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Old July 21, 2012, 01:11 AM   #1
freenokia
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How to engage someone in body armor?

This awful stuff in Colorado got me thinking. What can a normal defense caliber do against someone like that?

Say 5 rounds of 38spl, or 7 rounds of 45acp, or 10 rounds of 9/40...

Attempt a head shot? Dump the mag into the body?
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Old July 21, 2012, 01:21 AM   #2
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None of the rounds you mentioned will do a darn thing to body armor. Handgun rounds aren't very powerful against an unarmored torso. An armored one will shrug them off with bruises but no serious damage.

It's a head or extremity shot in those situations. Since I train center-of-mass, I'm fairly screwed.

I think your best bet would be a standard failure-to-stop drill. Two in the chest, one in the head, repeat as required.
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Old July 21, 2012, 01:25 AM   #3
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When 2 to CoM does not do it, aim for the head. Standard data.

There are those who advocate for a groin shot ..... might work.
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Old July 21, 2012, 02:01 AM   #4
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Guy was armored head to foot. Ballistic helmet, throat protector, vest, leg protectors, groin protector, arm protectors, and a gas mask providing some protection for his face...scary.

You guys would really start with two to the chest even with the kevlar?
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Old July 21, 2012, 02:12 AM   #5
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Two in the chest for sure!

Ive shot my old vests with all kinds of rounds! A 40 or 45 center mass is gunna mess your day up and knock you back, giving time for that all important string of head shots! I stopped carrying a 9mm on duty after shooting vests.... if it wasnt for the stain on the vest, you wouldnt know the round hit! On the other hand, the 40 cal 180 grain completely folded the vest around the round... the 45 200 grain knocked the backstop off the rail !!!
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Old July 21, 2012, 02:27 AM   #6
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Seems like the best tool (after the one you brought) would be a 10mm/200gr, or maybe a Czech loading of the .30 Tok.

That said, I carry a 6 shot .38. If the first 2 don't stop the guy, I have 15 rounds to try for a head shot with. I may just try to close to contact distance in the confusion and blow out his gray matter from either side.
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Old July 21, 2012, 03:38 AM   #7
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One of my first reactions to the initial reports was too bad there wasn't someone there with a gun to at least slow him down or take him out. As additional news came out that he was pretty much completely protected I thought what tactics and training could a person have that would have allowed him to take on this threat and have even a remote chance to succeed. How do you train for an event where the assailant seemingly has every advantage. You are tearing up from the fumes of whatever he threw in there. He has a gas mask on. You have street clothes on, he is fully armored up. You are woefully unarmed while he has a arsenal. You would have to be able to hit that cranial cavity under extreme duress and as you are trying he is adjusting to you as a threat and begins directing his formidable assets against you. There is no doubt that training to do things like reload in the dark instinctively by feel, without the need to see your mag and your gun are helpful. There are a myriad of tactics and training. Which ones would be the most key and need to be focused on and honed in order to better prepare if one did find themselves in this situation.

Practice, practice, practice - have to be able to hit what you are aiming
at.

Timely presentation of your gun to the target. Fumbling around wastes precious time

Off hand shooting, as well armed as he was it is reasonable to entertain the thought that in engaging him you might very well have to go to your off hand

Clearing FTF issues in the dark can be challenging!
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Old July 21, 2012, 04:14 AM   #8
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I have never been shot with body armor on but its a bit more then a bruise. I would start with 2 in the chest then work my way up. Most body armor will not stop a knife.

Most rifle rounds will go through standard body armor. So you have a few options.

I would start with 2 in the chest hopefully stun the target. Then put the rest in neck and head. You will draw some attention so be prepared to take fire. If the target were in front of me I would come in from behind and use a knife, in iowa 4 inches is the longest we can legally carry so you want to pull the head back and swipe the neck anything else is not going to get ya enough damage to bring the target down quickly.
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Old July 21, 2012, 04:36 AM   #9
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1000 mw green laser to face/eyes. I bet a S&W .500 mag would go through body armor.

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Old July 21, 2012, 04:46 AM   #10
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The body armor we wore in the military would stop 7.62nato. The body armor we wore in LE would stop deer slugs. 500mag would not be a problem. Well it would break ribs. Buck shot is more dangerous because of the way kevlar "stops" bullets.
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Old July 21, 2012, 06:23 AM   #11
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I have an idea that shooting the right person in a dark room filled with tear gas might be a little difficult, no matter what you were armed with. That is based solely on my experiences in dark rooms filled with tear gas.
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Old July 21, 2012, 07:18 AM   #12
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Maybe if you have never done it. Not exactly dark the movie was playing. Tear gas has drastically different effects on different people. Anyone in the military or law enforcement has experience with oc. Which is what they are saying was used.
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Old July 21, 2012, 07:30 AM   #13
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Unless you were carrying your gas mask and your AR-15 you had little chance of helping. Most of us don't do that yet.
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Old July 21, 2012, 08:13 AM   #14
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What about a Five-Seven? If I'm not mistaken, that round was designed for body armor penetration.

Also, I son't know if this is 100% legal, but what if you could CC or OC an MP7? Again, the round was designed for body armor. Even if it doesn't penetrate or kill, I know it'd scare him a bit. 40 ballistic tip rounds ramming into you even with body armor at 2,000 ft/s doesn't exactly feel like sunshine and cuddles.

Last edited by LOLERCOASTER; July 21, 2012 at 08:19 AM.
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Old July 21, 2012, 08:54 AM   #15
Sheriff Gotcha
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Quote:
What about a Five-Seven? If I'm not mistaken, that round was designed for body armor penetration.
To my knowledge, at least from what I've read, armor piercing Five-seveN rounds are for government and military only. The rounds supplied to the public are non-armor piercing.

There may be other rounds that are not factory loads that may pierce armor, but from my knowledge the ones supplied by FNH are not armor piercing.

Again, I am not a master, nor even overly knowledgable, on the subject so don't quote me as being 100% true.
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Old July 21, 2012, 10:13 AM   #16
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Quote:
I have an idea that shooting the right person in a dark room filled with tear gas might be a little difficult, no matter what you were armed with. That is based solely on my experiences in dark rooms filled with tear gas.
I Have worked in that environment many times. During our cell extractions we do not have gas masks. In an area deployment ( Level 1 exposure is a whole nuther ball game) it is tolerable for long enough to get the job done. The biggest issue is not to allow yourself to panic.

My question about this whacko is about the body armor. If he had hard plate nothing you could have done other that a shot right through the mask would have been very effective. Remember the guys in the North Hollywood shoot out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASdau...B88&playnext=2

This whacko, Highly intelligent, picked a target in which he knew no one would be armed (They always do) planned his attack expertly and then carried it out.

Minus the gun, this guy could have made anything he wanted. He could have tossed explosives, and I would think that had he done that medium order explosives would have been it. (No weak pipe bombs)
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Old July 21, 2012, 11:05 AM   #17
LOLERCOASTER
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Quote:
Quote:


What about a Five-Seven? If I'm not mistaken, that round was designed for body armor penetration.


To my knowledge, at least from what I've read, armor piercing Five-seveN rounds are for government and military only. The rounds supplied to the public are non-armor piercing.
D'oh! Still, I'm sure that preforms better than a flat nosed .45.
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Old July 21, 2012, 11:12 AM   #18
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I don't know the details of what kind of armor he was wearing but he gave up when confronted by police.
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Old July 21, 2012, 11:56 AM   #19
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Well, this sounds crazy, and I can't say what I'd exactly do, but if I was close enough to see him in full body armor and I had my usual carry with me (Bersa CC in .380), I'd just rush him, empty the mag at his face, and try to tackle him when my mag goes dry. I'd hope that my bleeding corpse would misdirect enough bullets away from others and that it'd possibly put him on the ground so others could subdue him.

Maybe said bullets wouldn't stop him, but I can't imagine getting shot in the face with a shield would not have some effect.
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Old July 21, 2012, 11:59 AM   #20
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Hmm, another reason to carry 2 spare magazines, just aim for the neck, or other week spots, the groin, behind the shin(if you are behind) any place where the joint bends is a week spot. The neck line, The face, the feet.

IRRC, North HollyWood Shootout the guy was shot in the foot, because armor couldn't be wrapped there.


What is sad that he killed 12 and SHOT 71/72 PEOPLE, 70+ people unarmmed, such easy targets and not one person to stop him.
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Old July 21, 2012, 12:06 PM   #21
Merad
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This awful stuff in Colorado got me thinking. What can a normal defense caliber do against someone like that?

Say 5 rounds of 38spl, or 7 rounds of 45acp, or 10 rounds of 9/40...

Attempt a head shot? Dump the mag into the body?
Your gun would probably be empty before you even realized he was wearing armor.
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Old July 21, 2012, 12:17 PM   #22
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This situation made me think about what might have been had I been there, armed, and been fortunate enough to avoid being a casualty early on in the attack.

I usually carry my DW CBOB 10mm auto with 200 XTP @1200fps. If I was still healthy after the attack started, then I would have to assess the shooter. From reports it was obvious he was wearing body armor, a ballistic helmet, groin protection, leg protection, arm protection and throat protection; as well as a gas mask. Assuming the shooter was wearing at least Level IIIA armor, this would leave a head shot at the solution to stopping the deadly threat. Shooting to center of mass would only draw unwanted attention from a shooter with a AR-15, likely making me a priority target and get me killed.

Negatives for armed response success:
1) If the canisters releases tear gas, that would likely reduce my ability to see and breath, reducing the ability to shoot accurately and quickly.
2) The stress of being in a deadly situation would likely reduce my ability to shoot accurately.
3) The panicked theater patrons' efforts to escape would likely interfere with my ability to have a clear lane to shoot, and I would likely be physically jostled or worse while attempting to get a sight picture.

My conclusion is that had I been there, survived the initial attack, tried to engage the shooter, that I'd most likely have been shot while attempting to make a head shot. Only if I had somehow found myself in a position where I was close to the shooter, uninjured, unhampered by fleeing patrons and unseen by the shooter, might I have been able to make a head shot or if from behind a neck shot.

All in all a very low probability of a good/survivable outcome for an armed response in my guesstimation. (Ya a made up word.)

This shooter planned and setup as many factors in his favor for his survival. The only trade-off that might have been to the shooter's detriment was the gas mask, as it might have limited his vision if an armed response had occurred.
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Old July 21, 2012, 12:24 PM   #23
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This perp was a hard target.

Best tactic: flank him, get to his 6, back-shoot him.
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Old July 21, 2012, 12:52 PM   #24
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2 CoM... assess and 3rd to head if BG is still standing/engaging... assess and continue as needed...

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Old July 21, 2012, 12:59 PM   #25
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Quote:
Your gun would probably be empty before you even realized he was wearing armor.
A really good point. Like someone else mentioned, this is a good reason to consider carrying extra mags.

It is also a good reason to train at further distances, even with a pistol. I have talked to people that are adamant on the idea that it is worthless to train past 7 yards (usual range of a self-defense shooting I guess). I currently train at at least 15 yards, thinking about extending that.

Finally. Unfortunately, this shooting makes me, and most likely plenty others, realize something. That on a daily basis, I can never truly be prepared for the worst case scenario. A humbling thought.
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