The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 20, 2012, 09:31 PM   #51
9mm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2011
Location: Land of the Free
Posts: 2,710
Quote:
5. The officer had a 50% hit rate - way above average for police shootings; but only 5 of his 17 hits (33%)
Is this why in the UK they carry submachine guns?





__________________
See user title
9mm is offline  
Old July 21, 2012, 11:52 PM   #52
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 1,690
Quote:
For many police officers, their "training" means standing in an indoor range, slowly drawing the pistol, clicking off the safety, firing a shot into center mass, and reholstering. And in a real gunfight, that's what they'll do, and they will die.

Or miss. And miss, and miss, and miss, and miss. I read a story once of 4 street cops who opened fire at a crazed gunman at a range of 15 feet, emptying their semiautos. The bad guy killed two of them. Not a single one of their shots hit the target? Why? They were following their training: draw, safety off, fire, reholster.
Really? What department is this? We had turning targets and at 7 yards you have 2 seconds to draw and score 3 hits on one stage. Any body getting shot at tends to miss shots. If you have a link I would like to read the story.
__________________
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old July 22, 2012, 12:54 PM   #53
Sleuth
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 27, 2002
Location: Arizona
Posts: 445
I too would like to know what agency follows the 'slow draw, fire one, reholster' policy. Perhaps 50 years ago, before the bosses learned about vicarious liability and 'failure to train' lawsuits.

and 9mm, those are semi-auto H&K,s not full auto. I checked when I was over there. Think of them as large, clumsy, very high capacity pistols.
__________________
Sleuth
Sleuth is offline  
Old July 22, 2012, 04:45 PM   #54
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,342
Quote:
One thing that surprised me is that he chose to go prone in a highly mobile fight like that. When I read that, I was reminded of the Mark Wilson Tyler shooting as well where he comes around the car and shoots Wilson as he is prone.
I am not sure that Mark Wilson intentionally was prone at that point. He was already shot at that moment. If he did go prone intentionally, it apparently wasn't to fight. Witnesses watched Wilson exchange shots with Arroyo over the hood of Arroyo's truck. Wilson got hit, faultered, and collapsed face down behind the truck. He apparently was out of the fight, possibly didn't think he could move, and if intentional was making himself less of a target. That was when Arroyo walked around the truck and shot Wilson on the ground.

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/ccw/tacoma_tyler.htm
http://archery.ar15.com/archive/topi...&f=5&t=1055926
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old July 22, 2012, 06:35 PM   #55
Steviewonder1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2009
Location: John's Creek, Georgia
Posts: 328
This is why I as a Civilian has taken 5 "Gun Fighting Classes" in the last 2.5 years to learn how to kill the BG when it counts while CCW because I cannot carry a Policeman with me when needed. What I have learned is not taught in their "Qualification Courses". One of the courses included Force on Force using Air Soft with an opponent that shoots back. I consider myself a few steps above most Police Officers on street duty. There are a few S.W.A.T. guys that can school me in some tactics.
Steviewonder1 is offline  
Old July 23, 2012, 02:56 PM   #56
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 1,690
Quote:
This is why I as a Civilian has taken 5 "Gun Fighting Classes" in the last 2.5 years to learn how to kill the BG when it counts while CCW because I cannot carry a Policeman with me when needed. What I have learned is not taught in their "Qualification Courses". One of the courses included Force on Force using Air Soft with an opponent that shoots back. I consider myself a few steps above most Police Officers on street duty.
This depends on the courses you attended and the instructors. Most larger PD's these days have a little more progressive training than you may think. You may consider yourself good, but the cop can call the Calvary, and it will come.
__________________
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old July 23, 2012, 06:32 PM   #57
Jo6pak
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 5, 2010
Location: West Coast...of WI
Posts: 1,450
Quote:
I consider myself a few steps above most Police Officers on street duty. There are a few S.W.A.T. guys that can school me in some tactics.
Careful, a wise man once said, "Arrogance often does more harm than ignorance."

Just an observation
__________________
NRA Life Member, SAF contributor.
Jo6pak is offline  
Old July 24, 2012, 02:44 PM   #58
Conn. Trooper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 12, 2007
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 531
I have found that cops have a broad spectrum of shooters in the ranks. Some very good, some not so much.

Without fail however, I have seen cops much better at producing the weapons, clearing failures, and reloads under pressure than your average gun owner.

That's not bashing anyone, just my personal experience from 16 years in LE and my time in the military. The vast majority of gun owners I see at my gun club and at public ranges may shoot the center out of the target, but when the gun goes click, they stare at it for the count of 5, then attempt reload. When it fails, they stare at it longer and then attempt to clear it. The cops I know clear the weapon or reload imediately. Just my .02 cents.
Conn. Trooper is offline  
Old July 24, 2012, 04:18 PM   #59
zincwarrior
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 1,194
Quote:
Quote:
This is why I as a Civilian has taken 5 "Gun Fighting Classes" in the last 2.5 years to learn how to kill the BG when it counts while CCW because I cannot carry a Policeman with me when needed. What I have learned is not taught in their "Qualification Courses". One of the courses included Force on Force using Air Soft with an opponent that shoots back. I consider myself a few steps above most Police Officers on street duty.

This depends on the courses you attended and the instructors. Most larger PD's these days have a little more progressive training than you may think. You may consider yourself good, but the cop can call the Calvary, and it will come.
more importantly, who cares? Unless you're duking it out with cops (which is wrong on so many levels) it has nothing to do with how good you are vs. you're average cop. Its how good you are vs. your average BG that counts.
zincwarrior is offline  
Old July 24, 2012, 05:04 PM   #60
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,531
Quote:
Originally Posted by zincwarrior
more importantly, who cares? Unless you're duking it out with cops (which is wrong on so many levels) it has nothing to do with how good you are vs. you're average cop. Its how good you are vs. your average BG that counts.
How good is the average BG? How do you know? How do you know that the BG you might some day meet up with will be the average BG? Could he turn out to be as good as the BGs in the Miami Shootout? Could he turn out to be as good as the BGs in the North Hollywood Shootout?

You can't know until you get there. And if your skills at the time aren't up to the task, you'll be very unhappy with how things turn out.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.08970 seconds with 7 queries