The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old July 21, 2012, 02:56 PM   #26
freebird72
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 25, 2010
Posts: 241
I went to about 4 gun stores today, and everyone was talking about this attack. To no surprise, everyone said they could have taken him down with one well placed shot to the head. Even though I explained to them the amount of protection he had, the AR rifle, the shotgun, the two Glocks, and the gas he used, everyone still said the could have taken him down no problem.

This may just be me, and I have never had training like some of the fellows at the stores had, but I refuse to believe this guy could have been taken down with only one shot to the head. This guy was, for all intents and purposes, bulletproof and he had almost ever advantage in his favor.

I just do not see how one guy with a pistol, be it .380 or .500 magnum, could have done much to this guy before they themselves were taken down by one of his many guns.
freebird72 is offline  
Old July 21, 2012, 03:12 PM   #27
rgrundy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 29, 2012
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 188
If you are geared up like your opponent and have comparable weapons and skills then you stand a chance. If not you can commit suicide by fighting anyways, or crawl out the door like everyone else that survived.
rgrundy is offline  
Old July 21, 2012, 03:15 PM   #28
Dragline45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 30, 2010
Posts: 2,457
Quote:
This situation made me think about what might have been had I been there, armed, and been fortunate enough to avoid being a casualty early on in the attack.

I usually carry my DW CBOB 10mm auto with 200 XTP @1200fps. If I was still healthy after the attack started, then I would have to assess the shooter. From reports it was obvious he was wearing body armor, a ballistic helmet, groin protection, leg protection, arm protection and throat protection; as well as a gas mask. Assuming the shooter was wearing at least Level IIIA armor, this would leave a head shot at the solution to stopping the deadly threat. Shooting to center of mass would only draw unwanted attention from a shooter with a AR-15, likely making me a priority target and get me killed.

Negatives for armed response success:
1) If the canisters releases tear gas, that would likely reduce my ability to see and breath, reducing the ability to shoot accurately and quickly.
2) The stress of being in a deadly situation would likely reduce my ability to shoot accurately.
3) The panicked theater patrons' efforts to escape would likely interfere with my ability to have a clear lane to shoot, and I would likely be physically jostled or worse while attempting to get a sight picture.

My conclusion is that had I been there, survived the initial attack, tried to engage the shooter, that I'd most likely have been shot while attempting to make a head shot. Only if I had somehow found myself in a position where I was close to the shooter, uninjured, unhampered by fleeing patrons and unseen by the shooter, might I have been able to make a head shot or if from behind a neck shot.

All in all a very low probability of a good/survivable outcome for an armed response in my guesstimation. (Ya a made up word.)

This shooter planned and setup as many factors in his favor for his survival. The only trade-off that might have been to the shooter's detriment was the gas mask, as it might have limited his vision if an armed response had occurred.
Everything you mentioned went through my head as well and I came to the similar conclusion that best bet for survival would be to lay low. Chances of going toe to toe with a heavily armed and armored man vs a citizen carrying their CCW pistol with no body armor and surviving is pretty slim. That's not even considering he wont be hampered by the tear gas flowing through the theater.
Dragline45 is offline  
Old July 21, 2012, 04:16 PM   #29
dayman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2011
Location: The Woods
Posts: 1,073
Against an armored psychopath in that environment, I'd say finding cover would be my first priority. Or getting my family to cover if they were with me. But, over all, it's kind of one of those things that you can't really plan for.
If I did find myself in a similar situation - using the tools I'd have on hand - I would think that lots of rounds directed at the neck region (COM high) would be as effective as anything. Hits to the chest are still going to hurt, and the neck/head are going to be less impact resistant even if you don't find seam.
__________________
si vis pacem para bellum
dayman is offline  
Old July 21, 2012, 04:54 PM   #30
sonick808
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 19, 2009
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 396
just because a vest stops a bullet, doesn't mean it won't stop the shooter. Broken ribs, etc. I would presume he was wearing III-A or II, something of the type available at bulletproofme.com

Further, a shot to the legs can be just as effective. How long will you retain consciousness with an open femoral artery ? Not long I'd presume

forget the five seven, let's talk about 7.62x25
sonick808 is offline  
Old July 21, 2012, 05:04 PM   #31
rgrundy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 29, 2012
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 188
I actually do practice to shoot below the helmet and above the throat protector and can do it quickly at close range (15 yards). Some guys told me that if I had been there the guy wouldn't have stood a chance. They were surprised when I told them it would've been iffy at best. This is with a German Made SIG P228. I was mistaken when I said I missed one. It caught the edge then hit the berm behind the target.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-HH1wys70I
rgrundy is offline  
Old July 21, 2012, 05:50 PM   #32
Smit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 18, 2012
Posts: 335
I would absolutey still do the 2 chest, 1 head and repeat until I ran out of ammo. The odds of the person still standing unfluttered by a barrage of bullets hitting him, even with armor on, is still going to more than likely knock him on his rear end. From there you can improvise, or run away....
__________________
"Vegetarian, an old Indian word for bad hunter."
Smit is offline  
Old July 21, 2012, 06:05 PM   #33
garryc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2005
Posts: 2,314
Quote:
I went to about 4 gun stores today, and everyone was talking about this attack. To no surprise, everyone said they could have taken him down with one well placed shot to the head. Even though I explained to them the amount of protection he had, the AR rifle, the shotgun, the two Glocks, and the gas he used, everyone still said the could have taken him down no problem.
And exactly how many of these "Gun Store Hero's" have been in a highly dynamic use of force situation on their own?
garryc is offline  
Old July 21, 2012, 06:12 PM   #34
rocky.223
Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2011
Location: St. Louis Area
Posts: 69
FN 5.7

While I don't claim to be an expert by any means I can speak about what I have expirienced first hand. I have taken a couple training classes at a local range. The classes are taught by certified police instructors. In one of these classes we used a wood stand to hold a standard Police isssue vest.(standard for this area at least)I don't know it's rating but do know that it had no trauma plates in it. The instructor then proceeded to shoot the vest with a .22 thru 12 guage. It effectively stopped every round EXCEPT the Five-Seven and .223. The 5,7 round was a basic green tip 5.7x28 from FN. The 5.7 burned through both sides of the vest like it wasn't there. The vest stopped the 12 guage but I sure wouldn't want to have been wearing it when that slug hit!! OUCH!

p.s. It was a standard off the shelf box of 5.7's that they sold in their store.
__________________
rocky

Last edited by rocky.223; July 21, 2012 at 06:40 PM.
rocky.223 is offline  
Old July 21, 2012, 06:12 PM   #35
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,684
If you recall the North Hollywood shootout, you might reconsider your plan to knock them on their butts. They absorbed about 50 hits.

Also, while you are standing up and shooting repeated ineffective shots - guess who kills YOU.

Today, I shot with national level champions and skilled veteran military. They said the best is to hunker down, hit the deck - if he comes close to you, perhaps shoot.

However, all these - I will shoot a stream of 2 COM and a head shot till I run out of ammo, is just posturing.

Yep, today - I made two very tight double tap head shots on two targets close in to a no-shoot. This was in daylight, behind cover (match coveer). Some people nailed the no-shoot. It wasn't dark, tear gased and with moving people, enemy - all over.

Don't posture.

PS - police 5.7 is not civilian 5.7
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is online now  
Old July 21, 2012, 07:26 PM   #36
Cluck Me
Member
 
Join Date: March 12, 2012
Posts: 37
Wouldn't feet and ankles be unprotected? While they may not be a usual place to stop a threat, they'd no longer be mobile.
Cluck Me is offline  
Old July 21, 2012, 07:39 PM   #37
misnomerga
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 137
Exactly as Glenn aptly put it! Ideal conditions, no lead flying back at you, in daylight, no acrid unidentified smoke affecting your vision. How many folks include night training in their repertoire especially under those conditions. I confess I do not. Rolling out of bed at night does not even come close. I might agree with the poster who stated "hunker down" and if he provides you with a clear opportunity to exploit his weakness then perhaps take a chance. Even then it would be an iffy proposition at best. I am not ashamed to say I would more than likely agree with the other poster who said it would be a strong consideration to crawl out on my stomach like the other folks who survived. Think about the facts folks, he is protected in all the areas we normally look to go at. I have yet to see any information on how extensive a helmet he was wearing. If he was as thorough as he seemed I am willing to bet he took shots to his ears off the table. The probability of finding the soft spot between his throat protection and his helmet would be remote. He was wearing tactical boots so the most popular carry round, 9mm, might or might not penetrate. .380, .32, and .22 have almost no chance at all. This guy was a walking tank, in the dark. From all accounts it was a nightmarish situation.
misnomerga is offline  
Old July 21, 2012, 07:51 PM   #38
freebird72
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 25, 2010
Posts: 241
Is it illegal to wear/own the kind of protection the man had? If not, maybe we should sell a few guns and buy some body armor of our own.
freebird72 is offline  
Old July 21, 2012, 08:04 PM   #39
misnomerga
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 137
From Fox News web page

Oates said the gunman wore a gas mask and a ballistic helmet and vest, as well as leg, groin and throat protectors. He said he bought four guns from local gun shops in the last 60 days and 6,000 rounds of ammunition, including a drum magazine that could fire 50 to 60 rounds per minute.

"My understanding is that all the weapons that he possessed, he possessed legally. And all the clips that he possessed, he possessed legally. And all the ammunition that he possessed, he possessed legally," Oates said at a press conference Friday.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/20...#ixzz21JDdMn5b


My guess is he probably got the clothing legally as well.
misnomerga is offline  
Old July 21, 2012, 08:11 PM   #40
9mm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2011
Location: Land of the Free
Posts: 2,711
Quote:
PS - police 5.7 is not civilian 5.7
What? more please..

Quote:
Is it illegal to wear/own the kind of protection the man had? If not, maybe we should sell a few guns and buy some body armor of our own
Most states its legal to own/wear it, just not in a crime.


Can anyone explain how they caught him? did he just give up?
__________________
See user title
9mm is offline  
Old July 21, 2012, 08:19 PM   #41
Crosshair
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 16, 2004
Location: Grand Forks, ND
Posts: 5,320
Simple, shoot them and keep shooting them until you are out of ammo and/or they are no longer a threat.

Humans are not robots, these sorts of people are assuming that lead is going to only be flying one way. Even among professionals, when ranges go two way marksmanship goes to crap. Kevlar only keeps the round from penetrating, it doesn't do anything about Newtons laws of motion. What effect that will have on a crazy person is anyone's guess, but I can't think of anything that would make things worse, they might panic and run away, their careful aiming might give way to spraying.

As the 86 Miami shootout showed, you also have a good chance of hitting them in the arm while aiming center mass, rarely does anyone have armor there, injure their arms and they are going to have a much harder time aiming and reloading.
__________________
I don't carry a gun to go looking for trouble, I carry a gun in case trouble finds me.
Crosshair is offline  
Old July 21, 2012, 08:19 PM   #42
Tango Down
Junior Member
 
Join Date: July 2, 2012
Posts: 7
Best of my training has taught me to shoot for the foot/feet. No Kevlar shoes that I know of. If so-Armpit while he's taking aim or walking or running in stride. Also a rear shot to the buttox. If the threat has to be dealt with then those are my requisites.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2
Tango Down is offline  
Old July 21, 2012, 08:29 PM   #43
insomni
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2011
Posts: 342
Quote:
Is it illegal to wear/own the kind of protection the man had? If not, maybe we should sell a few guns and buy some body armor of our own.
It's not illegal to own any of the gear he had except for the explosives.

you can buy quality body armor online. There's nothing illegal about it. They just don't sell the current military issue plates. Price is the only thing that would deter anyone from owning armor.


Also Shooting the ankles is ludicrous. Yes it would work. It would work well. You're never going to realistically stress-fire a shot into a moving person's ankle (intentionally) with any handgun that you'd be carrying.
insomni is offline  
Old July 21, 2012, 08:40 PM   #44
Madball6
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 30, 2011
Posts: 156
I'd like to say I'd have handled this shooter had i been there, but in reality without being in that situation its impossible to tell how it would have played out. Personally, I believe i would have made the attempt. Maybe it would have affected the outcome, maybe not. I daresay that the proposed situation would be far too chaotic, and the target far too armored to put betting odds on any particular intervention attempt, other than that the distraction created by return fire may have lessened the damage.

-Ex-army and familiar with tear gas and movement under fire.

-Madball

Oh, normally carry a PX-4 .40 S&W 11+10+10
Madball6 is offline  
Old July 21, 2012, 08:41 PM   #45
garryc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2005
Posts: 2,314
I think most people would shoot all they had in the gun before realizing it was ineffective, and that includes cops. I think that moment when your gun goes dry and you have to go for a reload is the moment you would realize your shots were ineffective.

Most of us shoot on a target like this:


Perhaps one like this and learning to dis-articulate the limbs would be better, at least for very advanced training.



The thing is that the typical CCW holder really doesn't practice ( And cops only practice when they have to usually). He goes through the course enough to get his CCW and that's it. That entry level course does not include any movement, no cover, no concealment, no body action at all. And what happens? They go to the training they do have, which is to be flat footed and stupid. That and they have never fired under stress of any kind.
garryc is offline  
Old July 21, 2012, 09:32 PM   #46
2damnold4this
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2009
Location: Athens, Georgia
Posts: 1,319
Quote:
Humans are not robots, these sorts of people are assuming that lead is going to only be flying one way. Even among professionals, when ranges go two way marksmanship goes to crap. Kevlar only keeps the round from penetrating, it doesn't do anything about Newtons laws of motion. What effect that will have on a crazy person is anyone's guess, but I can't think of anything that would make things worse, they might panic and run away, their careful aiming might give way to spraying.
Exactly. It's not like he had an hour long shoot out with police in the style of the North Hollywood robbers before he was taken. When confronted by police, he gave up. He might have been injured or given up if confronted by an armed movie goer.

An armed movie goer would have to make a quick decision to shoot, hunker down and shoot later or try to escape based upon what they could tell about the attack. Some people have already pointed out that a defender might not know about the body armor until they started shooting back. There are no good answers in a situation this so maybe a defender has to trust luck and any training to be in their favor.

I don't know if there were any concealed carry permit holders in the audience that had left their firearms behind as the theater's policy required but I would imagine that an armed off duty police officer might have made a difference for some of the victims.
2damnold4this is offline  
Old July 21, 2012, 09:52 PM   #47
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,684
5.7 was mentioned as shooting through vests. The round was developed to shoot through body armor in the Nato environment. The pistol and rifle fired an armored piercing round. Military and police can use that. Civilians can't own it in the USA.

As far as shooting for feet, etc. - all reasonable - that's why training is good for failure to stop drills. I'm just down on those who think this is going to be an easy thing to just take him out. Yeah, the cops in North Hollywood and the FBI in Miami were not as skilled as the Internet League of Lead Slinging Justice Dude. They had a hard time. We cannot assume that we wouldn't and we should be tactically smart and be prepared to die - if you choose to fight (assume you had discretion to leave or fight).

If we start seeing many rampage armored folks - you all better get to the range and take stress based training exercises. In the movie with a J frame - that's one for Wyatt Earp merged with Annie Oakley.

Friend of mine was shooting a P238 as a bug. Nice gun - he is national level and he shot as as well or better than the average competitior. But, we had a stage with a steel popper - hit it to activate a swinger. 9s, 40s, 38s, 45s - all activated it. The 380 just pinged off the steel - 5 good shots and it didn't move. So there you are with armored target and your LCP, Keltec, etc. I got a 380 too. Nice pocket gun, not for guys who think they are mecha.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is online now  
Old July 21, 2012, 09:52 PM   #48
garryc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2005
Posts: 2,314
Quote:
Exactly. It's not like he had an hour long shoot out with police in the style of the North Hollywood robbers before he was taken. When confronted by police, he gave up. He might have been injured or given up if confronted by an armed movie goer.
The armed police officers simply brought the coward out of him.

With all the flavorful adjective's I could use for the Hollywood shooters, coward would not be one.
garryc is offline  
Old July 21, 2012, 09:57 PM   #49
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,684
We don't know - psych. hat on. Some of these guys want to go out in a suicide by cop. They regard it as a 'warrior's death. Before the incident, they engage in vicarious reinforcement of fantasizing the pain they cause. They saw the parents and friends weep at Columbine or VT.

But, some want to actually see the pain. They made their point. They will talk at trial about why. Seeing the victims and relatives at trial will juice them up.

Thus, saying the cops got him because he was a coward or this or that, is our projection.

We don't know yet and it will take professionals to figure it. Someone who says this or that about his thought processes or motivations really are just spouting hot air. Psych. folks on the tube saying this is true or whatever, has compared to general findings are close to being unethical.

However, we are wandering from armor. I did need to correct.

Since I seen to be mod point on this - back to armor tactics or we close.

We are still deciding about how to discuss the issue and control the BS.

Glenn
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is online now  
Old July 21, 2012, 10:17 PM   #50
mayosligo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2006
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posts: 301
Not sure what training this crazy person had previous to his rampage. I am wondering how he would have reacted if shots came his way? It may have provided a moment of pause creating an opportunity but that is hard to say.
mayosligo is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:53 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12923 seconds with 7 queries