidence to support that claim?

In any case, the physiological effects of any particular amount of tissue damage would be vastly different for a 200 pound man compared with a 20 pound dog. The man has greater depth, density and amount of musculature, heavier bones, larger organs and a much greater blood volume. If, for example, a bullet damages 0.5% (by weight) of a 20 pound animal's total tissue mass (about 1.6 ounces), that amount of tissue damage is only 0.05% of the 200 pound man's total tissue mass. And even 2% of the dog's tissue mass is still only 0.2% of the man's.

Understand that there are four ways in which shooting someone stops him:
  1. psychological -- "I'm shot, it hurts, I don't want to get shot any more."
  2. massive blood loss depriving the muscles and brain of oxygen and thus significantly impairing their ability to function
  3. breaking major skeletal support structures
  4. damaging the central nervous system.

Depending on someone just giving up because he's been shot is iffy. Probably most fights are stopped that way, but some aren't; and there are no guarantees.

Breaking major skeletal structures can quickly impair mobility. But if the assailant has a gun, he can still shoot. And it will take a reasonably powerful round to reliably penetrate and break a large bone, like the pelvis.

Hits to the central nervous system are sure and quick, but the CNS presents a small and uncertain target. And sometimes significant penetration will be needed to reach it.

The most common and sure physiological way in which shooting someone stops him is blood loss -- depriving the brain and muscles of oxygen and nutrients, thus impairing the ability of the brain and muscles to function. Blood loss is facilitated by (1) large holes causing tissue damage; (2) getting the holes in the right places to damage major blood vessels or blood bearing organs; and (3) adequate penetration to get those holes into the blood vessels and organs which are fairly deep in the body. The problem is that blood loss takes time. People have continued to fight effectively when gravely, even mortally, wounded. So things that can speed up blood loss, more holes, bigger holes, better placed holes, etc., help.

So as a rule of thumb --
  • More holes are better than fewer holes.
  • Larger holes are better than smaller holes.
  • Holes in the right places are better than holes in the wrong places.
  • Holes that are deep enough are better than holes that aren't.
  • There are no magic bullets.

The bottom line is that a lower power cartridge with a smaller caliber bullet will make smaller holes and may not be able to as reliably penetrate to where those holes need to be in order to be most effective.

Or to put it another way, why would anyone think that a .22 will be enough when sometimes a .357 Magnum isn't necessarily enough. LAPD Officer Stacy Lim was shot in the chest with a .357 Magnum and still ran down her attacker, returned fire, killed him, survived, and ultimately was able to return to duty.

I realize that there may be reasons why one would need to use a sub-caliber cartridge for self defense -- extreme recoil sensitivity, a need for deep concealment, etc. But a .22lr is a long way from being an optimal choice.
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Old August 1, 2012, 01:32 PM   #35
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But a .22lr is a long way from being an optimal choice.
Naturally, but if a .22 is what the lady will carry - so be it until she is comfortable enough or ready for a more robust round
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Old August 2, 2012, 01:38 AM   #36
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Frank, you and me are both animals. Yes I do think that what bullets do to animals is indicatove of what they do to people. To deny this is absurd. I was once violently attacked by a guinea fowl after I chopped its head off. Like many other hunters I have shot a deer strait through the chest and it never faltered just kept on running. This was with a 30/06. I personally like a 38 or 357 for SD. Long guns don't fit my lifestyle that well. Like some other old farts I am fond of my short 12 ga sxs and 30/30. All those tissue damage versous body weight ratios are without meaning. Numbers don't kill thugs but a gal with a 22 often does.
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Old August 2, 2012, 02:05 AM   #37
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thibaultfelix40
...Yes I do think that what bullets do to animals is indicatove of what they do to people. To deny this is absurd...
So the fact that:
Quote:
Originally Posted by thibaultfelix40
...a minimag hp will blow the heart and lungs out of a small dog...
means that a minimag will also blow the heart and lungs out of a 200 pound man? Is that what you're saying? If so, I don't buy it. If not, you need to more clearly express yourself.
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Old August 2, 2012, 02:05 AM   #38
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FYI

First off, as the OP, Thanks for all the input. I am taking it all in, believe me. Just for clarification here is some information. 1) I agree with all who believe that she should be looking at something more powerful but since taking her CCW course where the police officer giving the class gave her somewhat of a thumbs up for carrying a 22 rimfire, I don't know squat . She has always been recoil/noise sensitive whenever we have shot in the past and is determined to use a 22. What more can I say???? 2) She seems to be leaning towards a Walther. That is the pistol she shot in the class. 3) I have been doing a lot of talking to her about doing a lot of shooting, 22RF of course, and hope that once she gets comfortable she may be willing to upgrade in the power department. 4) I don't want to get into all the details but the nature of her job puts her at risk and she has already had someone arrested and convicted and the guy doing jail time as a result of threats on her life at the office in person and repeated threats over the phone. Again I wish to Thank all of you for giving some very good advice. I really appreciate you taking the time.
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Old August 3, 2012, 11:43 AM   #39
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1) I agree with all who believe that she should be looking at something more powerful but since taking her CCW course where the police officer giving the class gave her somewhat of a thumbs up for carrying a 22 rimfire, I don't know squat . She has always been recoil/noise sensitive whenever we have shot in the past and is determined to use a 22. What more can I say????
Practice, Practice, Practice. Aside from being encouraging i don't see that there is anything you can do. If yours is anything like mine one she gets an idea in her head, there is no point in trying to convince her otherwise.

A .22 will do the job, provided with the right ammunition in a good platform and provided that she does her part. No, it is not a "one shot stopper" but what handgun bullet is (yeah yeah yeah, .45 all the way). As far as the Walther (P22 I assume?) - meh. There are better and there are worse and opinions will vary. Might be a fun outing for both of you to go to a range that does rentals and let her take a few for a spin
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Old August 3, 2012, 10:02 PM   #40
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Mr.Ettin, thank ypu for introducing me to Stacy Lim, what a brave and capable police officer she is!! However, having carried a 22 for most of my 67 years and using them on animals from insects to wild pigs I know it hurts real bad. It is often said that it just makes things mad to shoot them with a 22. I have not observed this, they either ran or died. I haven't shot any people with a 22 but I have faced down a few.
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Old August 4, 2012, 10:01 AM   #41
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Been interested in those mentioning using a .22WMR for qualifying for a CCW .. wonder how many other states are like Texas, where the minimun caliber for testing for a CHL is either .380 or .38 .. and if you test with a revolver, you can't carry a semi if you later change your opinion about what you want for SD ...
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Old August 4, 2012, 11:19 AM   #42
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7mm, make sure for real that whatever ammo you pick functions 100 out of 100 in the gun. If it's a semi auto make sure she loads the magazines.
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Old August 6, 2012, 02:24 PM   #43
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If it's a semi auto make sure she loads the magazines.
And can rack the slide
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Old August 6, 2012, 10:59 PM   #44
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In Az., you can qualify with any legal hand gun & then carry anything you want. I qualified with a Single Six, obviously a .22.
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Old August 7, 2012, 08:43 AM   #45
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As long as the gun functions the chosen ammo fine the actual choice of which .22lr ammo is almost a mute point. Very little difference in the end result between any of the popular high velocity and hyper velocity rounds available, HP or solid. The main thing with using a .22lr for SD is not what bullet you shoot but that you are indeed shooting. Being able to shoot is better than not anyday of the week.
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Old August 7, 2012, 03:27 PM   #46
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Round nose versus hollow-point ammo,,,

This really is a thing to consider though,,,
One will make a raggedier hole,,,
The other a deeper hole.

I centered on round nose in my semi's,,,
Hollow-point in my S&W revolver,,,
Strictly for the reliable feeding.

But if I were to have to choose between the two,,,
I would opt for the deeper penetration of the round nose.

There is a lot of heated discussion on this topic,,,
I am in the camp of her carrying any gun is better than no gun.

The one advantage of the .22 round that no one can argue with,,,
Is that it's low cost allow for more practice shooting,,,
This should translate to proficiency and accuracy.

My bottom line recommendation,,,
CCI Mini Mag Round Nose.

Aarond

P.S. If you can't find a Walther in .22 LR,,,
Consider a Bersa Thunder 22,,,
Mine is a true performer.

.
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Old August 17, 2012, 10:44 PM   #47
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Interesting I have a good friend and his wife who have the same desire and I cannot talk them out of it even to a 22 Mag, or 32 or 380.

Plenty of folks have been killed with a 22, the problem is by the time they died if they were attacking you, you would probably be killed before they died.

I too have heard CCI is the best and I have shot plenty of small game with a 22 mostly head shots but if I wanted to penetrate a man's skull or ribcage with a 22 I would probably use solids.
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Old August 18, 2012, 07:51 AM   #48
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Carry whatever works in her gun.


If more than one load really works, the tie breaker is accuracy.
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Old August 18, 2012, 08:17 AM   #49
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As was said a few times above make sure the ammo you pick will function 100%. I have an LCR-22 that I carry some. It will fire all 8 Stingers with no issues. They do eject a little stiff.
Velocitors lock the gun up solid on the first shot. Not a good choice in my LCR-22.

Also as was said above you can afford to shoot a 22 enough to get good with it. My accuracy has really came up with my 442 Pro Moon Clip after shooting bricks of ammo through my LCR-22 for Practice & Training.

As was also said above a 22 in the purse is better than a 45 in the night stand.

Bob
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Old August 18, 2012, 09:52 PM   #50
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the actual choice of which .22lr ammo is almost a mute point.
The word you wanted was "Moot".
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/moot

If the person only wants to use a .22, because of noise and recoil, then I would suggest she shoots that .22 a lot.
She should also get good hearing protection, not just for the .22, but also for louder guns with more recoil. The OP might consider introducing full sized guns in relatively light rounds such as 9mm and .38 special, over a period of time.

As people become more comfortable shooting one gun they tend to want to shoot others. Just give it time.

In the mean time at least she has a gun and more importantly a friend.
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