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Old July 17, 2012, 07:12 PM   #26
kraigwy
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Jeff Cooper once said at Gunsite, "You will learn to worship your front sight."
I be it would have been a bit quicker to get on the front sight the shooting a clip full of what ever he was carrying.
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Old July 17, 2012, 07:51 PM   #27
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Sometimes you run into someone who just refuses to die, even with multiple wounds that should have killed them.

I've included a link to a Vietnam War Medal of Honor winner and his ordeal. He had something like 40 different wounds when he finally arrived at a hospital 8 hours after being hit the first time. Eight were major wounds from 7.62X39 rounds including 1 that completely penetrated a lung. He had a bayonette wound, 28 different shrapnel wounds, a broken jaw from hand to hand fighting and a buttstock to his face. His 1st evac. helicopter was shot down, he survived the crash and still helped load wounded onto a 2nd helicopter.

When he arrived at a hospial his intestines were outside his body and when no pulse was found he was declared dead. His eyes were caked shut with blood and mud and he could not open them. He spit in the DR.'s face to let him know he was still alive.

If this guy survived all this, and continued fighting for hours, debating the effectiveness of 45 vs 9mm vs 357 seems a bit pointless.

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Old July 17, 2012, 09:14 PM   #28
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Sometimes you run into someone who just refuses to die
I bet ammunition played a key factor in that too
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Old July 17, 2012, 09:33 PM   #29
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The fans of the 5906 talk about it with reverant awe - like it was the best nine ever.

As guns go - it was just an OK gun, and IMO it was never better than a BHP anyway.

The perp's 5906 stove piped on him and he did a NY reload - downgrading to a 380 auto.

Good for the officer...

What didn't work for the officer:

Quote:
Gramins let loose with a barrage of rounds hoping that what he might lose in accuracy would be compensated for by its suppressive nature.
What did work:

Quote:
He paused, took a breath and a second to consciously line his sights up on what he could see of Maddox's head as the man crouched on the downslope of the opposite side of the street. Slowing himself down, Gramins locked in his sights on the suspect's head and fired a three-round volley in rapid succession.
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Old July 18, 2012, 07:42 AM   #30
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Maybe the better question is "How many rounds did he waste firing the 'barrage' instead of using the front sight in the first place?"......
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Old July 18, 2012, 07:05 PM   #31
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Maybe the better question is "How many rounds did he waste firing the 'barrage' instead of using the front sight in the first place?"......
Jeff Cooper opined that in the time it takes to empty a 'crunch-ticker' (that's a DA/SA simi-auto) one could have just aimed and fired a few precise shots.

The thing is, once you let fear creep in it's easy to just panic some and start putting out as much firepower as you can.

The trick is to control your fear. And that is why Japanese Samurai considered themselves already dead. It allied their fears, reduced panic, and kept them steady in the face of danger.

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Old July 18, 2012, 07:52 PM   #32
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I wonder how many of the armchair quarterbacks have ever actually been shot at.

"He shoulda done this, coulda done that, blah, blah, yadda, yadda".

At the end of the day he was breathing and the criminal was not. Sounds like a successful outcome to me.
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Old July 18, 2012, 09:56 PM   #33
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I wonder how many of the armchair quarterbacks have ever actually been shot at.

"He shoulda done this, coulda done that, blah, blah, yadda, yadda".

At the end of the day he was breathing and the criminal was not. Sounds like a successful outcome to me.
Indeed
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Old July 18, 2012, 10:13 PM   #34
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Those that fail to learn from the mistakes of others will make the same ones.

'Armchair quarterbacking' is not the same thing as analyzing what happened and how it could have turned out better, especially if one day YOU are in that situation.

And that is why you analyze such incidences and see if there was a better way it could have been done.

And do note, people such as Jim Cirillo (a cop) and Lance Thomas (a jeweler), went against much greater odds and didn't end up firing all over the place.

So learn from history least you repeat it.

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Old July 18, 2012, 10:59 PM   #35
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Have you learned anything from this that you didn't already know?
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Old July 19, 2012, 12:23 AM   #36
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Have you learned anything from this that you didn't already know?
there is a reason(s) why you hear stories of cops missing their target on occaision in the news and/or wherever. iT ISN'T ALWAYS TRAINING ACEDEMY, PEOPLE NOT KNOWING WHAT THEY ARE DOING, ETC(SORRY HIT CAPS BY ACCIDENT)

and the example up above ///
Quote:
stories of cops missing their target on occaision in the news and/or wherever
/// is just an example. people miss for a reason sometimes because they don't make little adjustments too. once you start missing it can snowball. this guy in the story seemed to get the job done. if you aren't accurate there is a whole lot of 'miss' that awaits you.
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Old July 19, 2012, 12:54 AM   #37
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I smile when folks over-analyze and talk of it coming out better as the justification. The guy survived a gun fight. Does it get any better ?
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Old July 19, 2012, 03:30 AM   #38
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remember robert redford in 'butch cassidy and the sundance kid' from the 1960's I believe? He asks his new boss if he "can move" when firing his revolver applying for his employment. That scene has a tremendous amount of truth to it.
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Old July 19, 2012, 06:44 AM   #39
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I have learned there isn't anything special about the .45, though undoubtedly it would have been more effective if fired from a Colt.
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Old July 19, 2012, 08:15 AM   #40
Bartholomew Roberts
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Originally Posted by Jo6pak
wonder how many of the armchair quarterbacks have ever actually been shot at.
Why is that relevant? Are those the only people who can offer any useful thoughts on this subject?

The whole point of analyzing such scenarios is not to criticize the heroism of the people involved; but to learn from their mistakes. Another useful outcome of these discussions is to think about possible decision-making problems now and develop a response in the nice, calm, comfort of the glowing computer monitor, rather than try to think up the correct response in a fraction of a second while someone shoots at you.

If we aren't going to analyze these because it is "armchair quarterbacking" then we are depriving ourselves of a very useful tool in learning.

Quote:
At the end of the day he was breathing and the criminal was not. Sounds like a successful outcome to me.
Unquestionably a successful outcome; but the big question is was it successful BECAUSE of what he did or IN SPITE of it? There are no shortage of cases of people being successful in spite of their actions rather than because of them. As a living example of that case, I appreciate that the mere fact that you succeeded doesn't always indicate you had a good approach to the problem.
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Old July 19, 2012, 09:40 AM   #41
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I would come down on the side that says he was successful because of what he did, not in spite of it. The problem is judging based on the wrong criteria. You can't make the judgement based on the number of shots fired but rather on the outcome. That's how you measure the efficiency of his actions.

He might do something different the next time, to be sure, but that's because he got through this one okay.
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Old July 19, 2012, 10:36 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Hook686
I smile when folks over-analyze and talk of it coming out better as the justification. The guy survived a gun fight. Does it get any better ?
The justification for analyzing these incidents is to learn from them. Improvements in training and doctrine have come from such exercises.
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Old July 19, 2012, 06:16 PM   #43
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I smile when folks over-analyze and talk of it coming out better as the justification. The guy survived a gun fight. Does it get any better ?
Better? Were did all the bullets that missed go? Now if one of them had hit some bystander what would you say then? Ops?

And that is why we try to find methods to shoot strait under pressure. Analyzing shootings helps at that.

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Old July 19, 2012, 06:16 PM   #44
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Gentelmen, I would like to make two points:

1. The hits were scored after he focused on the front sight. My "rule" of IPSC is "The steel plate always falls to the first shot AFTER the unnecessary reload" - shooters miss, and switch to just blasting, rather than taking a second to settle on the front sight and HITTING the target.

2. I know this is a gun forum, but when I was training our agents, I kept teaching them to remember "the big peddle on the right". If the outlaw gets out shooting, use the big peddle and make him a hood orniment! Or, reverse and exit the kill zone.

We need to use all the weapons at our disposal, not just guns. Few guns, if any, have more 'stopping power' than a car at 25-30 MPH. Lets use our brains - not every problem is best solved with a gun!
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Old July 19, 2012, 07:27 PM   #45
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Were did all the bullets that missed go? Now if one of them had hit some bystander what would you say then? Ops?
Deaf, you make a good point but I hope that is the last thing on my mind if I am in a life and death situation because those that think instead of react usually falter.
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Old July 19, 2012, 11:18 PM   #46
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The best analysis I can think of to determine what actions can be learned from would involve the actual actor in the scenario. Everybody else is just guessing and offering their personal filters on what should be done.

The best I have heard is shoot until the threat ceases. Simply put if moving left was a good idea, or dropping and lining up the sights, or firing four quick ones while running to right for cover, or .... It will never be the exact same again. Any one of these particular actions might get you killed the next time.

Bottom line is I am not a LEO and will not be chasing any bank robbers, thiefs, or any other low life creature. Those that put themselves in harms way might benefit from such analysis, but it seems to me that can very confusing as one time a particular tactic was successful, the next time it might get you killed. A guy answered his door recently with his hand gun and was killed by the police that had come a knocking.
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Old July 20, 2012, 06:43 PM   #47
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Deaf, you make a good point but I hope that is the last thing on my mind if I am in a life and death situation because those that think instead of react usually falter.
Then practice well and often and when the chips are down... AIM.

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Old July 20, 2012, 07:09 PM   #48
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"Things happen fast. When the worst happens, we fall back on our training."

That's what my CHL instructor drilled into us. He was a DEA agent in South America for 25 years, and has been in more than his share of gunfights. He says that under the crushing, heart-stopping, breath-stopping, paralyzing stress of a face to face gunfight, you will NOT think about "the right shot to make" or "the right thing to do." What you will do is follow your training, whatever that may be.

For many police officers, their "training" means standing in an indoor range, slowly drawing the pistol, clicking off the safety, firing a shot into center mass, and reholstering. And in a real gunfight, that's what they'll do, and they will die.

Or miss. And miss, and miss, and miss, and miss. I read a story once of 4 street cops who opened fire at a crazed gunman at a range of 15 feet, emptying their semiautos. The bad guy killed two of them. Not a single one of their shots hit the target? Why? They were following their training: draw, safety off, fire, reholster.

Decide what your instant, non-thinking response will be to a close range gun encounter. E.g., a double fail (two quick unaimed shots to center mass, an aimed shot to the head), or acquire the front sight, or whistle the National Anthem backwards, or whatever you like.

Then practice it over and over until you can instantly draw and perform it instantly, in a blur, without thinking. In front of you, to your left, to your right, behind you, while sitting down, while lying face down on ground, while walking different directions, and so on, until it is as natural as breathing.

Because whatever you do in your training, that's what you'll do when the lead's coming your way.
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Old July 20, 2012, 07:46 PM   #49
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Without commenting on the officer doing the shooting, I think it's important to acknowledge a few things.

1. We don't know how we will/would react in actual combat.

2. Suppressive fire, keeping the enemy(s) head down to maneuver to a better position, is standard Army doctrine.

3. The enemy may be on drugs or something that makes him super strong.

I was a fighter pilot in Vietnam. Lots of AAA firing at me while I was on dive bomb passes. I learned pretty early that I could take another second or two to get the sight picture right and score a good hit. When I didn't get the sight picture right, I had to go in again to face the same AAA. Doing it twice (or more) exposed me for more time than if I did it right the first time.

Now dive bombing is not a close encounter like the officer had. But there are parallels. I don't fault him. I'm just saying if you can keep your wits about you, you have time to shoot well so long as you have an opponent who is a bit shaken and doesn't keep his wits about him.

So the officer may have used the correct suppressive shooting. He may not have. We have no way other than guessing to know.
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Old July 20, 2012, 09:13 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts
Why is that relevant? Are those the only people who can offer any useful thoughts on this subject?
The short answer is... YES.

Quote:
The whole point of analyzing such scenarios is not to criticize the heroism of the people involved; but to learn from their mistakes. Another useful outcome of these discussions is to think about possible decision-making problems now and develop a response in the nice, calm, comfort of the glowing computer monitor, rather than try to think up the correct response in a fraction of a second while someone shoots at you.
I agree, but I see alot of threads like this, and alot of posts berating the actions of those who were involved.
Responses such as...."How many rounds did he waste firing the 'barrage' instead of using the front sight in the first place?"......don't teach anyone anything.
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