The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 23, 2012, 04:38 PM   #1
Mstaples
Junior Member
 
Join Date: July 23, 2012
Posts: 4
Could Use Some Advice

I'm trying to plan a home defense protocol. I understand that one scenario isn't enough, but this one poses a difficulty for me.

My bedroom has two adjacent rooms... If I go out my bedroom doorway and turn left, there is a living room, if I go out and turn right, there is an office room. I can't clear one room without worrying about someone coming up on me from the other room. But since the office to my right is the smaller of the two and I can see pretty much everything in it with a single glance... and it is the furthest from the front door, so the least likely of the two rooms for an intruder to be in first, I pick that room to be cleared first.

As I see it, if I go for that room first and it is empty, then I have lucked out and I should take the territory, going into the room for cover... then think about clearing the living room. But if it isn't empty... then what?

The only thing that makes sense to me is to shoot dead anyone I don't know in that room. I can't stand outside the doorway to the office and have a discussion about dropping to your knees or lying face-down on the floor... or anything like that because there might be someone in the living room who has just found out that I am there... and might be coming up from behind. I have to get inside that office immediately and the only way I can figure out how to do that and be able to turn around without worrying about the intruder is to shoot him immediately...un-armed or not (people carry guns where you can't seem them sometimes).

Anyone have an alternative of any sort?
Mstaples is offline  
Old July 23, 2012, 04:54 PM   #2
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,791
Pretty simple...

Don't clear your house.
Unless your family is in danger, bunker down, locks doors, call 911 and wait.
Plan A should be hunker down and wait.
Armed (and armored), trained professionals with trained, armed and armored backup clear houses.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old July 23, 2012, 04:58 PM   #3
GlenF
Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 2011
Location: Lawrence, Kansas
Posts: 63
what Brian Pfleuger says

I have taken classes where house clearing is part of it.

My thoughts after those classes is let the pro's do it.
GlenF is offline  
Old July 23, 2012, 05:14 PM   #4
cambeul41
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2004
Location: Southeast Michigan
Posts: 101
Does the office have its own door? It can very easily be fixed so that at a glance you can be virtually certain the no one is in the room.

We have a room that has cat food out and a litter pan, neither of which we want the dog to have access to. We keep the dog from going through the ajar door by looping a string around the inside door knob, through the opening and around an cup-hook outside the door. The cup-hook is in-obtrusive because it is concealed in the angle of the door-frame and wall.

The length of the loop of string is such that no one in the "cat's room" can fasten it outside. If the string is in place, no one is in the room. One might argue that a partner in crime might fasten the string (I actually use artificial sinew), but I am not that paranoid.
cambeul41 is offline  
Old July 23, 2012, 05:19 PM   #5
jmhyer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 19, 2012
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 137
I have a wife (who of course is with me when there's a bump in the night) and four children...each in one of four other bedrooms. I have to think about these things. But it sounds like you live alone. If that's the case, then Brian is correct. Call for help, hunker down in your room, and wait for the cavalry to arrive.
jmhyer is offline  
Old July 23, 2012, 05:32 PM   #6
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,901
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmhyer
I have a wife (who of course is with me when there's a bump in the night) and four children...each in one of four other bedrooms. I have to think about these things....
Yes you do, and your situation changes the plan slightly. In your case, your first order of business is to arm yourself, round up your kids and wife and get them to a place of safety. Now you hunker down with them and call 911 (or perhaps your wife, in your safe room, was doing it while you're rounding up the kids). You still don't try clearing your house.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old July 23, 2012, 06:19 PM   #7
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,791
I don't live alone, I have a wife and 2 small children.
You didn't include any of those details in your scenario.
Pretty nigh on impossible to give you an accurate answer without that information.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old July 24, 2012, 07:53 AM   #8
Mstaples
Junior Member
 
Join Date: July 23, 2012
Posts: 4
Thanks for the advice guys. I do have a wife and her room is on the other side of the living room. If there are bad guys in the house, they would be between me and her.

Very interesting comments.
Mstaples is offline  
Old July 24, 2012, 09:47 AM   #9
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,901
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mstaples
...As I see it, if I go for that room first and it is empty, then I have lucked out and I should take the territory, going into the room for cover... then think about clearing the living room. But if it isn't empty... then what?...
Have you ever had any actual training in clearing buildings? Have you ever done any Force-on-Force training? Most of us who have had some such training have concluded that solo clearing is a very bad idea unless absolutely necessary, e. g., to get family members to safety.

[1] If you go looking, and there is indeed a BG there, you will be at an extreme tactical disadvantage. You can easily be ambushed or flanked. You may also have given a BG access to family members to use as hostages. Or there maybe more than one BG, one of whom can get to your family while you're occupied with the other one.

[2] When (whether you called them or they were called by a neighbor who may have also seen or heard something) the police respond, they don't know who you are. You are just someone with a weapon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mstaples
...I do have a wife and her room is on the other side of the living room. If there are bad guys in the house, they would be between me and her....
And that creates a very difficult tactical problem for you. You might consider designating a safe room accessible to both of you or using her room as the safe room. In general usually recommended home defense procedures are:

[1] You arm yourself. You investigate as best you can from a place of safety in house with your family. You wait and quietly listen. Does the sound repeat? Can you begin to identify it? Can you positively identify it as something innocuous? If the sound is clearly from outside, you look out nearby windows.

[2] If you can't identify the sound and believe there is a danger, you assure that your family and any known visitors are all together and with you in a place of safety. You call the police. You maintain telephone contact with the police. And you wait.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mstaples
...The only thing that makes sense to me is to shoot dead anyone I don't know in that room...
Please understand that the law allows us to use lethal force as necessary to stop a potentially lethal threat. Stopping the threat effectively might result in his death, but if it does not, "shooting him dead" becomes murder.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old July 24, 2012, 09:55 AM   #10
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 9,544
Not all situations are the same.

We tend to think of home envisions as giving you a chance to "hunker down" call for and wait for help.

Not all of use live in town. On a good day, if the sheriff deputies are on my side of the county, I can expect them in about 30 minutes.

That's if all the stars are in perfect alignment.

In reality, that don't work. First off, if I come home and find indications that someone is in my house, I can't call 911. Phone's in the house and my cell phone doesn't work in this canyon (unless I'm next to the repeater or booster which is also in the house).

I think more along the lines of someone kicking in my door while I'm in my chair watching TV or playing on my lap top.

Where I set I can see both doors and always have my revolver in my pocket.

My bedroom is at the end of the house, and from my door I can look out and see most of the house and my pants, w/my revolver is hanging on the bed post in arms reach.

No kids. just wife and me.

My daughter (who lives on the west coast) has the prefect set up. She has a large house, all kinds of alarms and cameras. Her bedroom is set up where she has phones and can hunker down behind a huge bed which gives her cover and clear view of the door.

In setting her up, I told her to get her gun and phone, stay behind the bed and wait. She can monitor the whole house, and inform responding officers the location of any bandits. I told her to leave the phone on after calling 911, to guide the cops through the house and she can tell if and when the cops come to her bedroom door.

If she has a break in when she's gone, she can monitor activities via her cell phone. She can guide the cops through the house while drinking coffee at a near by Star bucks.

Like I said, she's got a perfect set up. I don't, I'm on my own.

But most of use are somewhere in between. Not all of us, (including me) can afford such a set up as my daughter has. And not all of us live in the country like I do.

Every situation is different. There is no one size fits all.
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old July 24, 2012, 10:11 AM   #11
Mstaples
Junior Member
 
Join Date: July 23, 2012
Posts: 4
Very good to hear different points of view. I will have to admit that after 4.5 years in the USMC and having written five books on the martial arts, waiting for the Cavalry to arrive isn't in my DNA. You guys saw immediately that that didn't even entered my mind...which is a flaw in my thinking in this case. I could easily become my own worst enemy. So I'm thinking things through, trying to tap into guys like you who have been at the "thinking it through" process for a while.

I'd love to take a good course. If I can find one, I will. In the mean time, I'm trying to picture myself hunkered down in the corner of my room with bad guys pounding around in the house and my wife in another room. My plan for her was to grab the taser I got for her, get on the other side of her bed and hide. But I'm not sure how much time that would buy her... while I'm on the phone having a conversation with the local constabulary.
Mstaples is offline  
Old July 24, 2012, 11:48 AM   #12
Lee Lapin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2004
Location: SE NC
Posts: 1,238
Go to http://www.nrainstructors.org/CourseCatalog.aspx . Look at the course description for the class "NRA Basic Personal Protection In The Home Course."

Name : NRA Basic Personal Protection In The Home Course
Short Description : Teaches the basic knowledge, skills, and attitude essential to the safe and efficient use of a handgun for protection of self and family, and to provide information on the law-abiding individual’s right to self-defense.
More Details: This is an eight-hour course. Students should expect to shoot approximately 100 rounds of ammunition. Students will learn basic defensive shooting skills, strategies for home safety and responding to a violent confrontation, firearms and the law, how to choose a handgun for self-defense, and continued opportunities for skill development. Students will receive the NRA Guide to the Basics of Personal Protection In The Home handbook, NRA Gun Safety Rules brochure, the Winchester/NRA Marksmanship Qualification booklet, and course completion certificate.(Lesson Plan, revised 08/11)

NRA Basic Personal Protection In The Home course is for law-abiding adult citizens, as defined by applicable federal, state, or local law, and experienced shooters (shooters able to show mastery of the basic skills of safe gun handling, shooting a group, zeroing the firearm, and cleaning the firearm) to maximize what can be learned from this course. Proof of shooting experience can be one of the following: NRA Basic Pistol Course Certificate, NRA FIRST Steps Course Certificate, NRA pistol competitive shooting qualification card, military DD 214 with pistol qualification, or passing the Pre-Course Assessment.


Then go to http://www.nrainstructors.org/searchcourse.aspx and see if there's a class available near you.

If not, see http://www.nrastore.com/nrastore/Pro...=PB+01766&ct=e for the classroom portion of the class on DVD. That will most likely help you formulate a home defense plan, and give you some other ideas to deal with things you might not have considered.
__________________
Mindset - Skillset - Toolset. In that order!

Attitude and skill will get you through times of no gear, better than gear will get you through times of no attitude and no skill.
Lee Lapin is offline  
Old July 24, 2012, 12:00 PM   #13
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,791
A security system with cameras to see the other rooms from your bedroom would be a good choice.
Your wife's bedroom should have a strong, locking door and she should keep it closed and locked.

If there's trouble, one glance at the video monitor will tell you where and how many. You can use a cell phone to text/call your wife.

If she is not in danger and it is possible, either have her come to you or better, if possible, you go to her.

Either way, if you can both be safe and hunkered down, that's the way to go. It doesn't matter how long the police take if you're safe. If you're not safe, they can't be quick enough no matter how quick they are.

If you have cameras, they will have video of the perpetrators. Modern systems are no more expensive than a decent handgun. You can find factory refurbished, full-color, night-vision, 8 camera systems for $6-$800.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old July 24, 2012, 01:36 PM   #14
Mstaples
Junior Member
 
Join Date: July 23, 2012
Posts: 4
Hey, those are some great ideas!! Thanx.
Mstaples is offline  
Old July 24, 2012, 01:49 PM   #15
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 9,544
You have to watch the camera's. They can get you in trouble, like happened to my Daughter. My granddaughter was laying on the floor reading when one of my daughters little dogs (she had 6) came up to GD and raised its leg getting her all wet.

Since, as I said, daughter has cameras and that video ended up on Face Book much to the embarrassment of my granddaughter
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old July 24, 2012, 04:09 PM   #16
Dwight55
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2004
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 2,566
Using a bit of that "out of the box" thinking most swab jockies are famous for: how about??

If the wife sleeps in another room, . . . and the anticipated bg's would be between the two of you, . . . why not harden the walls between your two locations (that would possibly receive any missed rounds flung at the bg) and have a plan where you both hunker down in your respective rooms?

When our son lived with us, . . . he knew my "hunker" location below him, . . . and my wife's.

We knew his hunker location.

All were somewhat hardened against a "miss" from one, becoming a hit on the other.

But the devil himself could not have walked through the middle and survived.

Not all houses can be "planned" that way, . . . but if it is available, . . .

May God bless,
Dwight
__________________
www.dwightsgunleather.com
If you can breathe, . . . thank God!
If you can read, . . . thank a teacher!
If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!
Dwight55 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12293 seconds with 9 queries