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Old July 21, 2012, 01:12 PM   #26
garryc
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The article makes the point that most competitions are tactically unrealistic.
I've shot a good bit of combat courses. There is one key difference I see, other than no return fire. That is that every course I have shot has been under attack and overcome. That is not the model for SD, which is defend and withdraw. I could care less if the guy walks away unscathed, as long as I do.

The again I know a lot of "Range Hero's"
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Old July 21, 2012, 01:56 PM   #27
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The 'Catch-22' in my opinion is that if you are trained and conditioned to respond with force, you just might end up doing that as a autonomic response in a bad situation. Example seems to be the current movie theatre shooting in Colorado. I'm thinking if a guy stands up and draws to confront the shooter, he most likely will be dead in short order. However with lots of training and =practice that just might be the 'Knee jerk' response.
For years my wife thought that my first response was always to draw my gun (her assumption was that I was conditioned to always draw on a threat) as she had never seen me in a bad situation as I avoid as much as I can with the family. Well, one evening out for dinner we were approached and accosted by a would be robber, he presented no weapon and I went H2H and put him down so fast the wife and daughter were standing there blinking.

A gun is not always the answer, it is a tool and should be a part of your strategy, but not your only strategy.

You must be thinking of PPC, or 30 year old training as well as what Hollywood portrays. As Kraig pointed out, IDPA is not like that at all.
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Old July 21, 2012, 02:43 PM   #28
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So where does the instruction part come in?
Well its practice and or instruction. It's mostly practice but instruction comes from the SO and match director. You should try it sometime. It's a lot of fun.

Quote:
And where does the agreement come in, too?
The agreement is rhetorical as with most training. You have guidelines to follow on each course of fire. You shoot as accurate as you can in the least amount of time possible.
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Old July 21, 2012, 05:54 PM   #29
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I am just going to wait until technology catches up and we can run any scenarios/situation for training in a "virtual reality" (insert total recall?). Anywho, yes it is hard to predict what will happen in any firefight due to the endless possibilites, but competion would certainly do more good than harm.
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Old July 21, 2012, 07:42 PM   #30
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Vegetarian: Old Indian word for poor hunter.
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Old July 21, 2012, 09:59 PM   #31
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One thing about competition, having shot today - if you don't have some active shooting experience as compared to the square range - it may temper statement how in an emergency you wll , blah, blah.
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Old July 22, 2012, 08:40 AM   #32
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I have a cousin who is a world class target shooter and I would not take him into combat with me. Being a good shooter does not mean you will be good in combat and being a Navy SEAL does not make you a world class target shooter. Many of the skills used are transferable sure, others will get ya killed. They are different animals.
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Old July 22, 2012, 11:13 AM   #33
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I remember reading somewhere (perhaps a link somewhere on this forum ?) about a project where experienced combat folks from Iraq and Afghanistan were asked to try out a 3-gun course. I seem to remember these were SEALs or USA Special Forces, or similar high speed low drag folks. Does anyone besides me remember this?

As I recall, these professionals did not run through the course in the same way that most competitors do... They were a bit slower, fired fewer shots, and were A LOT MORE CAREFUL about concealment and cover.

I wish I could find the link... Anyone remember this?
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Old July 22, 2012, 11:33 AM   #34
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Depending on what state you live in and your district attorney's personality, it can make it harder to defend yourself if you're ever in court for a shooting-related incident. Some prosecutors would have a field day terrifying a jury with stories about how you like to "dress up an play Rambo" in your weekend IPSC hobby.
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Old July 22, 2012, 12:54 PM   #35
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I was chastized for making a forum post in which I stated I had "brushed my cover back and gripped my pistol" when suddenly confronted by a man who had a revolver in his waistband (not illegal). The man was reaching for something on an upper shelf which exposed his gun and when I came into view, he dropped his hands to his waistband. Cops kill people almost daily for making this move BTW........
Listen to the way your mind incorrectly perceived the situation as you being "confronted" by him. HE did not confront you. YOU surprised and confronted him.

I was sitting in a restaurant some time back, and a fellow who'd been sitting at a table next to mine got up to leave and I spotted his gun in the open for all to see. No one else did, that I could tell (IWB, black shirt, black gun) and he simply took his coat off the back of the chair, put it on and went up to the register to pay--then left.

He violated no law by his temporary open carry, and I didn't either, by removing my coat while seated and letting it drape over my gun and mag pouch.

Guess you would have jumped up and brushed back back your coat with diners stitting all around you, since being "quick to go to the gun" has served you so well.

Sorry, didn't mean to get off topic. I have no doubt that the pressure of competition is a good thing, even if some of the tactics associated with certain phases of the event may be improper, or not practical in a real life situation.

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Old July 22, 2012, 04:05 PM   #36
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Some prosecutors would have a field day terrifying a jury with stories about how you like to "dress up an play Rambo" in your weekend IPSC hobby.
How would that be relevant to a good shoot?
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Old July 22, 2012, 04:46 PM   #37
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In Marin County, or San Francisco County California I doubt a jury could be put together that would think there is such a thing as a 'Good shoot'. The emotional makeup of the jurors is far more important than any complicated facts.

How do you define, 'A Good Shoot' ?
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Old July 22, 2012, 05:16 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Nanuk
Quote:
Some prosecutors would have a field day terrifying a jury with stories about how you like to "dress up an play Rambo" in your weekend IPSC hobby.
How would that be relevant to a good shoot?
If you're on trial, there was some significant disagreement about whether it was a "good shoot." Now it won't be a "good shoot" unless the jury says that it is.

If you're unlucky enough to be in front of a jury, it helps to understand that juries can be influenced by many things. Harold Fish's jury was influenced by his use of hollow points. And this article by our own Glenn Meyer discusses studies showing the a jury could be influenced by the type of gun used.

But while some things that could have a negative influence on a jury also, like using JHP ammunition and being well trained, can increase the likelihood of a good outcome on the street. Other things, like Punisher grips on your pistol, won't help on the street and could be dicey in court. The prudent and wise person understands the difference and plans accordingly.

Personally I don't worry about things like training that could help me on the street. I'm prepared to deal with the issue. Nor do I worry about things that can't help on the street, because I just avoid them.
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Old July 22, 2012, 05:58 PM   #39
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How do you define, 'A Good Shoot' ?
To add to what Frank said:

First you rule out the three S's, stupid people, doing stupid things in stupid places. A genuine self defense situation is fairly easy to discern from a made up SD situation. The story(s) don't match, the evidence does not match etc.

Frequently, you are not the first victim of said bad guy. You, of course cannot totally rule out the ambitious political career of a prosecutor.

Of course I have lived in conservative middle America and will continue to so. The value system is a little different here VS the left and right coasts, that also plays a role in the perception of anything you do.
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Old July 22, 2012, 06:54 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Nanuk
...A genuine self defense situation is fairly easy to discern from a made up SD situation...
Really? Try telling that to --

This couple, arrested in early April and finally exonerated under Missouri's Castle Doctrine in early June. And no doubt after incurring expenses for bail and a lawyer, as well as a couple of month's anxiety, before being cleared.

Larry Hickey, in gun friendly Arizona: He was arrested, spent 71 days in jail, went through two different trials ending in hung juries, was forced to move from his house, etc., before the DA decided it was a good shoot and dismissed the charges.

Mark Abshire in Oklahoma: Despite defending himself against multiple attackers on his own lawn in a fairly gun-friendly state with a "Stand Your Ground" law, he was arrested, went to jail, charged, lost his job and his house, and spent two and a half years in the legal meat-grinder before finally being acquitted.

Harold Fish, also in gun friendly Arizona: He was still convicted and sent to prison. He won his appeal, his conviction was overturned, and a new trial was ordered. The DA chose to dismiss the charges rather than retry Mr. Fish.

Gerald Ung: He was attacked by several men, and the attack was captured on video. He was nonetheless charged and brought to trial. He was ultimately acquitted.

Some good folks in clear jeopardy and with no way to preserve their lives except by the use of lethal force against other humans. Yet that happened under circumstances in which their justification for the use of lethal force was not immediately clear. While each was finally exonerated, it came at great emotional and financial cost. And perhaps there but for the grace of God will go one of us.

And note also that two of those cases arose in States with a Castle Doctrine/Stand Your Ground law in effect at the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanuk
...You, of course cannot totally rule out the ambitious political career of a prosecutor...
Or a prosecutor doing his job.

The prosecutor, just as any good lawyer, will use whatever is useful, within the rules, to further the interests of his client. In the case of a prosecutor, his client is the state, and his client wants a conviction.

And a prosecutor, particularly a politically ambitious one, generally won't be pursuing a case unless he thinks he can reasonably expect a conviction. Losing cases doesn't help one's career.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanuk
...Of course I have lived in conservative middle America and will continue to so. The value system is a little different here VS the left and right coasts, that also plays a role in the perception of anything you do.
Tell that to the couple in Missouri, or Mark Abshire (Oklahoma), or Harold Fish (Arizona), or Larry Hickey (also Arizona).
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Old July 22, 2012, 08:20 PM   #41
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Thats all well and good Frank, 3 of the 5 cases you linked all did something that provoked the attacks in one way or another and I would have issues with them too. 1 case was an X boyfriend attacking, a relationship exists, so does initial suspicion requiring further investigation. Fish was railroaded, no doubt.

Yelling at drunks, arguing and fighting with neighbors, playing bumper cars on the road. That goes back to the 3 S's.

There are a great many self defense shootings that no charges are ever filed, one such example is the recent case in Florida and the robbery attempt.
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Old July 22, 2012, 08:42 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Nanuk
...There are a great many self defense shootings that no charges are ever filed, one such example is the recent case in Florida and the robbery attempt.
Yes there are. But there are also cases that turn out to be legitimate self defense that are charges and prosecuted. And some of those are in gun friendly States with Stand Your Ground laws. And you have no way to predict what your incident, if it ever happens, will be.

So the glib business of "a good shoot is a good shoot" or "in this State it's not a problem" or "it's all the work of a conniving prosecutor" is drivel. Our society takes a dim view of one person intentionally hurting or killing another. The law recognizes that doing so may, under certain circumstances, be justified. But unless and until your act of extreme violence against another human being is considered legally justified, you're going to be in for a nasty time of it.

How well prepared are you for the legal aftermath of your use of lethal force to save your life or the life of a loved one?
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Old July 22, 2012, 08:47 PM   #43
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http://www.locktonrisk.com/nrains/re...elfdefense.com

You win.
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Old July 22, 2012, 09:01 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Nanuk
Yes, if you have that sort of insurance protection you have reason to feel fairly well prepared for the legal aftermath of a self defense incident. But the majority of the members of this board don't have access to anything like that insurance coverage.

Also, I note that the insurance provides up to $50,000 towards the cost of defense of a criminal charge. However, depending on the complexity of the case, the legal bill for the defense, through a jury trial, of a serious criminal charge can exceed $100,000.
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Old July 22, 2012, 09:09 PM   #45
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...to say nothing of a subsequent Civil case, where a conviction only requires a preponderance of evidence.
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Old July 22, 2012, 10:57 PM   #46
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This is something that anyone can test on their own. Compare how good they are before they start competing and after. Use any benchmark you like as long as it is measurable.

If someone has never shot in competition before the change should be evident.

Oh and as I said before if you want to simulate stress stand in a bucket while you shoot and have a friend toss snakes in it.
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Old July 23, 2012, 02:28 AM   #47
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With regard to competition creating potential legal problems:

According to Massad Ayoob and Marty Hayes, they would much rather defend a trained person than an untrained person. It's easier to justify and explain to the jury why the defendant reasonably believed what he did, if they can show that the defendant is aware of such things as:

1) body language and other warning signs of imminent attack;

2) advantages of hollow points, that include less likelihood of ricochets and overpenetration (protecting society) and greater likelihood of stopping the assailant with fewer rounds (protecting the assailant; we had MDs and RNs in the class confirm that it's easier to save a gunshot victim if he has fewer, rather than more, holes in him);

3) disparity of force;

4) knowledge of what the local police carry, and why (another example they gave was a former marine who had a 1911 and 2 spare mags; when asked why, the answer was that he had always been trained to carry that - the jury found that answer reasonable).

etc.

Also, they felt that competition could be a positive factor in a trial: the defendant is honing his skills so that, in a crisis, he is less likely to cause harm to bystanders.

So, could training and/or competition be used against you? Yes. But it could also be used for you.

If you ever get involved in an SD event, find a competent SD attorney (one who has experience in defending people who really aren't guilty, as opposed to one who normally deals with society's dregs - the legal tactics used are not the same), and pay the money for good expert witnesses.
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Old July 23, 2012, 06:46 AM   #48
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Some prosecutors would have a field day terrifying a jury with stories about how you like to "dress up an play Rambo" in your weekend IPSC hobby.
That wouldn't work for me. I've just started a weeknight competition. unless Rambo is running around in business attire with tennis shoes instead of dress shoes, I think I'm ok.
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Old July 23, 2012, 09:14 AM   #49
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Competition and training have been brought up in trial. However, IIRC, the defendants have had remarkably crappy lawyers. Marty and Mas make the point that training, esp. experiences that teach restraint, can be used to your benefit by an attorney. They can construct a positive theme for you.

I will opine (worth what you paid for it), that training that has too much blood lust chortling (Always cheat, always win; Be prepared to kill everyone in the place), might be presented as a negative. We have seen that.

Responsible training would be positive. All my experiences emphasize rational analysis and restraint. Avoidance, escape, etc.
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Old July 23, 2012, 11:01 PM   #50
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"I remember reading somewhere (perhaps a link somewhere on this forum ?) about a project where experienced combat folks from Iraq and Afghanistan were asked to try out a 3-gun course. I seem to remember these were SEALs or USA Special Forces, or similar high speed low drag folks. Does anyone besides me remember this?

As I recall, these professionals did not run through the course in the same way that most competitors do... They were a bit slower, fired fewer shots, and were A LOT MORE CAREFUL about concealment and cover.

I wish I could find the link... Anyone remember this"


As far as how successfully the experienced combat folks completed the course of fire, it would depend on what they were trying to do. It should be painfully obvious that if they were going to run through the stage as if it were a real combat situation to demonstrate how they would do that over in Iraq, they wouldn't shoot it the same way as 3 gun shooters in a competition. Would anyone actually be surprised by that?

On the other hand, if they were asked to run through the stage, after explaining the scoring system, and for them to try and score their best on the stage, I would imagine that they could do pretty well treating the stage as a mere competition and not a combat situation. Mark.
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