The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: Semi-automatics

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 10, 2012, 07:33 AM   #1
misnomerga
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 137
Reason with me

Is it "overkill" from a Home Defense standpoint to add a AR15 to my inventory if I already have a M1 carbine handy. Effective range is 100+ yards. AR15 effective range is 500+ yards. I can't see a scenario where I would have to reach out and touch someone at that range other than our country devolves into totally anarchy. Don't get me wrong I love the fit and feel of the ARs and would love to have one just to have one but if I am weighing usefulness and allocation of funds, it might be more useful to get a portable generator instead, especially if I have a "tool" that can do the job already. What do you folks think?
misnomerga is offline  
Old July 10, 2012, 07:40 AM   #2
UtopiaTexasG19
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 3, 2011
Location: S.E. Texas Gulf Coast
Posts: 740
If it was just for home defense and I already had the M1 carbine I would spend the money on a nice 12 gauge shotgun. Good for close up and also small to medium game hunting. The newer 3/4 and 1 ounce slugs made for smooth barrel shotguns have made them even more handy/versital around the property for me.
UtopiaTexasG19 is offline  
Old July 10, 2012, 07:45 AM   #3
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 7,414
Yes, it's overkill even if all you have is a Glock 17 handy; or a Hi-Point handy.

If you want to have fun building yourself a tacticool semi-auto all-American rifle as a hobby, the AR-15 is the way to go. But, for home defense, IMHO, handguns are more convenient; and for hunting there are far better options than the AR.
Skans is offline  
Old July 10, 2012, 08:22 AM   #4
misnomerga
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 137
Check off the shotgun

Utopia, Mossberg Persuader is already in the inventory So in your humble opinion would it be wiser to spend the bucks bulking up on ammo for the M1 and the Mossie and forego the AR.
misnomerga is offline  
Old July 10, 2012, 08:27 AM   #5
Panfisher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 30, 2010
Location: Missouri
Posts: 498
I would rather have overkill than unkerkill. Too much ability to defend you home (within reason) is better than almost enough.
Panfisher is offline  
Old July 10, 2012, 08:54 AM   #6
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 7,414
Quote:
Too much ability to defend you home (within reason) is better than almost enough.
Not really - the truth is that you will have to do a lot more explaining, to the cops and possibly to a judge/jury in the aftermath.

Me, with my basic, 20-year old Glock 17...............you with your 30 round machinegun blazing with lasers and lights that you custom built for hunting down homeless people who wonder into your shelter. (ridiculous over-dramatization duly noted)

In all seriousness, there are a lot of handguns that will do the same thing a 5.56 rifle will do at distances of 10 yards or less inside of a home, without anyone questioning: "why'd you have to use THAT???" While an AR-15 seems like a fairly standard, not-so-high-powerd, run-of-the-mill rifle to all of us here, it's still what the DC sniper used to snipe his victims from a hidden compartment in his car to the non-gun world.

Last edited by Skans; July 10, 2012 at 08:59 AM.
Skans is offline  
Old July 10, 2012, 09:08 AM   #7
Panfisher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 30, 2010
Location: Missouri
Posts: 498
If that is the rationale then I hope I never have to defend my home since I have considerably more capability than just a pistol. Just because you have an AR doesn't mean you are going to answer the door with it in you hand late at night. (doesn't mean you can't though) I guess living out in the country things seem different to me.
Panfisher is offline  
Old July 10, 2012, 09:14 AM   #8
Wyosmith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2010
Location: Shoshoni Wyoming
Posts: 1,001
Too much time is spent worrying about the tool, and too little on how to use it.
Any gun will do if you will do the job correctly with that gun.

Some guns have advantages over other guns. That is very true.
But it's always 98% the man and 2% what he's using.

I taught individual and small team tactics for several years in the Marines, and later I taught to various state and local agencies. I am just like every other man and woman on this forum in my appreciation of guns and shooting. It's a hobby and a passion for me. I never would try to say someone has "enough guns". If you like a new gun, buy it!

But I write this blurb here for the reason that I see a focus on the wrong thing when it comes to fighting. It's not near as much about what gun you use as it is about how you use it.

If I had to give one piece of advice to any new students it is this;
Gun fighting is 99.5% movement, cover and concealment, and 0.5% shooting
Wyosmith is offline  
Old July 10, 2012, 09:19 AM   #9
gun nut
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 7, 2009
Location: midwest
Posts: 298
+1. ^^^^
__________________
The only stupid question is the one not asked! (Unknown)
gun nut is offline  
Old July 10, 2012, 09:26 AM   #10
Chuckusaret
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 708
I am not a lawyer, but I think it would be rather hard to defend ones self in the courts for shooting a prep that is not on your property much less at more than 100 yds. IMO, if the SHTF, the problem will be the gang bangers, looters and groups of demonstrators roaming the streets looking for trouble. I have the resources to ward them off for an extended time period. I do believe a generator and fuel is a must along with drinking water, food, medical supplies and tons of ammo.
Chuckusaret is offline  
Old July 10, 2012, 09:26 AM   #11
youngunz4life
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2010
Location: United States of America
Posts: 1,877
Quote:
Some guns have advantages over other guns. That is very true.
But it's always 98% the man and 2% what he's using.
I don't know about the statistics, I just know if multiple robbers, thugs, "choose word here" are in my home at night I am at more of a disadvantage if I have my handgun then if I have my shotgun with seven in the tube and one in the chamber. The same goes for panfisher if he is lucky enough to have his AR on him. If he owns the gun and happens to use that for HD all the power to him and he should be ok. Now if he decided to carry that in the truck or under his coat that is a different story(if that is even legal).

I think about the shotgun more and more....it seems prudent to have that more readily available, but we still go with the two handguns at the ready with a small gunsafe nearby and the rifle and shotgun in the closet locked up.

when seconds count....basically it will be the handguns at least at this point....
__________________
"Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" -Admiral Farragut @ Battle of Mobile Bay 05AUG1864
youngunz4life is offline  
Old July 10, 2012, 10:51 AM   #12
Panfisher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 30, 2010
Location: Missouri
Posts: 498
Wyosmith, well said. It will always be the man behind the gun that is the most important, and thank you sir for you service in the USMC.

Just because someone has a particular weapon capable of shooting someone several hundred yards away doesn't mean that they are going to be in trouble. If so then every deer hunter I know needs a good lawyer if they ever have to defend themselves.

If I ever have to explain why I used a particular weapon in my or my families defense (I hope not), the basic reason will be because that is what i had at the time. I didn't take the time to go get a more appropriate weapon so I used a Ruger 10/22 or my old .22 Mag or the old .30-30 or the .45 ACP, or a bat, or a (insert whatever here) because it was what I had at the time.

Rifles are tools and like many tools they can be used for different jobs, might not be perfect but the job gets done.
Panfisher is offline  
Old July 10, 2012, 11:07 AM   #13
Youngshooter
Member
 
Join Date: July 10, 2012
Posts: 49
Mossberg 500/Remington 870 in the shortened home defense models are both extremely viable options. I have also heard, although in much debate, is that birdshot is just as, if not more optimal of a load than 00 buckshot when in a home defense "face to face" confrontation. With that being said, none of what I said before is worth a grain of salt without proper practicing on the gun along with other family members in the household knowing how to handle it properly. I've read plenty of articles where little Jimmy stopped an intruder because he was practiced and knew what to do.
Youngshooter is offline  
Old July 10, 2012, 11:13 AM   #14
Skadoosh
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 13, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,748
Quote:
Too much time is spent worrying about the tool, and too little on how to use it.
Considering that this is a firearms-centric web forum, I would expect there to be a LOT of time spent on discussing "tools"...
__________________
NRA Life Member (2003)
USN Retired
I think that one of the notions common to the anti-gunner is the idea that being a victim is 'noble'; as if it is better to be noble in your suffering than disruptive in your own defense.
Skadoosh is offline  
Old July 10, 2012, 11:35 AM   #15
misnomerga
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 137
That answers the question

Wyosmtih has some valid points. The right tool in the hands of the right person is what I am deriving. The mob hit man does not opt for a .44 mag to do his job but a little .22 applied precisely and accurately to the head is efficient and does the job fine! That is what I am tracking from Wyosmith. I confess that seeing other folks I know with ARs generates envy in me just to have it. Justifying it to myself is another thing in light of the fact I already can defend my abode with what I currently have, but like some junkie I sure would like to have it LOL
misnomerga is offline  
Old July 10, 2012, 01:11 PM   #16
youngunz4life
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2010
Location: United States of America
Posts: 1,877
misnomerga

Quote:
The mob hit man does not opt for a .44 mag to do his job but a little .22 applied precisely and accurately to the head is efficient and does the job fine!
that's sort of a dark example to use, but obviously the above statement is true: that is an execution shot. I know my mother-in-law has a better chance of waking up to bumps in the night with a shotgun though rather than a handgun. I mean you can use a .22 for HD but you don't opt for that choice, right?
__________________
"Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" -Admiral Farragut @ Battle of Mobile Bay 05AUG1864
youngunz4life is offline  
Old July 10, 2012, 01:15 PM   #17
youngunz4life
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2010
Location: United States of America
Posts: 1,877
Youngshooter

Quote:
Mossberg 500/Remington 870 in the shortened home defense models are both extremely viable options. I have also heard, although in much debate, is that birdshot is just as, if not more optimal of a load than 00 buckshot when in a home defense "face to face" confrontation. With that being said, none of what I said before is worth a grain of salt without proper practicing on the gun along with other family members in the household knowing how to handle it properly. I've read plenty of articles where little Jimmy stopped an intruder because he was practiced and knew what to do.
You're right I have seen this debate too and heard it as well on this forum. My thing is I have never considered birdshot by coincidence and other factors have led me away from that option: it is considered a use of lethal force no matter what you shoot, there is a better chance of a longer gunfight where you & your family remain in jeopardy longer, and so-on.

PS - all good points; it is just I wouldn't be able to get my mom-in-law to practice with a firearm as one of many examples. I can open a can of food with a steak knife too(I have done it). It is easier with a can opener on a swiss army knife, and it is even easier + more effective with a can opener.
__________________
"Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" -Admiral Farragut @ Battle of Mobile Bay 05AUG1864
youngunz4life is offline  
Old July 10, 2012, 01:24 PM   #18
Wyosmith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2010
Location: Shoshoni Wyoming
Posts: 1,001
If you like ARs get one. I have!
I love good ARs. In fact, if you get one in 6.8 SPC you have an extremely good White Tail rifle and Hog rifle too.

In the scenarios of thugs attacking your home you must think 1st about WHY they are attacking you, and for what scenario you are trying to prepare.

#1. You are "there", and they just happen to pick you.

Random crime is a fact of life and some folks have to deal with it.
In this case most criminals will flee if met with deadly force because they have nothing to gain from "winning the field". If you were facing about 5 thugs and you kill or wound a few of them, it's very likely the rest will flee because the cat's out of the bag, the cops are coming and any gains they were after are no longer available to them.
By keeping your mind in “Condition Yellow” and not being taken completely by surprise, you have the advantage of knowing the ground and the “battle field” much better than the attacker. Use that knowledge to place yourself in a safer place than the enemy is in, and use that knowledge to anticipate how the enemy may try to move on your position and lure them into making mistakes (in ways they can’t repeat.) A shot with anything form a quail gun loaded with #6 shot to a MAG machine gun is still a shot that wins--- if the enemy can’t see it coming until it’s too late.

#2 You are facing some enemies with an agenda.

Race war, political agendas, mob of “have nots” who want what you have…..and so on.
Very bad scenario.


These kinds of people have to be beaten so badly (or killed to the last man) that they don’t have a motivation or an ability to come back later. Again tactics will win or loose the battle. Tactics should dictate your weapon, but sometime in a fight the weapon has to dictate some of the tactics.
If, for example you are fighting with a deer rifle, suppressing fire is not something to rely on much, but accurate fast fire from cover is. It would be with an AR too (or any semi-auto rifle) but you can “hide behind your bullets” at times if you find the need, long enough to break contact momentarily with an auto with 8 round or more capacity. No so with a bolt action or lever action. If if you are defending, and you find yourself hiding behind your bullets you have already done something wrong but it may not be hopeless with an AR, AK, FN-FAL, M14 and so on.
Even a 10-22 with a 25 round mag is a real weapon if you know how to use it, and if you win, you will probably then have a new weapon. The one that used to belong to the enemy.
In this kind of fight I think the likelihood of having to deal with the courts later is slim. The society has already broken down beyond the point that such courts and lawyers are even considered at that point.

#3 You are attacked by a trained police or military unit.

The very worst scenario.
Here you have only one option if they start the fight, and that’s to break contact and come back to the fight another day when you are on the attack, not them.
Again tactics are what keeps you alive, not the kind of weapon you have. Weapons can help with tactics, but without good tactics the weapon will soon belong to the enemy.

In this kind of fight it's probably that the enemy IS the courts and you are the political target
Wyosmith is offline  
Old July 10, 2012, 01:37 PM   #19
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 7,414
All the guy asked is whether the AR is overkill for home defense. Will it work? Yes. Is it overkill. Yes.

Home defense does not imply race wars, being attacked by military or trained police, or even being confronted by 5 thugs. One, maybe two stupid thugs is what you will be dealing with in a home defense scenario at distances less than 10 yards. Is an AR really going to be that much more accurate than a good .45, 9mm, .40, or 10mm handgun at less than 10 yards? Regardless of whatever gun you are using - AR, 10mm handgun, etc., you still cannot fire more than 1 shot per trigger pull.

I can't be the only one who sees that the obvious answer to the question asked is "YES"?
Skans is offline  
Old July 10, 2012, 01:54 PM   #20
youngunz4life
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2010
Location: United States of America
Posts: 1,877
Skans

Quote:
All the guy asked is whether the AR is overkill for home defense. Will it work? Yes. Is it overkill. Yes.
There is a grey area though, Skans. If the OP owns an AR and that is the easiest thing to grab, he should not be timid about using any weapon to defend his family, himself, and/or his home. If the weapon is legal to own in his state of residence, I don't think it is overkill to use an AR in a home defense and/or home invasion scenario. I get your point, but nobody knows exactly what they will feel or the specific situation they will be in until it happens(hopefully it never will happen to any of us).
__________________
"Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" -Admiral Farragut @ Battle of Mobile Bay 05AUG1864
youngunz4life is offline  
Old July 10, 2012, 07:47 PM   #21
Young.Gun.612
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 28, 2010
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 400
From a purely home defense standpoint, I would venture that it is indeed overkill. If you have a 12 gauge and an M1 carbine there's no need (IMVHO) to add an AR.


BUT, if you're looking for an excuse to purchase one, my old standby reasoning is "Well I don't have one of those..."
Young.Gun.612 is offline  
Old July 10, 2012, 08:19 PM   #22
10-96
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 19, 2005
Location: Tx Panhandle Territory
Posts: 2,983
You've got something with a trigger on it. Get the generator! As much as I like shooting and the whole firearms sport- a person still has to look at their total package.... get a generator and think about AR's and such things later on when $$ isn't in such a crunch.
__________________
Rednecks... Keeping the woods critter-free since March 2, 1836. (TX Independence Day)

I'm going to use the words "clip" and "Long Colt" every chance I get. It grinds my gears to see new members attacked when we all know dang good and well what's being refered to.
10-96 is offline  
Old July 11, 2012, 03:47 PM   #23
Quentin2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2009
Location: NorthWest USA
Posts: 1,590
A quality lightweight AR is good to have handy. It and the 5.56 round are flexible, portable and a good solution for many rifle applications. I think a quality handgun is better for HD but like having a couple good ARs around too.
Quentin2 is offline  
Old July 11, 2012, 08:11 PM   #24
Justice06RR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 21, 2010
Location: Central FL
Posts: 1,187
Quote:
All the guy asked is whether the AR is overkill for home defense. Will it work? Yes. Is it overkill. Yes.

Home defense does not imply race wars, being attacked by military or trained police, or even being confronted by 5 thugs. One, maybe two stupid thugs is what you will be dealing with in a home defense scenario at distances less than 10 yards. Is an AR really going to be that much more accurate than a good .45, 9mm, .40, or 10mm handgun at less than 10 yards? Regardless of whatever gun you are using - AR, 10mm handgun, etc., you still cannot fire more than 1 shot per trigger pull.

I can't be the only one who sees that the obvious answer to the question asked is "YES"?
Apparently you are one of the only ones who thinks its overkill.

The OP specifically asked 100yr range, to which a pistol or shotgun will not be very effective. He already has a shotgun so that is covered (for close-range).

If you really have a valid reason to defend yourself, any weapon is fine weather its a rifle, a shotgun, pistol, or a knife. Its more a matter of using what you have available and using which works best in every situation.

Case in point, I have 2 AR15's for HD. Unfortunately I don't have a pistol or shotgun at the moment; my roomate does but I cant really count on him for my own safety. That and I carry knives. My bedroom is next to the front door and if I hear doorbell or a knock I can see who's outside the door via my window.

So to the OP, I would say yes go for the AR if the funds allow. Otherwise I the M1 is sufficient without a doubt. You could invest in more ammo or a generator as the alternative.
Justice06RR is offline  
Old July 12, 2012, 07:34 AM   #25
misnomerga
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 137
It is sad...

that we, as a nation, and as citizens are being confronted with the issue of concern for our own personal safety. I always get a chill of pride when I read or hear the phrase "Land of the Free, home of the Brave". Now I get a different kind of chill, faced with the prospect of having to think about defending myself and my family with the possibility of having to do that to the tune of 500+ yards and out. My fallback options are already in place in the 100 yard and in sector. I don't want to believe that I might have to face the reality of taking out scumbags at long range under the heading of HD.
misnomerga is offline  
Reply

Tags
ar15 , home defense

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:41 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2013 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13821 seconds with 7 queries