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Old July 26, 2012, 07:30 PM   #26
Andy Griffith
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A smokeless bullet can certainly be used with black powder if a wad or something else is there to help keep the seal tight and base lubed to prevent gas cutting.
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Old July 26, 2012, 08:06 PM   #27
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Base cutting isn't an issue. Getting enough lube is. I use a three groove smokeless bullet and it performs well. I dunno how well a two groove bullet will do. There's no room for a wad with 38 grains of powder.
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Old July 27, 2012, 01:13 AM   #28
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Someone on THR cuts a disc from paper towel [or napkin] that was impregnated with olive oil which he reported adequately lubed a .38 S&W bullet when placed under it.
Supplementing the bullet lube that way wouldn't take up much room in the case.

Last edited by arcticap; July 27, 2012 at 09:27 AM.
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Old July 27, 2012, 03:37 AM   #29
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Hawg....

Oooops.

Looks like I have made my first mistake.

I was planning to use a lubed wad, I thought a felt wad just like in Cap and Ball revolvers.

I saw a video on loading BP cartridges which made use of a wad, but I did not catch the three groove bullet.

Prolly wasn't paying attention.
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Old July 27, 2012, 04:49 AM   #30
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Grooves

Just reviewed two videos on loading BP cartridges.

One guy was loading for a lifle (78 gr) and was using a much larger slug. Three grooves and it appeared that he seated the bullet with all three grooves exposed. I had originally thought he was using .45 Long Colt cases, but I think that is incorrect.

The other was loading CAS loads (20 Gr) with a 150 grain bullet which he said was from (I think) EPP. Had only one groove and the bullet was seated with the groove inside the brass.

Both used a .060 lubed wad. (Which is where I got the idea.)

First guy put paper over the primer before charging the shell, then separated the wad from the bullet with a paper wad.
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Old July 27, 2012, 05:40 AM   #31
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I recommend the Lee breech lock stage. With the quick change bushings you can switch dies almost as fast as a turret.
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Old July 27, 2012, 06:04 AM   #32
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Welcome to the organization Steidle

Thanks for the advice but too late for the press.

I already got one. (Lee 90496)
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Old July 27, 2012, 09:12 AM   #33
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Most of the CAS shooters that use bp use the big lube bullets. They have large grooves. The card will work but I frown on anything that takes up room that could be used by powder. The lubed bullets by themselves may work fine but you may get some leading. It's just as much our fault as your because we didn't tell you everything we could have.
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Old July 27, 2012, 09:23 AM   #34
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I've been doing some additional reading

On THR some folks are saying the substitutes can be used with a two groove bullet. But true black powder should be used with a three groove bullet.

Hawg,

The problem is not y'all's lack of guidance, It is my own lack of patience.



Tnx,
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Old July 29, 2012, 07:07 PM   #35
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The other was loading CAS loads (20 Gr) with a 150 grain bullet

(The above is supposed to appear in a white box. I am trying the "quotes" gizmo option for the first time - not sure how to do it, since I have not yet RTFI.)

Mebbe I misunderstood and mebbe you were referring to .38SPL, but if If the CAS shooter was loading .45LC with a 150 gr. bullet, that is an unnecessarily light bullet - I don't know of any others who do that, black powder or smokeless. Most CAS .45 shooters I've been around load either 200gr or 250 gr bullets (230 being an option). 200 gr. is most prevalent - most economical and a bit less recoil so a bit faster times. For BP, the .44-40 uses 40 grains of BP - I'd worry about 20 grains getting the bullet out of the barrel, especially if drawing from a barrel-down holster position.

A shooting buddy of mine from 1973 days, who now is waaay ahead of me in CAS, taught me to keep a box of 250 gr loads in my cart in case of clueless spotters. By that I mean spotters who only listen for the "clang" on the steel target instead of watching for a hit in the dirt behind a missed target. When a covey of such spotters would come along and call a "miss" when we were darn sure of a hit, and being a sporting bunch by nature, we'd load for the next round or stage with the 250 gr. rounds. The "BLANG" was much more noticeable and would make the point without being confrontational.

Reminds me of how much fun CAS is - very sporting folks, more than in any other of the competitions I've been in or watched much. Fun first, ribbon second.
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Old July 29, 2012, 08:10 PM   #36
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For BP, the .44-40 uses 40 grains of BP - I'd worry about 20 grains getting the bullet out of the barrel, especially if drawing from a barrel-down holster position.
It's hard to get 40 grains of real bp in a modern 44-40 case. 20 grains will work ok and barrel down wouldn't matter because you have to use a filler with bp so there's no air space.
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Old July 29, 2012, 08:53 PM   #37
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Hawg - since you are the veteran here, I'll pass that on to my BP-shooter buddy (I don't shoot it, because I'm married to a first wife - he does, because he doesn't have to care). My assumption would be that the 20gr. is for faster shot-to-shot time, re recoil - is that correct? Good to know, regardless. Thanks.
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Old July 29, 2012, 09:03 PM   #38
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Hawg - off-topic, I suspect (I'm a rookie here) - I was in Meridian a few weeks ago and shooting at the police range in the tiny town nearby (forget the name). Two fellas were shooting big-boom rifles on the 300-yd. range and I asked them what they were shooting. Turned out is was .284s, though I forgot to ask what they necked down from. They were practicing for a 1,000 yd. match to be held in Alabama, not too far away, in August or September.

I'm ancient-old school. To me, shooting 1,000 yds. in a match with sub-.3 ammo is really gutsy unless no-wind is guaranteed. Mebbe they were necking down .338s. Their velocity was fierce. All this stuff reminds me of how much an OF I am, because those two fellas were not spring chickens.

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Old July 29, 2012, 09:57 PM   #39
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They were probably using a standard Winchester .284
Smaller calibers in long range is the thing now and has been for a number of years. My gunsmith used a 6MM in a shortened 223 case and he was good with it at 1000 yards.
20 grains of bp in a 44-40 is a wussy load with no noticeable recoil.
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Old July 30, 2012, 04:52 AM   #40
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Florida Vet

Welcome to the crew.

I get to Dade City, San Antonio, Saint Leo, about once per month.

Anywhere near you?

Tnx,
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Old July 30, 2012, 07:07 AM   #41
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I am still thinking the Uberti 7 1/2 inch barrel Cattleman blued at 481.00 for starters.
Italian made for C/B is one thing._ "Step up to the plate and hit a home run right off the bat this time around."_ Consider buying American made Sir. Get yourself a SAA from Colt.
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Old July 30, 2012, 07:50 AM   #42
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Sure Shot .... It is a valid point you make

However, I think I will stick with a less expensive start since I am not certain I will take to the cartridge reloading world.

I know (or can imagine) the difference in quality between Italian and American and may at some point take the additional plunge.

I have forty Cap and Ball revolvers from various sources and so it is likely that I will not quit with my first cartridge revolver.

But I do appreciate and agree with your advice.
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Old July 30, 2012, 07:55 AM   #43
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Here is another queston......

I cast all of my bullets and intend to continue that as I get into cartridge reloading.

I use two different flavors of bullet metal.

One is almost pure lead at probably higher than 99%. It is quite soft. It was provided to me as "pure lead". I don't know what the provider meant by "pure", but it is pretty good.

The other is a mixture including a high proportion of wheel weights. I think this may be as low as 95% and is somewhat the harder of the two alloys.

Which is right for cartridges?
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Old July 30, 2012, 09:06 AM   #44
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I'm happy you took my advise under consideration when it comes to your ever widening collection of hand cannons Sir. Concerning lead. Which to use. As far as I know. Usually bullet speeds you desire have a lot to do with a leads hardness (BHN) required. 45 Colt for target accuracy for all intent and purposes is usually held to the 700-850 fps mark. For your intentions (target shooting) wheel weights would serve your purpose just fine in a cast Sir. (Straight up soft lead usage.) That scenario I leave for someone else to answer that's more knowledgeable in that category.
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Old July 30, 2012, 09:46 AM   #45
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Pure lead was used in the originals. It worked then, it works now. I use clip on wheel weights for my cartridge guns. It has a BHN around 12. Stick on weights are 99.5% pure. I use those for any and all muzzle loaders.
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Old July 30, 2012, 10:30 PM   #46
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Hi, Doc - no, sorry, I'm over toward the east coast, in central FL. But thanks for the friendly greeting.
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Old July 31, 2012, 03:49 AM   #47
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Well anyway...

...Thanks for the wink back.
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Old July 31, 2012, 06:32 AM   #48
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Actually, I was referring to metal-on-metal sparking rather than static sparks. I am aware of the studies where BP has been exposed to static sparking without ignition. Sparks generated by metal-on-metal contact, however are, as you probably know, actually minute fragments of hot metal like a flint on frizzen spark. Besides, the wiper arrangement in the Lee Perfect Powder measure doesn't cut or crush the grains like many rotary measures with metal drums. I have found it to give very repeatable loads, and it is cheap!
Just about every powder measurer I can think of uses non-sparking metals for the metering part of the measure, brass, aluminum, cast iron, etc.
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Old July 31, 2012, 10:37 AM   #49
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Bullets and powder measure

Doc Hoy,
I am working up a load for .45 Colt as well. My current load is with 200gr RNFP, with only one grease groove with SPG. I have been adding a 1/8 inch grease cookie (50/50 beeswax/crisco) to soften the fouling. I plan to try some out without the cookie, but I'm pretty sure that the single groove won't be enough. I have some 452190's with two grease grooves with SPG and will try them soon with and without the grease cookie. I think next I will try the Big Lube bullets as well. My intent is to get away from the grease cookie as it is labor intensive. I don't mind using them on 45-70, but it takes too long if I want to load 200 pistol rounds.
I use the Lyman Black Powder Measure - made specifically for BP, and have had no troubles. It even fits (albeit loosely) on my RCBS progressive loader. Seems to throw fairly consistent charges.

Cheers,
Chowmi
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Old July 31, 2012, 07:54 PM   #50
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Picked up a shooting iron today

Went to Green Top Hunting and Fishing in Glen Allen, VA.

They had a Uberti Cattleman in stock with a 4.75 inch barrel.

Shorter than I wanted but this gives me a reason to buy more pistols.

Price was 429.00 minus five percent for Navy retired.

Got 200 primers and a Lee auto-primer as well.

They wanted 35.00 a hundred for cases and I thought that was too steep.





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