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Old July 14, 2012, 12:44 AM   #26
hermannr
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Merad: You have only taken the Anti's words for why no-one should carry and have selectively put them to use against college students.

So, have there been blood baths in Utah, CO, or OR since college students can carry there. The are colleges in WA that also allow carry by students and staff, and WSU allows staff to carry...heard of any blood baths in those schools???

Those arguments are as foundless with college students as they are with the general population.
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Old July 14, 2012, 07:48 AM   #27
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I do not believe allowing carry at GA Tech would really have much impact on the criminal activity
It is not about allowing carry to reduce crime. It is about allowing people to defend themselves. I do not believe the point is to reduce crime. That is a possible benefit.

Also, not in reference to the person I quoted but other comments. I'm really tired of the "drunken frat boy" argument. So drunken trailer trash (my roots!) should not be allowed to own guns either?

These are not college "kids". You can graduate high school, get a job, buy a car, and find your own place to live without college. If anything, the whole drunken frat boy image, which does not represent a majority of college students, is partially encouraged by a university system that routinely tells young adults they are not responsible enough to handle standard adult decisions despite attending an "institute of higher learning"

Funny how we expect more maturity out of a high school graduate who doesn't attend college.
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Old July 14, 2012, 07:55 AM   #28
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Personally, when I attended college, I was too busy with coursework, part-time jobs, friends, and family to get into the "drunken frat boy" thing all that much.

Seems a lot of my friends could say the same for their own college time.

These stereotypes antis throw around are retroactively offensive, even now.
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Old July 14, 2012, 12:44 PM   #29
hermannr
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Mleake: me too. 5 kids, just out of the military, 30+ years old with a full time job...party? you have to be kidding.

Or, our youngest...graduating Magna Cum Laude...wih a part time job...when did she have time to party?
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Old July 15, 2012, 06:11 AM   #30
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Of course drunken frat boy does not represent the typical male college student. Fraternaties are exclusive! The image is fairly accurate, however.
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Old July 15, 2012, 05:41 PM   #31
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Personally, when I attended college, I was too busy with coursework, part-time jobs, friends, and family to get into the "drunken frat boy" thing all that much.

Seems a lot of my friends could say the same for their own college time.

These stereotypes antis throw around are retroactively offensive, even now.
I am no anti and I resent your implication and inference - and I went to Ga Tech and was a frat member there so I know how those parties tend to go - and there is NO way guns should be allowed by any student living on campus - way too much booze and drugs and partying for folks to act with a clear mind in such a serious situation

Too bad you didn't indulge - you might have learned a few things....
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Old July 15, 2012, 05:51 PM   #32
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Perhaps... then again in my studies I learned about "projection."

Which is what some of our former drunken frat boys seem to be doing with regard to the rest of the collegiate population.
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Old July 15, 2012, 06:17 PM   #33
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I went to Ga Tech and was a frat member there so I know how those parties tend to go - and there is NO way guns should be allowed by any student living on campus - way too much booze and drugs and partying for folks to act with a clear mind in such a serious situation
I'm sorry, I may have missed something but it seems to me like you are saying that because the minority of college students (fraternities) indulge in partying and illegal drugs, that the majority of level headed people shouldn't have the right to carry? Are there not parties and illegal drugs outside of college? Maybe fraternities should ban carrying and let the level headed students choose to carry if they wish.
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Old July 15, 2012, 07:04 PM   #34
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Wrong, and if you read my previous post you would have a thorough understanding
SO let's start again at the beginning for you
IF you can easily separate guns from the frat parties, there should not be a problem with guns ion campus

All one has to do is watch "Girls Gone Wild" or any of a variety of college spring break videos to realize that "things" do happen
Not everyone sits alone in a dorm room with their books.

Until you can eliminate the booze and guns together, the answer is no
the potential is way to horrific

Last edited by Tom Servo; July 16, 2012 at 01:28 PM. Reason: Deleted snark
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Old July 15, 2012, 07:25 PM   #35
Botswana
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We keep coming back to this argument -

Quote:
Until you can eliminate the booze and guns together, the answer is no
the potential is way to horrific
There are parties, booze, and drugs in the real world as well. Again, we have to stop treating colleges as some kind of magical place where this happens and nowhere else. We have to stop acting like these are "kids" and start expecting them to be adults.

We also shouldn't penalize an entire campus because of a minority of dunderheads. If that were the case we might as well outlaw guns for general ownership as well.

Any statement you make for why students should not carry could be applied to the populace at large.
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Old July 15, 2012, 07:34 PM   #36
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We also shouldn't penalize an entire campus because of a minority of dunderheads.
Agreed.

Are there folks in college who live to swill beer and beat their girlfriends up? Yes there are, just as with the general population. Folks who do bad things, with guns or not, should be punished, but that punishment should not apply retroactively to those lacking self-control or a moral compass.

Me? I was just too busy with a double major and a job to engage in all that silliness.
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Old July 15, 2012, 08:01 PM   #37
raimius
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Did I really just read an argument that we should ban guns at colleges because of what is seen on "Girls Gone Wild" videos? How does that make ANY sense whatsoever?
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Old July 15, 2012, 08:10 PM   #38
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Did I really just read an argument that we should ban guns at colleges because of what is seen on "Girls Gone Wild" videos? How does that make ANY sense whatsoever?
Agreed - that's like using episodes of "Cops" as evidence that the general populace shouldn't be allowed to have guns, either.
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Old July 15, 2012, 08:17 PM   #39
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Did I really just read an argument that we should ban guns at colleges because of what is seen on "Girls Gone Wild" videos? How does that make ANY sense whatsoever?
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Old July 15, 2012, 08:29 PM   #40
oneounceload
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Have a it then
I vote no, will ALWAYS vote no,
and will call my elected officials to always vote no

But then I also think you need to pass a common sense test to own a gun and to vote

Added:

BTW, if its only a few dunderheads getting drunk/high and therefore is no worry - then your argument about carrying to prevent some campus sniper is ludicrous and even more asinine as more kids get drunk and stoned on Friday and Saturday nights on campus than grab a gun and become a sniper

Last edited by oneounceload; July 15, 2012 at 08:41 PM.
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Old July 15, 2012, 08:49 PM   #41
Botswana
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No one said a thing about campus snipers.

Now you're just making stuff up.

Again, any argument you make against campus carry could easily be applied to the general populace. There is nothing going on at a college campus that doesn't happen elsewhere. From boring lectures to drug feuled casual hook-ups, all these things happen elsewhere.

Saying you can't carry on campus because of [X] could be applied anywhere else. If you don't believe carrying on a college campus is safe you are essentially saying carrying a weapon is unsafe period.
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Old July 15, 2012, 09:25 PM   #42
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If people are considered legal adults for all the liabilities, then they should be legal adults for all the perks.

If, on the other hand, you want to treat the under-21 year old crowd as overgrown kids, then you should not be able to charge them as adults, or require them to pay bills, etc.

Hey, here's a thought - insurance rates are higher for under-25 year olds. Using some of the logic introduced in this thread, maybe 24 and under should not be allowed to drive.

ACA requires insurance companies to allow under-26 year olds to remain on parents' policies as supported minors. Maybe we could treat 25 and under as kids?

But again, if we are going to treat people as legal adults, we need to do so across the board. If folks like oneounceload want to restrict the rights of a block of adults, then maybe folks like oneounceload should push to raise the age of majority, and to restrict "adult" prosecutions of minors.

Otherwise, I'd have to say, with "pro"s like these, who needs "anti"s?

Last edited by Tom Servo; July 16, 2012 at 01:29 PM. Reason: Removed response to snark
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Old July 15, 2012, 10:03 PM   #43
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Maybe we could treat 25 and under as kids?
Actually, the VPC and Brady Campaign do just that when they massage DoJ statistics on youth firearms violence.

Quote:
even more asinine as more kids get drunk and stoned on Friday and Saturday nights on campus than grab a gun and become a sniper
Actually, most of 'em get wasted and watch those TFL Staff Gone Wild videos I sent out last year.

Let's do place nice, or I'll start sending those same videos to certain members. Trust me, you do not want to see our bikini wrestling bit.
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Last edited by Tom Servo; July 15, 2012 at 10:22 PM.
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Old July 16, 2012, 11:01 AM   #44
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I'd like to know what it is about a college campus that some seem to think magically turns otherwise responsible people into John Belushi's character from Animal House. Afterall, we're not talking about anyone owning or carrying a gun that can't already legally do so anywhere else.

There seems to be this idea that all of the "drunken frat boys" are going to suddenly run out and buy a gun just because campus carry is allowed. No one is suggesting that we make buying or carrying a gun any easier for college students than anyone else, only that Second Amendment rights don't magically disappear when one seeks higher education.

It seems to me that many of the people who wring their hands over "drunken frat boys with guns" usually turn out to be former "drunken frat boys" themselves. It seems that many of these people assume that, because they lacked self-control at a certain age, so too must everyone else. This seems like a rather arrogant and closed-minded world view IMHO. Personally, as a current college student who does not drink excessively, has never used drugs, and never been in legal trouble more serious than a traffic ticket, I take personal offense at being stripped of my god-given right to self defense because of other people's lack of self-control and personal accountability.
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Old July 16, 2012, 12:21 PM   #45
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Wrong, and if you read my previous post you would have a thorough understanding
SO let's start again at the beginning for you
IF you can easily separate guns from the frat parties, there should not be a problem with guns ion campus
Ok, so I quoted the majority of your post, rephrased it into a question but you tell me I'm wrong but you say the same thing as my post. That because of frat parties, campus carry should be illegal. That is what you said right? So nobody outside of college likes to let loose once in a while? So the childishness of a few supersedes the rights of the many?

I offered a remedy to suit your needs that fraternities should outlaw carrying but you said nothing, so it's all or nothing. Ok.

You have your views and I have mine and I will not try to make you change but be prepared to defend your views. And using Girls Gone Wild as a creditable documentary is not a successful way to defending your views.
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Last edited by Tom Servo; July 16, 2012 at 01:32 PM. Reason: Removed response to snark
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Old July 17, 2012, 06:00 AM   #46
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Well, one of the things that tends to make college students a tad less responsible is that they may be away from home, just like when they go to Florida on spring break, or even to Ocean City.
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Old July 17, 2012, 08:35 AM   #47
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I am concerned about the concept of denying someone their Constitutional rights because of something they “might” do. This seems to be a more and more common philosophy while at the same time being reluctant to hold people responsible for the things they actually do.
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Old July 17, 2012, 09:17 AM   #48
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If we don't hold people responsible for what they do, why are the prisons full? But on the other hand, we have a long history of denying people constitutional rights in this country. It's one way of being conservative. Constitutional rights are priveleges not extended to everyone, obviously.
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Last edited by BlueTrain; July 18, 2012 at 06:29 AM.
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Old July 17, 2012, 09:44 AM   #49
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Constitutional rights are privaleges not extended to everyone, obviously.
Yes, understood I am not an anarchist and recognize that as a society we do place necessary restrictions on certain freedoms. However, as it relates to the Second Amendment it appears some are suggesting that certain adults should not be allowed to exercise those rights because of a concern for something they might do.
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Old July 17, 2012, 06:41 PM   #50
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why are the prisons full?
In part because we have so many laws. You see, the more restrictive a law is, the more people will refuse to obey it and thus become criminals. In the most basic sense, there are only two reasons that people obey a given law: either they respect and agree with the rationale behind the law or they fear the punishment for disobedience. For example, most people do not commit murder or theft not because these behaviors are illegal, but because they are considered morally wrong by the majority of people. However, most people pay their taxes not because they really want to give the government their money, but because they fear the repercussions of refusing to do so.

When a law is passed prohibiting something that someone does not find morally wrong and the person believes that they can avoid punishment or that the punishment is not severe enough to be worth obeying the law, the person is then more likely to disobey the law and thus become a criminal. This is why laws such as speed limits, seatbelt requirements, and drug laws are broken fairly commonly.
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